About surround vst fx

we are in 2011 and sonar is still unable to use surround vst effect on a surround bus.
A shame maintained since 2006 according to this guy:
http://forum.cakewalk.com...5589&high=surround

how can you spend time to change the whole interface instead of fixing this ?
do you realize that reaper is able to use 1050 euros FX bundle from wave (Wave 360 surround)
and sonar is not ?

I discover a very bad thing about sonar and VST: if you move a VST effect from its directory and you make
a rescan, sonar will still see him. Why ? because all VST plugs are used not natively via
a @#! wrapper based on DX using GUI ids in the window registry. VErrry bad design.
whatever you cleanup / rescan the wrapper, ghost entries are still here.

uninstall sonar, reinstall, rescann all: ghost entries are still here. so even the uninstaller is unable to cleanup the
entries created by the VST wrapper. shame on you. 400$ for this ?

droopy6


  if you move a VST effect from its directory and you make
a rescan, sonar will still see him. Why ? because all VST plugs are used not natively via
a @#! wrapper based on DX using GUI ids in the window registry. VErrry bad design.
whatever you cleanup / rescan the wrapper, ghost entries are still here.

VST is native in Sonar.  If you are still seeing them after moving folders you have moved the wrong folders.  Probably confusing where they are. They could be in the 64bit, x86 bit or one of Cakewalks folders.  May I suggest that you learn Sonar and Windows before making such false statements?

@vintagevibe

ok, try by yourself. it simple to test it. I'm not a newbiee, I'm a developper and I worked on audio for years.
Don't **** me. Sonar act strangely in this case and it seems to me that the way he use VST is not native.
I can be wrong, sure. But this issue is a big clue. Every DX effect is identified by a single identifier which is
named a GUI (globally unique identifier). A stuff like {3F2504E0-4F89-11D3-9A0C-0305E82C3301}.
If I uninstall sonar and I reinstall and the vst I moved away is still here, we can conclude something remain
after sonar uninstall. And I'm pretty sure it is the windows registry, where are stored all GUI.
This is why I'm thinking sonar use VST with GUI, it is not a native usage. It's a usage via DX wrapper.

droopy6


we are in 2011 and sonar is still unable to use surround vst effect on a surround bus.
A shame maintained since 2006 according to this guy:
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1475589&high=surround

how can you spend time to change the whole interface instead of fixing this ?
do you realize that reaper is able to use 1050 euros FX bundle from wave (Wave 360 surround)
and sonar is not ?

I discover a very bad thing about sonar and VST: if you move a VST effect from its directory and you make
a rescan, sonar will still see him. Why ? because all VST plugs are used not natively via
a @#! wrapper based on DX using GUI ids in the window registry. VErrry bad design.
whatever you cleanup / rescan the wrapper, ghost entries are still here.

uninstall sonar, reinstall, rescann all: ghost entries are still here. so even the uninstaller is unable to cleanup the
entries created by the VST wrapper. shame on you. 400$ for this ?

Correct, the uninstall of X1 was a real pain in the A**, I had to do a system rollback to get rid of the junkfiles and registry entries Sonar left on my system. Totally sucks that they are not even able to deliver a clean deinstalling routine.
 
Well good to know regarding the wrapper info, one more reason to never look back ! Just received the new Cubase 6, and guess what, perfectly stable at 6.0 version!!!
+ Native VST ""3""", everything up and running with surround setup and plugins

droopy6


>and can't resist mentioning other products by other folk.
I was a cakewalk user for years before migrate to cubase. And now I take a look on X1...

> they are forced to use it a certain way
You missed the point. The VST SDK does not force you to use surround pluggins in stereo. ok ...
It's the @#! VST wrapper made by cakewalk. It's like they are forced to use DirectX SDK.
When you know how simple is a VST pluggin, it's terrifying.

.

So I guess that #$"$ wrapper explains why they were not able to implement VST3 like Cubase, Studio One already have.

droopy6


 we are in 2011 and this is should not happen but it is. 

It´s 2011, we still have no flying jet cars and aliens haven´t landed in front of the white house yet.
I am totallly pi**ed and its all Sonar´s fault!!

>I am totallly pi**ed and its all Sonar´s fault!!
:-) not at all. using surround pluggin is a standard stuff. May be you think
it is related to flying jet cars, but it is not the case. It's a simple stuff
that a professional DAW must handle.

>Did you not research this capability beforehand
yes, this is exactly what I'm trying to do theses days. What do you read here:
http://www.cakewalk.com/P....aspx/Comparison-Chart
[Surround Sound]

they should write: surround sound with stereo VST effect only...

>If you move a DX plugin it will still be registered on the system it also cannot be
>unregistered in the normal way using regsvr if the dll isn't there.
What I'm trying to say is that VST are acting also like this ! They are not natively handled
by sonar, sonar use registry and GUI to use them like DX effects. So if you move a VST
the wrapper use a GUI in the registry and show you a ghost entry.
If sonar used natively the VST, a rescan would be suffisant to get rid of it in the menu.
but it is not the case.

>Sonar has it's own sorround sound and you're not willing to use it?
what do you mean ? this does not mean anything. do you mean sonar
provide some surround DX effect. yes, they are working, but that's all ?
I mean, this DAW cannot handle surround VST pluggins at all ? this is
crazy, don't you think so ?

>The problem of an unsupported 3rd party plugin should be obvious to a developer
we aren't talking about a specific pluggin. we are talking about the ability of sonar
to use ANY VST effect with more than 2 channels. It is directly related to the way
sonar is designed (badly), and more precisely by the way the routing busses are
designed. I should not surprised to see surround busses are in fact a group of
stereo busses.

interesting. Do you know if in this case sonar display the both versions of the plugs ?
I mean th DX and the VST ?
My issue comes with WaveShell (a DLL containing 300 VST plugins).
Anyway, this point is just an minor issue. The main issue is the
lack of support for surround VST pluggins.

Yes. SONAR will install and display both the DX and VST versions of the plugin and if there is no distinction in the name of the file they will appear with the same name. You can check what's installed by selecting in the left column of the plugin manager what you wish to see in the centre column ie. DX, DXi, VST, or VSTi etc
However:

SONAR, if left to use the default plugin display will list the DX/DXi plugins first with a separator line before listing the VST/VSTis. This is in the Browser, when left clicking in an fx box or selecting from the
Insert->Soft Synth menu.

In the Plugin manager select DX from the left column and click on a plugin from the centre column, you will see that all DX plugins not only show the path to the file (extension ax) it will also show the CLSID for the registry entry. When you follow the same for procedure for the VSTs you will see the location of the .dll. There is no CLSID. In the registry there is however a VST hive in which all the locations (resulting from the VST Scan) are located.
 
As far as any differences between DX and VST, these days I don't think there is any advantage to using the DX over the VST so I always select VST over DX when installing if I'm given a choice which is the usual case.

Sorry I'm no help to you with the surround issue but I understand what you're saying about surround VST's.

Actually IKMultimedia use the same shell idea with their T-Racks3 Multi fx.
They can be used individually or you can use multiples like in an fx chain by loading the shell first. 32 bit only at this time but works perfectly on my 64 bit SONAR through BitBridge

Unfortunately, the OP decided to put two threads in one. And doubly unfortunately, one is a legitimate concern and the other isn't.

Yes, Sonar can't properly use multichannel VST plugins on the surround bus. It treats all multichannel (more than 2 channel) plugins as stereo with sidechain. It's a broken surround implementation.  There is no point in calling support about it other than to maybe have them add one more tally mark under "people who want proper VST surround support".  And there's always filling out the feature request page.

The other issue regarding VST support in general is just a red herring. let it go. Save all your anger for the broken surround VST support.

three_eyed_otter


Does anybody remember the Baker's purchasing the wrapper?  They basically had a choice between the 2 market contenders (Fxpansion & Directxer).  I believe they purchased Fxpansion's & then bundled the wrapper w/Sonar 3.  Then the outcry came for the wrapper not to be an add-on & poof it disappeared into the Sonar code--like so many other extensions/add-ons to the Sonar code.

have a good one
3Eo

I had to buy DirectiXer because the built-in FXpansion wrapper didn't know how to deal with Toontrack's Superior 1, which had a combination of stereo and mono outputs.  Cake's adapter would put kick and snare on one stereo channel, with the kick hard panned left and the snare hard panned right.  DirectiXer on the other hand worked perfectly with Superior 1.  It's quite like the Bitbridge vs Jbridge thing IMO.

Droopy6

I'm figuring that English isn't your first language, if that is the case I've got to tell you, you handled this discussion very well.

If I'm wrong then forgive me but I just wanted to offer encouragement otherwise.

droopy6


thanks. I'm a froggy ;-)

Ah, not far from me then, in fact I'm nearer to some French towns than I am to London!