Helpful Reply[ANSWERED] Sonar X3 Producer VST3 Bug

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Disrezoloution
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2013/10/05 03:46:18 (permalink)

[ANSWERED] Sonar X3 Producer VST3 Bug

Anyone know how to get the keyboard Yamaha MOX8 to work with sonar using the VST???? Called the music store and all they were trying to do was sell me Cubase.
post edited by Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk] - 2013/10/09 11:20:39
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Re: MOX8 VST 2013/10/06 03:42:34 (permalink)
You don't provide much information what you did so far?
 
Are you familiar with that VST2 stuff need to be put in a folder that is scanned by plugins scanner?
 
Either add a folder to VST scanner, or put the VST in an existing folder where your other VST2 stuff is.
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jeffb63
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Re: MOX8 VST 2013/10/06 05:53:25 (permalink)
If it's like the Motif editor it will be a VST3 plugin.
 
You'll need X3 (or Cubase) to run it.

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markyzno
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Re: MOX8 VST 2013/10/06 06:00:17 (permalink)
Isnt it a VSTi?

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Mystic38
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Re: MOX8 VST 2013/10/06 06:58:00 (permalink)
Disrezoloution
Anyone know how to get the keyboard Yamaha MOX8 to work with sonar using the VST???? Called the music store and all they were trying to do was sell me Cubase.




I have been a vocal proponent of VST3 adoption for two years and this is why :D
 
The Yamaha editors are VST3 only. I have the S70xs, (with the same motif xs architecture as your mox)  so the editors are likely almost identical.. it runs fine as a VST3 inside of x3. [edit] see post below
 
It will not work in x2, you can use it as a standalone editor, you just need to separately save all your x2a setups
post edited by Mystic38 - 2013/10/09 07:28:01

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Disrezoloution
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Re: MOX8 VST 2013/10/08 00:38:09 (permalink)
Mystic38
Disrezoloution
Anyone know how to get the keyboard Yamaha MOX8 to work with sonar using the VST???? Called the music store and all they were trying to do was sell me Cubase.




I have been a vocal proponent of VST3 adoption for two years and this is why :D
 
The Yamaha editors are VST3 only. I have the S70xs, (with the same motif xs architecture as your mox)  so the editors are likely almost identical.. it runs fine as a VST3 inside of x3.
 
It will not work in x2, you can use it as a standalone editor, you just need to separately save all your x2a setups

I have Producer X3 and it shows up in the vst3 but it says it wont connect in sonar. The stand alone works fine but not in sonar. My Korg Krome vst stopped working when I installed X3 over X2. GRRRRRRR
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Mystic38
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Re: MOX8 VST 2013/10/08 11:27:54 (permalink)
hmm..
 
ok..it looks like when I said "it works fine".. I actually meant " I can see that there is a VST3 and I can insert the VST and the editor window opens"..
 
With preferences set to have all 5 of the s70xs ports active for both input and output, I get a recurring error that says " the host ports are not properly set"
 
so, while I can open the editor window, I cannot communicate either setups, changes or play midi data to the device",
 
I will take another look later today wheni have more time but perhaps I suggest you change the title to reflect "X3 VST3 bug" or similar to get some attention?
 
 regards,
 
post edited by Mystic38 - 2013/10/08 11:53:28

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Mystic38
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[ANSWERED] X3 VST3 bug : Unable to communicate with Yamaha S70xs 2013/10/08 17:42:50 (permalink)
In my case, x3 see that the vst3 is there, it opens the editor window but there is no communication with the instrument... the VST editor states "ports in the host app have not been properly set"..
 
I am already having issues with the Access Virus VST3, but at least i can use the VST2 version while this is sorted.
 
Another user, with a Yamaha MOX8 is having similar issues with the VST3 editor, so can anyone with x3 confirm any operating motif based vst3 editor?..
 
 
post edited by Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk] - 2013/10/09 11:17:42

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Mystic38
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Re: X3 VST3 issues : Unable to communicate with Yamaha S70xs 2013/10/09 05:52:42 (permalink)
Was up early this morning so upgraded to x3b.. in a hope that this VST3 bug may have been fixed
 
However it is exactly the same. there is zero communication between the vst3 editor in sonar and the synth..
 
Any bakers around?..

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Mystic38
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Re: X3 VST3 issues : Unable to communicate with Yamaha S70xs 2013/10/09 06:35:52 (permalink)
CWBRN-20368 submitted

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Disrezoloution
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Re: MOX8 VST 2013/10/09 07:03:41 (permalink)
Mystic38
hmm..
 
ok..it looks like when I said "it works fine".. I actually meant " I can see that there is a VST3 and I can insert the VST and the editor window opens"..
 
With preferences set to have all 5 of the s70xs ports active for both input and output, I get a recurring error that says " the host ports are not properly set"
 
so, while I can open the editor window, I cannot communicate either setups, changes or play midi data to the device",
 
I will take another look later today wheni have more time but perhaps I suggest you change the title to reflect "X3 VST3 bug" or similar to get some attention?
 
 regards,
 


Changed the title.
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: MOX8 VST 2013/10/09 07:59:04 (permalink)
Hmm, it would be interesting to know what that error message means and what the plugin is expecting from the host. I'll contact Steinberg and ask for more info on this. Its possible that it requires some extended support from the host beyond VST3 or is using some VST3 feature that we don't support yet. I'll see what I can find.

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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: X3 VST3 issues : Unable to communicate with Yamaha S70xs 2013/10/09 08:17:22 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Mystic38 2013/10/09 08:26:06
I replied in the other thread - we'll follow up and see what we can find.

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Mystic38
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Re: X3 VST3 issues : Unable to communicate with Yamaha S70xs 2013/10/09 08:25:41 (permalink)
Thank you very much Noel!

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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: X3 VST3 issues : Unable to communicate with Yamaha S70xs 2013/10/09 11:17:24 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Thedoccal 2017/03/14 02:12:11
I got a pretty quick answer from Steinberg on this. 
"The reason this fails is because this is because the Editor makes use of some private interfaces to look up MIDI and audio ports"
 
So this is not a SONAR VST3 issue per-se. If Yamaha exposes the private interfaces in the future we can consider implementing them - as long as its not a huge undertaking :)
 

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Mystic38
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Re: X3 VST3 issues : Unable to communicate with Yamaha S70xs 2013/10/10 08:49:20 (permalink)
It may be that they are referring to the 5 USB ports (ports, not channels) that are associated with the s70xs/motif?..
 
port #1 is keyboard
port #2 is remote control surface (allows s70xs to control Sonar transport)
port #3 is midi thru from s70xs
port #4 is reserved for VST3 editor
port #5 is remote editor (allows s70xs/ to control vsti)
 
So, There are two USB midi ports required to be connected ports for the VST editor to operate. s70xs port #1 and s70xs port #4.
 
In the VST editor setup screen: 
 
a) Port #4 seems to be connected correctly : for both Port 4 MIDI IN and Port 4 MIDI OUT it is possible to see via a drop down list ALL the USB midi ports connected to Sonar... so s70xs-4 is selected for each. (this selection was done by me on first launch)
b) Port #1 MIDI In is blank (this is correct I believe) and Port #1 MIDI Out is "not assigned" . This, I believe is an issue as there is no list of available ports to select from...
 
I have launched a thread in Motifator and Phil Clendeninn "BadMister" is very keen to assist in getting this working.
 
link http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/469746/
thx
post edited by Mystic38 - 2013/10/10 09:35:56

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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: X3 VST3 issues : Unable to communicate with Yamaha S70xs 2013/10/10 09:55:42 (permalink)
If I understood correctly they have a custom interface to request ports from the DAW. It wouldn't make sense to use the ports directly from the plugin since they could be in use.
We do the same kind of thing in our external insert so its a well defined issue.

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Mystic38
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Re: X3 VST3 issues : Unable to communicate with Yamaha S70xs 2013/10/10 11:35:06 (permalink)
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
If I understood correctly they have a custom interface to request ports from the DAW. It wouldn't make sense to use the ports directly from the plugin since they could be in use.
We do the same kind of thing in our external insert so its a well defined issue.


What you heard from Steinberg was a confusing statement to Phil Clendeninn - "BadMister" ,who is the predominant Yamaha Motif expert at @ motifator..
I would wonder that if this was a "custom" protocol, then it would not be likely that in the setup of the Editor, port 4 has available in the dropdown menu all of Sonar's USB midi ports?..so the Editor clearly can see the USB ports.
 
Port 1 is for Keyboard data. The input is hardwired to the VST editor input so is left blank, the output should be selectable from the same list of USB midi ports available to that shown in port 4....
 
just a thought.... is there any likelihood that there is an issue because this is an external VST (ie going over USB to hardware) rather than a VSTi where output routing is internal ?..
 
thanks again, Ian

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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: X3 VST3 issues : Unable to communicate with Yamaha S70xs 2013/10/10 20:49:59 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Thedoccal 2017/03/14 02:13:53
Well the steinberg message clearly indicated that they had a custom API so I assume this is fact.
A vst plugin can't open ports directly without conflicting with the host using the same ports so there would have to be some kind of handshake. An instrument editor is completely different from a normal VSTi.

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Mystic38
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Re: X3 VST3 issues : Unable to communicate with Yamaha S70xs 2013/10/11 09:01:00 (permalink)
I have asked Phil Clendeninn to request clarification from Steinberg regarding the ports issue, and as he has been a good customer advocate for some years hopefully he can encourage some dialog on the topic to help get this going. I will add that some quick web research shows that the statement may well indeed be correct, with FL Studio and Studio One users also posting similar issues.
 
Here is the nutshell of the roadblock issue, two images of the VST editor setup window.. one (for Port 4) correctly showing all usb midi ports and one (for port 1) showing no access to Sonar's USB midi ports
 

 
and here for port 1
 

 
I have already offered to buy a copy of X3 for Phil if that will help get this moving and if it gets to that point, I would also cheerfully drive to your site in Boston with my S70xs to help with testing if necessary.. 
 
thanks again, Ian

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Mystic38
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Re: X3 VST3 issues : Unable to communicate with Yamaha S70xs 2013/10/15 16:20:11 (permalink)
I investigated this issue with a different VST3 supporting DAW and the symptoms I had seen with the S70XS mirrored more like that seen by user grnbriar in this thread http://forum.cakewalk.com/Sonar-X3-and-Motif-XF-VST3-m2910281.aspx 
 
In Sonar preferences, the additional synth USB midi ports, particularly port 4 must NOT be checked as midi IN or midi OUT ports. With these ports checked, there is no communication between the VST Editor and the synth, with them unchecked, then the VST Editor can control the synth.
 
So, currently the situation for the Motif and the S70XS is that the VST Editor can control the synth and its parameters, however keyboard data cannot be passed through the Editor.
 
The workaround for this seems to be to use the synth USB port 1 midi port rather than the VST ports for both midi in TO Sonar (if using as a controller), and midi out FROM Sonar to the synth. ie "synth -1" rather than "synth VST -1".  This also works also for recording arp out from the synth.
 
So, in summary, try this:
1. Ensure the only USB midi port checked in Sonar Preferences Midi (in & out) is port 1
2. instantiate the VST Editor
3. In the VST Editor midi source track, change the midi output assignment to the synth usb port 1 (in my cases its S70XS-1)
4. Add audio track, place it in the Editor folder and assign its input to your synth audio return.
 
Example below:
trk 6 : midi source on ch 1 to synth directly
trk 7 : arp output on synth ch 3
trk 8 : audio return on (in my case) motu 828 mkIII hybrid ch5/6
 

 
 
hope this helps someone get going...

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JayCee99
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Re: X3 VST3 issues : Unable to communicate with Yamaha S70xs 2014/04/06 12:01:55 (permalink)
I stumbled on this thread and I have updated the post at motifator with some more info.  I have the same problems with both Studio One 2 and Sonar X3 with the VST Editor.
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/469746/P0/
 
Hopefully Yamaha fixes this issue.  I see that Phil Clandestine took offense when you suggested that its functionality is restricted in DAWs other than Cubase, however I agree with your thought that Yamaha seems to have done this.

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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: X3 VST3 issues : Unable to communicate with Yamaha S70xs 2014/04/06 12:51:10 (permalink)
I looked through a bit of that thread and it seems that they are implying that  there is some kind of API for "external VST3's". In all my reading of the VST3 spec I did not come across anything like that. AFIK there is no published way for a host to know that a physical MIDI port is in use by a VST3 instrument.
 
I suggest having a developer contact from Yamaha that makes the instrument contact us, so we can understand better what they are expecting from the host.  If they need SONAR X3 for testing please have a representative contact us via this form and we'll be happy to send them a NFR copy.

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Mystic38
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Re: X3 VST3 issues : Unable to communicate with Yamaha S70xs 2014/04/06 15:12:03 (permalink)
Thanks for that,
With the write up I had also made a vid of the workaround here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDCprqddPlg (which you have probably already seen) and it seems to have helped a number of folks. Since the end result is a solid workaround then the synth is working in every aspect that I need, so I stopped pursuing an elegant solution with Yamaha.
 
rlared
I stumbled on this thread and I have updated the post at motifator with some more info.  I have the same problems with both Studio One 2 and Sonar X3 with the VST Editor.
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/469746/P0/
 
Hopefully Yamaha fixes this issue.  I see that Phil Clandestine took offense when you suggested that its functionality is restricted in DAWs other than Cubase, however I agree with your thought that Yamaha seems to have done this.





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Re: X3 VST3 issues : Unable to communicate with Yamaha S70xs 2014/04/07 13:30:35 (permalink)
Yeah the main thing is that as long as the Port 4 is communicating, it's pretty much equally as functional with the workaround.  To be honest, I bought the MOX thinking that I was going to use the on-board sounds for recording more than I do.  I find it easy to select a sound with the VST Editor, but for any sort of tweaking I don't like the interface and reach for one of the included instruments in Sonar instead.  But the MIDI/audio over USB is amazing at least.

Sonar Platinum
Audio Interface: Focusrite 18i8 ASIO Interface 
Keys: Korg Kronos 88, Alesis VI25
Windows 8.1 x64 Laptop, 8GB RAM, i7 CPU
#25
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