LpMike75
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Acoustic Treatment (for the poor man)
I am looking for some cheap acoustic treatment, that can also be made to look nice, so stealing all of my couch cushions and hanging them on my studio walls will not be good for looks...or for getting on my wifes good side.
I was watching some YouTube videos on building some home bass traps. I noticed the popularity of the Owens Corning 703 insulation and am wondering if any insulation would do (AKA the pink stuff). With a baby on the way, my music budget just shrunk so I am looking for cheap but orderly solutions for acoustic treatments. Anyone have any good tips?
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re:Acoustic Treatment (for the poor man)
2011/01/05 06:00:54
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Anything goes as long as it's heavy enough. The material should weigh at least 30 kg/cubic metre (about 65 pounds/36 cubic feet????)
Rugs and carpets easily weight over 100 kg/cmetre. You can get them sometimes quite cheap at garage sales or fleamarkets.
Some superlon-types weight over 100 kg/cubic metre, but they are very expensive, stone wool is cheaper.
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bitflipper
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Re:Acoustic Treatment (for the poor man)
2011/01/05 09:02:46
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The pink stuff works great for bass trapping. The problem is the physical space it takes up. If you have enough room, you can simply stack rolls of pink fluffy in the corners of the room. You don't even have to take them out of the plastic.
703 or 705 "rigid" fiberglass is basically the same stuff, but squashed into 1, 2, 3 or 4-inch thicknesses. You get the same effect, but in a more compact form. (Note that "rock wool" or "stone wool" is synonymous to "rigid fiberglass".) 705 is heavier and denser, and therefore more absorbent than 703 so it takes less of it for bass trapping but it's also more expensive.
Both are available with and without paper backing. If you get it with paper backing, remove the backing from one side and face the paper side into the room. This supposedly reduces absorption at high frequencies so the room doesn't sound overly dead. At least, that's my understanding; I've never used the paper-backed stuff.
The stuff doesn't look bad naked, but most people stretch and staple fabric over it for cosmetics. Burlap works well as a covering because its open weave makes it acoustically transparent, and it's cheap. If you go to a well-stocked fabric store you can find it (or special-order it) in a variety of colors. Speaker cloth works, too, but that's a lot more expensive. Really, any cloth that you can blow air through and feel it on the other side will do.
You'll need at least 4 inches for bass trapping, the thicker the better. Start with the tri-corners where two walls and ceiling meet, that's where you get the biggest bang:buck ratio. Next most important are the regular corners of the room.
For the first-reflection points on the ceiling and side walls, positioned halfway between your speakers and listening position, 2 inches of 703 will do the job. They are most effective when spaced 2" out from the wall or ceiling.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Beagle
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Re:Acoustic Treatment (for the poor man)
2011/01/05 09:17:46
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I just want to clarify something that bit says above and I'm not sure exactly what he meant by it, but I might be disagreeing with him here.
You should not have uncovered fiberglass in your room from a safety perspective. glass dust will come off of the fiberglass and you won't even notice or see it, but it is harmful to your lungs because you'll breathe it in without knowing it.
other than covering the 703 or 705 with burlap, I also recommend spraying it with either a spray glue like you use for gluing auralex or similar panels to the wall, or spray it with a flame-****ant. either of these will help hold the dust and help prevent it from flying around the room. after spraying it with either of these, then you should cover it with an acoustically transparent material like burlap.
the glue will also help hold the burlap/material to the 703 and make it look nice and keep it from bunching up or falling off.
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LpMike75
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Re:Acoustic Treatment (for the poor man)
2011/01/05 10:06:15
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Thanks for the ideas guys
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Randy P
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Re:Acoustic Treatment (for the poor man)
2011/01/05 10:49:30
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 Mike, Here is what I did when I built the bass traps for my room. I started with 16 panels of 703 that were 2'x4'x2". I picked up some furring strips at Home Depot. They are real cheap and come in 8' lengths and are 1"x2". I got some of those little "L" brackets and built a frame 4' wide and 8' tall. I got some inexpensive muslin cloth and stretched it over the frame and stapled it in place. Then I flipped it over and laid the 703 panels into the frame, and then laid another layer of 703 over that making them 4" thick. Next, I covered the panels with burlap and stapled it tightly over the exposed 703. Done! In the picture you can see them standing in the corners. I've since hung them from the ceiling and they work great.
post edited by rsp@odyssey.net - 2011/01/05 10:51:03
http://www.soundclick.com/riprorenband
The music biz is a cruel and shallow money trench,a plastic hallway where thieves & pimps run free and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. Hunter S. Thompson
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bitflipper
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Re:Acoustic Treatment (for the poor man)
2011/01/05 11:19:21
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I also recommend spraying it with either a spray glue like you use for gluing auralex or similar panels to the wall, or spray it with a flame-****ant. I would think that a spray-on coating might diminish the material's absorption characteristics. After all, it's the ability of individual fibers to freely vibrate that accounts for its ability to absorb energy in the first place. I don't really know one way or the other, I'm just wondering out loud. As for fibers coming loose, I have seen no evidence of that even though I have several uncovered panels here. Granted, the fibers are small, but so is normal dust in the air and it accumulates under my desk in large clearly visible clumps, whereas I have never seen any evidence of any (bright yellow) particles from the 703. Now, if the panel sits where it's likely to be brushed by passersby, then yeh, the stuff is easily damaged and should be protected with a covering.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Beagle
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Re:Acoustic Treatment (for the poor man)
2011/01/05 11:26:30
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bitflipper
I also recommend spraying it with either a spray glue like you use for gluing auralex or similar panels to the wall, or spray it with a flame-****ant.
I would think that a spray-on coating might diminish the material's absorption characteristics. After all, it's the ability of individual fibers to freely vibrate that accounts for its ability to absorb energy in the first place. I don't really know one way or the other, I'm just wondering out loud.
As for fibers coming loose, I have seen no evidence of that even though I have several uncovered panels here. Granted, the fibers are small, but so is normal dust in the air and it accumulates under my desk in large clearly visible clumps, whereas I have never seen any evidence of any (bright yellow) particles from the 703. Now, if the panel sits where it's likely to be brushed by passersby, then yeh, the stuff is easily damaged and should be protected with a covering.
true, the spray on coating might diminish the absorption some, but I would think it wouldn't be by much. I certainly wouldn't advocate using a lot of it, just a small coating to help keep the fibers from becoming airborne. even if you don't want to use a spray coating - which I understand your logic, I still would not advocate leaving them uncovered completely and would at least suggest that they be covered with burlap or muslin or something acoustically fairly transparent in order to help keep some of the fibers from becoming airborne. I'm not sure you would notice yellow particles - the glass fibers that come off of the 703 would be pretty small and would not really tend to clump back together. then again - I could be full of crap. I'll gladly relent if someone knows better than what I have said.
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skullsession
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Re:Acoustic Treatment (for the poor man)
2011/01/05 11:46:52
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Having a little bit of spray ahesive on one side of the panel isn't going to interfere with "particle vibration" any more than leaving one side of the craft paper on the stuff or leaving it in the plastic wrap. I used 703 and burlap myself, but chose to not use any sort of adhesive spray. No slippage or bunching probelms after they've hung for a couple of years. But I do know folks that have used adhesive spray to be "safe".  Here are some shots...one of my live room and one of the control room. I used 3 different colors of bulap in the control room. Note the very dark brown used in the vertical corners.  (edit - spelling)
post edited by skullsession - 2011/01/05 11:48:55
HOOK: Skullsessions.com / Darwins God Album "Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure....I have done more listening than most people." - Jeff Evans on how awesome Jeff Evans is.
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re:Acoustic Treatment (for the poor man)
2011/01/05 11:51:59
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I'm no doctor, but I'd make sure the glass wool doesnt crumble in the air of the room.
The healt hazard with glass wool is the material. Once it's in your lungs, it'll never decompose. It's not as bad as asbestos, but definately bad. You should absolutely avoid inhaling it.
What kind of amounts form a real health hazard, I don't know, but when I think about the feeling in my pipes and eyes after a minor insulation job in the attick, I know I don't want to inhale that stuff year after year, little by little.
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LpMike75
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Re:Acoustic Treatment (for the poor man)
2011/01/05 12:02:13
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Randy and James,
Nice set ups, how are you guys hanging those bass traps in the corners? Are you using hooks?
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Randy P
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Re:Acoustic Treatment (for the poor man)
2011/01/05 12:46:58
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Yes, I attached a couple of small screws to the top of the frame, and used fishing line to hang it from a couple of small hooks I put in the ceiling. The assembled frames are very light, especially since I built them with the furring strips. Very easy to hang.
Randy
http://www.soundclick.com/riprorenband
The music biz is a cruel and shallow money trench,a plastic hallway where thieves & pimps run free and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. Hunter S. Thompson
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LpMike75
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Re:Acoustic Treatment (for the poor man)
2011/01/05 14:45:10
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Would there be any downside to using a box with backing for bass traps? For instance, my very talented mother made me boxes to hang on the wall and put my guitars in years ago. The boxes are almost the exact size of the 703 panels. Just wondering if I could put them to good use and stuff them with insulation for the bass traps. They do have a back on them with an open front (obviously).
This would also get me out of the jam when my mother comes to visit and asks "where are those guitar boxes I made for you?"
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skullsession
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Re:Acoustic Treatment (for the poor man)
2011/01/05 14:46:01
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Hey Mike.... The best way I can describe it is sort like two hinges on one side of a cabinet door and a latch on the other side. I used two 3" pieces of angle iron on the bottom, and one on the top. Screwed one piece of angle iron to the ceiling, and two on the walls. I set the bottom side of the frame onto the ones on the wall and swung up the panel (squeezing gently) and snapped it into the one on the ceiling. Oddly enough, I also used what amounts to furring strips for my frames. Approx 1"x1.5" pieces of pine with the 703 laid on top, wrapped with burlap and stapled to the back side. Here's a pic I just drew up in Photoshop to try and explain. Hopefully between the pic and the description you'll see how I did it. Very cheap. Very sturdy. Very quick. Very easy to tear back down and move if needed. Hope it helps. 
HOOK: Skullsessions.com / Darwins God Album "Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure....I have done more listening than most people." - Jeff Evans on how awesome Jeff Evans is.
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skullsession
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Re:Acoustic Treatment (for the poor man)
2011/01/05 14:52:59
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LpMike75
Would there be any downside to using a box with backing for bass traps? For instance, my very talented mother made me boxes to hang on the wall and put my guitars in years ago. The boxes are almost the exact size of the 703 panels. Just wondering if I could put them to good use and stuff them with insulation for the bass traps. They do have a back on them with an open front (obviously).
This would also get me out of the jam when my mother comes to visit and asks "where are those guitar boxes I made for you?"
Mike....ideally, they'd be open backed and a 4 inch panel would be 4 inches from the wall. A 2 inch panel would be 2 inches from the wall. But...it's not a perfect world....and neither is my setup. Those boxes would probably be fine if placed properly.
HOOK: Skullsessions.com / Darwins God Album "Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure....I have done more listening than most people." - Jeff Evans on how awesome Jeff Evans is.
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Randy P
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Re:Acoustic Treatment (for the poor man)
2011/01/05 15:00:49
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James (skull), I see you have mentioned that you too used the furring strips in constructing your bass traps. I also noticed you used the term "oddly" when referring to your use of them.
Therefore, my attorneys will be in touch regarding your theft of my design, and your sideways slanderous language where you called me "odd".
Good day sir!
Randy
http://www.soundclick.com/riprorenband
The music biz is a cruel and shallow money trench,a plastic hallway where thieves & pimps run free and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. Hunter S. Thompson
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Beagle
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Re:Acoustic Treatment (for the poor man)
2011/01/05 15:05:30
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and placement is key regardless of the medium you use! you may have to move them around the room to find the best placement.
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LpMike75
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Re:Acoustic Treatment (for the poor man)
2011/01/05 15:22:38
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Thanks again for the info, and James thanks for taking the time with the diagram. It took my 3 hours yesterday just to construct what is essentially a wooden box (used as a platform for my ginormous computer to keep it off the ground). With that in mind, I can definately use tutorials and diagrams :)
These ideas should keep me busy for a while
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LpMike75
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Re:Acoustic Treatment (for the poor man)
2011/01/05 15:26:17
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Beagle-
While watching those YouTube videos (the preferred educational tool of choice by the lazy man) I saw several people use the "mirror trick" for placement of their traps.
You sit in the mixing chair while your friend moves a mirror along the walls, the theory from what I gathered was, anyplace you see the speakers in the mirror, is a good place to put a trap. I might try that technique unless you have some other suggestions to try.
Thanks
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Beagle
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Re:Acoustic Treatment (for the poor man)
2011/01/05 15:52:11
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mike - i can't watch youtube vids from work anymore.  but you should start in your corners of your room, that's where the bass frequencies turn into standing waves. and not necessarily just the vertical corners - the horizontal ones too and it helps to have clouds over your listening area. but I don't have all that done yet myself either. starting points would be the vertical corners of the room.
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skullsession
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Re:Acoustic Treatment (for the poor man)
2011/01/05 16:01:41
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rsp@odyssey.net
James (skull), I see you have mentioned that you too used the furring strips in constructing your bass traps. I also noticed you used the term "oddly" when referring to your use of them.
Therefore, my attorneys will be in touch regarding your theft of my design, and your sideways slanderous language where you called me "odd".
Good day sir!
Randy
My ex used to tell me to "be nice". I always said that I didn't have to be as long as it were true.
HOOK: Skullsessions.com / Darwins God Album "Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure....I have done more listening than most people." - Jeff Evans on how awesome Jeff Evans is.
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skullsession
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Re:Acoustic Treatment (for the poor man)
2011/01/05 16:03:23
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Beagle
starting points would be the vertical corners of the room.
Agreed. You honestly won't believe how much just doing that alone will seemingly tighten up your room. The question is, are you going to do any spectral measurements before and after the project to see what you've fixed/ruined? :)
HOOK: Skullsessions.com / Darwins God Album "Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure....I have done more listening than most people." - Jeff Evans on how awesome Jeff Evans is.
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Randy P
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Re:Acoustic Treatment (for the poor man)
2011/01/05 16:33:31
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skullsession
Beagle
starting points would be the vertical corners of the room.
Agreed. You honestly won't believe how much just doing that alone will seemingly tighten up your room.
The question is, are you going to do any spectral measurements before and after the project to see what you've fixed/ruined? :)
I was stunned to hear the difference when I put up my bass traps. I knew I had made the right decision, especially when my dog barked. See, before the traps, when he barked, there would be this high freq. ringing afterwards. After the traps, nada! Randy
http://www.soundclick.com/riprorenband
The music biz is a cruel and shallow money trench,a plastic hallway where thieves & pimps run free and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. Hunter S. Thompson
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Beagle
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Re:Acoustic Treatment (for the poor man)
2011/01/05 16:34:54
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skullsession
Beagle
starting points would be the vertical corners of the room.
Agreed. You honestly won't believe how much just doing that alone will seemingly tighten up your room.
The question is, are you going to do any spectral measurements before and after the project to see what you've fixed/ruined? :)
Me? yes, I did, but I have just this past weekend taken my traps out of the room to work on them. I had initially put only 2" of 703 in each of them and I'm modifying them now for 4" each. I plan to do another measurement check before I put them modified ones back in and of course after. I use a behringer mc8000 for measurements.
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skullsession
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Re:Acoustic Treatment (for the poor man)
2011/01/05 17:16:31
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No...not YOU specifically....I meant YOU in general.
HOOK: Skullsessions.com / Darwins God Album "Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure....I have done more listening than most people." - Jeff Evans on how awesome Jeff Evans is.
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Beagle
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Re:Acoustic Treatment (for the poor man)
2011/01/05 17:19:51
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Me in general? 
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LpMike75
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Re:Acoustic Treatment (for the poor man)
2011/01/05 19:46:52
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I am going to borrow Randy's dog for the before and after tests
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Randy P
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Re:Acoustic Treatment (for the poor man)
2011/01/05 20:49:00
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LpMike75
I am going to borrow Randy's dog for the before and after tests
Be careful what you wish for Mike. I posted a thread in the CH awhile back about my dog. I wouldn't wish this beast on anyone! Randy
http://www.soundclick.com/riprorenband
The music biz is a cruel and shallow money trench,a plastic hallway where thieves & pimps run free and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. Hunter S. Thompson
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Acoustic Treatment (for the poor man)
2011/01/06 05:15:46
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bitflipper
I also recommend spraying it with either a spray glue like you use for gluing auralex or similar panels to the wall, or spray it with a flame-****ant.
I would think that a spray-on coating might diminish the material's absorption characteristics. After all, it's the ability of individual fibers to freely vibrate that accounts for its ability to absorb energy in the first place. I don't really know one way or the other, I'm just wondering out loud.
As for fibers coming loose, I have seen no evidence of that even though I have several uncovered panels here. Granted, the fibers are small, but so is normal dust in the air and it accumulates under my desk in large clearly visible clumps, whereas I have never seen any evidence of any (bright yellow) particles from the 703. Now, if the panel sits where it's likely to be brushed by passersby, then yeh, the stuff is easily damaged and should be protected with a covering.
I sprayed my traps with a can of hairspray. It doesn't seem to affect the absorbtion and prevents the little buggers from escaping into the room.
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Beagle
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Re:Acoustic Treatment (for the poor man)
2011/01/06 08:23:54
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Bristol_Jonesey
bitflipper
I also recommend spraying it with either a spray glue like you use for gluing auralex or similar panels to the wall, or spray it with a flame-****ant.
I would think that a spray-on coating might diminish the material's absorption characteristics. After all, it's the ability of individual fibers to freely vibrate that accounts for its ability to absorb energy in the first place. I don't really know one way or the other, I'm just wondering out loud.
As for fibers coming loose, I have seen no evidence of that even though I have several uncovered panels here. Granted, the fibers are small, but so is normal dust in the air and it accumulates under my desk in large clearly visible clumps, whereas I have never seen any evidence of any (bright yellow) particles from the 703. Now, if the panel sits where it's likely to be brushed by passersby, then yeh, the stuff is easily damaged and should be protected with a covering.
I sprayed my traps with a can of hairspray. It doesn't seem to affect the absorbtion and prevents the little buggers from escaping into the room.
Colin - isn't hairspray flammable? that's why I didn't use hairspray, but used spray on adhesive. the spray on adhesive may be flammable while wet but most of them dry to a state that isn't flammable (I guess it's probably the propellent/lubricant that is actually flammable). hairspray is more flammable when wet, but still is flammable when dry.
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