ASIO4All - whats the point of it?

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JazzSinger
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2010/10/20 06:51:12 (permalink)

ASIO4All - whats the point of it?

I always had random hangs with the ASIO drivers supplied by Tascam for my US-1641; even the very latest drivers.
 
On a recommendation, I installed ASIO4All and from then on it ran reliably.
 
Recently I learned ASIO4All just wraps the WDM drivers! So I decided to try using just WDM for a while, and whaddayaknow, no problems (although I haven't checked latency, but it surely cannot be worse?).
 
So my question is: What is the point of ASIO4All? I see no advantage in using it.
 
I am now thinking of just deinstalling ASIO4All and continue using WDM directly.
 
If I do this, will I lose out on something?
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    John T
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    Re:ASIO4All - whats the point of it? 2010/10/20 06:52:55 (permalink)
    You shouldn't have any problems, no. ASIO4ALL was made to be a way of disguising WDM-only hardware so that ASIO-only software would talk to it, mainly.
    #2
    mudgel
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    Re:ASIO4All - whats the point of it? 2010/10/20 07:07:50 (permalink)
    As well as the above it can also improve the functionality of poorly written WDM drivers

    Mike V. (MUDGEL)

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    daveny5
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    Re:ASIO4All - whats the point of it? 2010/10/20 08:56:25 (permalink)
    ASIO4ALL is not even a Cakewalk product so why would you lose anything?

    Dave
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    bitflipper
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    Re:ASIO4All - whats the point of it? 2010/10/20 10:30:00 (permalink)
    I am now thinking of just deinstalling ASIO4All and continue using WDM directly. If I do this, will I lose out on something?

    No, you won't lose anything except an unnecessary extra layer of software.


    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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    FastBikerBoy
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    Re:ASIO4All - whats the point of it? 2010/10/20 10:51:13 (permalink)
    I agree with what many have said so far. ASIO4ALL is great if you have flakey or unstable interface drivers and completely un-necessary if you don't.

    I used to use it all the time with an ALesis Multimix I had as the drivers were unstable and ASIO4ALL made it almost crash free. As soon as Alesis bought out some stable drivers I un-installed it.
    #6
    CJaysMusic
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    Re:ASIO4All - whats the point of it? 2010/10/20 11:27:45 (permalink)
    Yea, its the Hail Marry of sound card drivers. When all else fails, try ASIO4all.
    Cj

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    John T
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    Re:ASIO4All - whats the point of it? 2010/10/20 11:45:22 (permalink)
    Ha!
    #8
    benstat
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    Re:ASIO4All - whats the point of it? 2010/10/20 12:27:49 (permalink)
    Just as an example, I sometimes use my old laptop which only has an onboard sound card and WDM driver. It just doesn't work at all with Sonar in WDM mode (constant dropouts etc), but as soon as I installed ASIO4all it magically starting working fine! Go figure!
    As others have said though, don't install it on a system with a decent audio interface and ASIO drivers - it just gets in the way.
    #9
    bitflipper
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    Re:ASIO4All - whats the point of it? 2010/10/20 13:34:19 (permalink)
    I have a laptop with a crapola soundcard that I run SONAR on when traveling. The only way I could get it to work was by using ASIO4All. So A4A is not useless. But for any serious audio workstation with a serious audio interface it's quite superfluous. You wouldn't know this by some of the glowing reviews I've read online, which often attribute A4A with impossible capabilities such as reducing latency.


    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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    #10
    Cactus Music
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    Re:ASIO4All - whats the point of it? 2010/10/20 14:23:51 (permalink)
    Jazzsinger, Which OS are you using and which driver version?
    I have the us1641 and found the only drivers that did not crash were the originals that came on disk 1.0. All others crashed Sonar.
    I wrote to Tascam support and they replied that version 1 is all you need for XP32 bit. Later versions however support both 64 bit and W7. I'm interested to find someone who is using these successfully before I upgrade my OS.

    Johnny V  
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    #11
    LJB
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    Re:ASIO4All - whats the point of it? 2010/10/20 17:09:04 (permalink)
    Well, my RME HDSP 9652 just took one sniff at ASIO4ALL, saw the Yamaha i88's plugged into the FW port, and said "Nein, ich bin ein soloist!" or something to that effect! Never got it to work with THAT setup! :O)

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    #12
    wormser
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    Re:ASIO4All - whats the point of it? 2010/10/21 05:25:36 (permalink)
    CJaysMusic


    Yea, its the Hail Marry of sound card drivers. When all else fails, try ASIO4all.
    Cj


    LMAO...
    Good one!

    One thing I don't understand is, if people are paying $300+ for Sonar, Cubase, whatever, they should be at least well seasoned prosumer type users and more than likely professionals at some level.

    So why would these same people want to use a $99.00 Soundblaster or some on board audio chipset instead of a dedicated professional or semi-professional audio card which will include proper low latency drivers?

    It doesn't make sense to me.

    It's like buying a BMW and then putting the cheapest tires Sears makes on it.

    Clue me in because I just don't get it ?



    post edited by wormser - 2010/10/21 05:29:32
    #13
    thomasabarnes
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    Re:ASIO4All - whats the point of it? 2010/10/21 05:48:33 (permalink)
    Well, my RME HDSP 9652

     
    Man, you shouldn't need to use ASIO4All with a RME audio interface! Users here who use RME products attest that RME has excellent support with updated ASIO driver releases which makes RME audio interfaces capable of stable low latency performance.
     
    You probably need to ask some questions here, so you can get your RME product working as well as other RME product users here.


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    #14
    JazzSinger
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    Re:ASIO4All - whats the point of it? 2010/10/21 06:11:43 (permalink)
    Cactus Music


    Jazzsinger, Which OS are you using and which driver version?
    I have the us1641 and found the only drivers that did not crash were the originals that came on disk 1.0. All others crashed Sonar.
    I wrote to Tascam support and they replied that version 1 is all you need for XP32 bit. Later versions however support both 64 bit and W7. I'm interested to find someone who is using these successfully before I upgrade my OS.
    WinXP32SP3, driver version 2.00 (the latest 32 bit one).
     
    Only the originals do not crash?!? That is useful information!
    I cannot recall if I had problems with the originals.
    Whenever Tascam posted new drivers, I dutifully installed them.
     
    OK, I'll try that. Original CD-supplied drivers only.
     
    Many thanks!
     
    PS: Just fyi, the crash happens when starting or stopping recording.
    Everything freezes; keyboard, mouse, everything.
     
    Only possibility left is switching the PC off at the switch and restarting.
     
    Happens unpredictably. I can have an evening with no problems, other
    evenings two, three times it hangs.
     
    At first I blamed my PC. Then I got a new laptop, and I had the same issues!
    But on my laptop, I downloaded and installed the 2.00 drivers direct.
    Must try from the CD.
     
    Apart from that, this is an incredible interface. I do entire bands, live, everything
    including entire drumkit miked. 8 microphone ins, 2 for DI bass or keys, and
    on the 4 line ins I have two little Mackie mixers, so I really have 12 microphone ins.
    Great!
    post edited by JazzSinger - 2010/10/21 06:22:25
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    Storm
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    Re:ASIO4All - whats the point of it? 2010/10/21 11:42:35 (permalink)
    Cj's response is one of the best ever here. Well said. :) It made me howl.

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    EddieZilker
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    Re:ASIO4All - whats the point of it? 2010/10/21 12:55:21 (permalink)
    CJaysMusic


    Yea, its the Hail Marry of sound card drivers. When all else fails, try ASIO4all.
    Cj


    Sig Worthy!


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    Beagle
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    Re:ASIO4All - whats the point of it? 2010/10/21 13:03:51 (permalink)
    bitflipper


    I have a laptop with a crapola soundcard that I run SONAR on when traveling. The only way I could get it to work was by using ASIO4All. So A4A is not useless. But for any serious audio workstation with a serious audio interface it's quite superfluous. You wouldn't know this by some of the glowing reviews I've read online, which often attribute A4A with impossible capabilities such as reducing latency.

    dave - not trying to say you're wrong, but I help a lot of people in the lower forums, Home Studio and Music Creator (that's why I have such a high post count but don' show up in the sonar forum very often).  I've helped a lot of people who cannot get their onboard soundcard to work in WDM driver mode, but can get it to work using ASIO4ALL.  I don't know enough about the code in ASIO4ALL to know why this works since it's simply supposed to be a WDM wrapper, but I've seen it numerous times.
     
    so my point is that ASIO4ALL can reduce latency because with these people their choice is either MME driver mode or ASIO driver mode using ASIO4ALL.  since MME is going to be worse latency than WDM or ASIO then it follows that using ASIO4ALL can reduce latency.

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    #18
    FastBikerBoy
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    Re:ASIO4All - whats the point of it? 2010/10/21 13:20:55 (permalink)
    Beagle


    bitflipper


    I have a laptop with a crapola soundcard that I run SONAR on when traveling. The only way I could get it to work was by using ASIO4All. So A4A is not useless. But for any serious audio workstation with a serious audio interface it's quite superfluous. You wouldn't know this by some of the glowing reviews I've read online, which often attribute A4A with impossible capabilities such as reducing latency.

    dave - not trying to say you're wrong, but I help a lot of people in the lower forums, Home Studio and Music Creator (that's why I have such a high post count but don' show up in the sonar forum very often).  I've helped a lot of people who cannot get their onboard soundcard to work in WDM driver mode, but can get it to work using ASIO4ALL.  I don't know enough about the code in ASIO4ALL to know why this works since it's simply supposed to be a WDM wrapper, but I've seen it numerous times.
     
    so my point is that ASIO4ALL can reduce latency because with these people their choice is either MME driver mode or ASIO driver mode using ASIO4ALL.  since MME is going to be worse latency than WDM or ASIO then it follows that using ASIO4ALL can reduce latency.


    As I said earlier I used to use ASIO4ALL with an Alesis Multimix and I always achieved lower stable latency times than I could with either choice of the Alesis drivers. I know it doesn't make sense but I can only report what I found.

    I did see it mentioned once that ASIO4ALL was warping the figures somehow to make it look good, maybe it was I don't know. It was definitely more stable though than the Alesis XP drivers. The Alesis Windows 7 x64 driver was a huge improvement though so when I upgraded OS ASIO4ALL went.
    #19
    bitflipper
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    Re:ASIO4All - whats the point of it? 2010/10/21 15:23:07 (permalink)

    so my point is that ASIO4ALL can reduce latency because with these people their choice is either MME driver mode or ASIO driver mode using ASIO4ALL. since MME is going to be worse latency than WDM or ASIO then it follows that using ASIO4ALL can reduce latency.

    Good point, Beagle. It was the same situation for me: my only alternative on my laptop was MME. So yes, ASIO4All on top of WDM is going to be more efficient than MME.

    Of course, this doesn't apply to the OP, who has a working WDM driver. For him, losing ASIO4All will have no negative consequences and will actually reduce overhead a little. In the future, I will modify my ASIO4All opinions to append the caveat that ASIO4All can indeed reduce latency - if your only alternative is MME.


    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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    #20
    eikelbijter
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    Re:ASIO4All - whats the point of it? 2010/10/21 17:25:12 (permalink)
    ASIO4ALL enables me to use my Acer AS1410 at low enough latency with the built-in sound to use it for live gigs as a sound source! The difference over the stock drivers is astounding. It actually works better than for instance an MBox......

    R

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    #21
    Cactus Music
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    Re:ASIO4All - whats the point of it? 2010/10/21 20:37:25 (permalink)
    Great I hope that using the original drivers works for you too. Tascam did not even attach any release notes to those new  drivers so it's not clear what bugs,if any, they fixed. I beleieve the new drivers are strictly for the newer OS.  I tried all the newer versions trying to get better RTL and all of them crashed Sonar. I tried on 2 different computers with same results.

    There is a thread down in the Hardware d g the Tascam us1641. Interesting test results reguarding round trip latency.

    http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=2090754

    Johnny V  
    Cakelab  
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    #22
    Jonbouy
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    Re:ASIO4All - whats the point of it? 2010/10/21 23:52:43 (permalink)
    wormser


    CJaysMusic


    Yea, its the Hail Marry of sound card drivers. When all else fails, try ASIO4all.
    Cj


    LMAO...
    Good one!

    One thing I don't understand is, if people are paying $300+ for Sonar, Cubase, whatever, they should be at least well seasoned prosumer type users and more than likely professionals at some level.

    So why would these same people want to use a $99.00 Soundblaster or some on board audio chipset instead of a dedicated professional or semi-professional audio card which will include proper low latency drivers?

    It doesn't make sense to me.

    It's like buying a BMW and then putting the cheapest tires Sears makes on it.

    Clue me in because I just don't get it ?


    Well it may be pointless to attempt to clue you in as there are several reasons that have been given why it's useful in certain circumstances already.  Just re-read the thread from outside the smug bubble you and a coupla others seem to be in.

    And incidentally when you buy a BMW, trust me the tyres are included.

    Perhaps you could clue me in as to why it is desirable to spend more money on gear than you actually make with said gear.  I don't know that's true of you but it does seem a strangely fashionable attitude among many so called 'pros'.

    To the OP though, certainly there's no need to use it if your native drivers perform better.
    post edited by Jonbouy - 2010/10/22 00:18:22

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    Jonbouy
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    Re:ASIO4All - whats the point of it? 2010/10/22 00:02:49 (permalink)

    I will modify my ASIO4All opinions to append the caveat that ASIO4All can indeed reduce latency - if your only alternative is MME.


    Or indeed if the app used needs an ASIO output and again if the WDM drivers don't play nice without being thusly wrapped. Which are two other situations where I've ended up using it as a 'get out of jail' type emergency measure.

    I'm not sure where the hail Mary comes in but A4A can be a handy paddle when you are up that infamous creek and the sleek and all powerful V12 engine has given up on you.
    post edited by Jonbouy - 2010/10/22 00:20:28

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    #24
    JazzSinger
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    Re:ASIO4All - whats the point of it? 2010/10/22 04:10:48 (permalink)
    Thanks everyone - also for the additional postings around bitflipper's subtopic.

    Cactus, most versions are available in 32 and 64 bit versions, each having different sizes. Only 2.01 is 64 bit only. Only 1.00 is 32 bit only.

    Release notes only went up to 1.03, as you point out.

    I just re-read some.

    For example, the release notes for 1.02 mentions improving latency on windows. I wanted that.

    They also mention fixing an issue where "some machines develop periodic noise after more than 1 hour", indicative of a memory leak. I didn't want that!

    So I always felt getting the latest is the right thing to do.

    Anyway: I shall re-install the original 1.0 drivers this weekend. Trouble is, I'll only really know they're stable during a session or two, so that'll be Thursday.

    If I have a failure, I shall go back to WDM.

    Here's the link to drivers:
    http://tascam.com/product/us-1641/downloads/

    There are audio drivers AND firmware updates!

    I am waiting for the first user reports of the Roland Octa-Capture. Depending on price drops, ease of use and reliability, I shall start saving for two (they supposedly can be used in pairs, giving 16 XLR-Ins.)
    #25
    JazzSinger
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    Re:ASIO4All - whats the point of it? 2010/10/22 05:08:44 (permalink)
    Roland have a brochure for the OCTA-CAPTURE. Last page has system requirements.

    "To use two OCTA-CAPTUREs, Intel Core 2 Processor/2GHz or higher and built-in 7200 rpm or faster hard drive are required."

    To compare: I do audio-capture recording of all 14 channels at 44k1/24bit with the Tascam US-1641 connected to a humble Samsung NC20 Netbook with an Atom processor!

    Someone is going to ask why. Because it's whisper-quiet.

    OK, I guess I can forget the two Roland O-C idea.
    post edited by JazzSinger - 2010/10/26 10:40:45
    #26
    wormser
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    Re:ASIO4All - whats the point of it? 2010/10/22 12:11:59 (permalink)
    Jonbouy


    wormser


    CJaysMusic


    Yea, its the Hail Marry of sound card drivers. When all else fails, try ASIO4all.
    Cj


    LMAO...
    Good one!

    One thing I don't understand is, if people are paying $300+ for Sonar, Cubase, whatever, they should be at least well seasoned prosumer type users and more than likely professionals at some level.

    So why would these same people want to use a $99.00 Soundblaster or some on board audio chipset instead of a dedicated professional or semi-professional audio card which will include proper low latency drivers?

    It doesn't make sense to me.

    It's like buying a BMW and then putting the cheapest tires Sears makes on it.

    Clue me in because I just don't get it ?


    Well it may be pointless to attempt to clue you in as there are several reasons that have been given why it's useful in certain circumstances already.  Just re-read the thread from outside the smug bubble you and a coupla others seem to be in.

    And incidentally when you buy a BMW, trust me the tyres are included.

    Perhaps you could clue me in as to why it is desirable to spend more money on gear than you actually make with said gear.  I don't know that's true of you but it does seem a strangely fashionable attitude among many so called 'pros'.

    To the OP though, certainly there's no need to use it if your native drivers perform better.
    Like I said, why buy a cheap sound card without the proper drivers when you just spent $300 + on a software program?
    As for my BMW comment, you'll have to replace those "tyres" at some point.

    As for making money with your gear, you just spent $300 + on software so it's assumed you are interested in professional results so why have an audio card that doesn't have professional, dedicated, low latency drivers?
    You can get an M-Audio card with ASIO/WDM drivers for not much more than a SoundBlaster.

    Sorry, but I just don't get it.

    But hey, if ASIO4All works for you, go get em' tiger.





    post edited by wormser - 2010/10/22 12:13:04
    #27
    johnnyV
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    Re:ASIO4All - whats the point of it? 2010/10/22 14:43:53 (permalink)
    Like I said, why buy a cheap sound card without the proper drivers when you just spent $300 + on a software program? -wormser

    There are situations where you would use your on board sound card.
    You can install Sonar on 2 computers.
     So you have a nice Home studio set up with a Rack mounted Firewire/USB interface. It's bulky and a pain to remove.
    You also have a laptop and you are going to be stuck in a hotel room or ( insert boring situation here)  with 6 hours of time to kill.
    Grab a set of headphones and spend some time working on some editing and mixes. You don't need your interface for doing this.

    Of course we also know the other reality of why someone has $400 software but no money for an interface, we won't go there.


    post edited by johnnyV - 2010/10/22 14:44:56

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    #28
    FastBikerBoy
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    Re:ASIO4All - whats the point of it? 2010/10/22 18:37:46 (permalink)
    johnnyV


    Like I said, why buy a cheap sound card without the proper drivers when you just spent $300 + on a software program? -wormser

    There are situations where you would use your on board sound card.
    You can install Sonar on 2 computers.
    So you have a nice Home studio set up with a Rack mounted Firewire/USB interface. It's bulky and a pain to remove.
    You also have a laptop and you are going to be stuck in a hotel room or ( insert boring situation here)  with 6 hours of time to kill.
    Grab a set of headphones and spend some time working on some editing and mixes. You don't need your interface for doing this.

    Of course we also know the other reality of why someone has $400 software but no money for an interface, we won't go there.


    Not to mention the 'expensive' interface you've just bought, only to find out that the drivers are crap..............
    #29
    wormser
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    Re:ASIO4All - whats the point of it? 2010/10/23 00:38:38 (permalink)
    johnnyV


    Like I said, why buy a cheap sound card without the proper drivers when you just spent $300 + on a software program? -wormser

    There are situations where you would use your on board sound card.
    You can install Sonar on 2 computers.
    So you have a nice Home studio set up with a Rack mounted Firewire/USB interface. It's bulky and a pain to remove.
    You also have a laptop and you are going to be stuck in a hotel room or ( insert boring situation here)  with 6 hours of time to kill.
    Grab a set of headphones and spend some time working on some editing and mixes. You don't need your interface for doing this.

    Of course we also know the other reality of why someone has $400 software but no money for an interface, we won't go there.


    I suppose some would do it like that.
    Maybe I'm different, but for me I check out the interface I'm considering, ESPECIALLY the drivers.

    A quick look on the manufacturer's website, or forums like this are all it takes to quickly come up with a short list.

    My point is if you spend $300 on software and then have an interface that has crappy drivers and you decide to use ASIO4ALL and it doesn't give you the performance you need, it's your own fault.

    If it works, then by all means use it.
    I'm referring specifically to the people for which it doesn't give good performance and then who come here and other places and complain about it.





    #30
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