joden
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Anderton
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Re: Alternative to the new "headphone mix" plugin?
2015/11/20 14:01:16
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Try 'em both, they're free.
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joden
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Re: Alternative to the new "headphone mix" plugin?
2015/11/20 14:27:08
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Yeah...exactly! I wasn't trying to say it's better Craig  just one I came across. It has no adjustment so is probs not all that useful, but I thought it worth a mention
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Anderton
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Re: Alternative to the new "headphone mix" plugin?
2015/11/20 15:14:36
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☄ Helpfulby joel77 2015/11/20 21:02:26
The concept of how to implement this functionality is really pretty cut-and-dry. Where different products differ is the degree to which they take the emulation process...probably the most sophisticated is Focusrite's VRM box, but of course it's hardware and not free. Mine has four controls for basics and an A/B switch.
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joden
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Re: Alternative to the new "headphone mix" plugin?
2015/11/20 16:05:37
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Nice unit Craig...might investigate one myself, if I can find one out here not too exxy! And being basically lazy I do find it a drag to constantly insert the plugin and then try to remember to defeat it when rendering audio haha! So a hardware one can be setup permanently. re software versions - thx I did not realise they were all just the same albeit with differing preset levels of effect.
post edited by joden - 2015/11/20 16:16:58
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joden
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Re: Alternative to the new "headphone mix" plugin?
2015/11/20 16:09:47
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as a supplementary question - do you think it would it work okay for an emulation of the Alesis M1 MkII? (I note no factory emulation preset is available) thanks
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Paul G
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Re: Alternative to the new "headphone mix" plugin?
2015/11/20 17:51:54
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I'm looking forward to trying out Craig's new headphone plug. I've been using the HDPHX for years and really liked it but it quit working a while back. I don't remember what the problem was though... Paul
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Soundwise
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Re: Alternative to the new "headphone mix" plugin?
2015/11/20 18:34:29
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There are also Beyerdynamic Virtual Studio (free), ToneBoosters Isone (demo available). Looking forward to try Mr. Anderton's plugin.
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Anderton
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Re: Alternative to the new "headphone mix" plugin?
2015/11/20 22:04:20
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joden as a supplementary question - do you think it would it work okay for an emulation of the Alesis M1 MkII? (I note no factory emulation preset is available) The Monitorizer is not about emulating different speakers (like VRM does), or different acoustical environments (like Beyerdynamic's virtual studio). From the eZine, here's what it does: While not as sophisticated as some products that try to emulate a complete room environment down to the last detail, the Monitorizer is based on the same principles: - Feed a little left channel into the right channel, and feed a little right channel into the left channel.
- Delay the additional feeds by 1-2 ms to emulate that the right speaker signal hitting your left ear is delayed slightly compared to when it hits your right ear, and the left speaker signal hitting your right ear is delayed slightly compared to when it hits your left ear.
- Add in some very subtle reflections to be more like a "room."
- Reduce the highs of the additional feeds just a tiny bit because your head is in the way and attenuates the highs.
That's all there is to it. The reason I came up with the Monitorizer is I wanted something where the tone would be the same as the headphones, but with imaging that's more like speakers. I very rarely (if ever, come to think of it) create something to replicate what already exists...if a solution already exists, I'll go for it and save myself the hassle. One benefit of the Monitorizer is that you can access the parameters and modules so you can tinker with it, which you can't do with other solutions.
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mettelus
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Re: Alternative to the new "headphone mix" plugin?
2015/11/20 23:17:00
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Anderton The concept of how to implement this functionality is really pretty cut-and-dry. Where different products differ is the degree to which they take the emulation process...probably the most sophisticated is Focusrite's VRM box, but of course it's hardware and not free. Mine has four controls for basics and an A/B switch.
Hmmm, I might have to revisit this since the Saffire PRO 24 DSP (discontinued) has that VRM built into the interface. I was probably not using it properly anyway, but totally forgot I had it until you mentioned it again. The endorsement is definitely worth another look.
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GIM Productions
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Re: Alternative to the new "headphone mix" plugin?
2015/11/21 04:07:14
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Hi all the Tonebooster Isone Pro is an awesome ambient simulation plug in. Best
post edited by GIM Productions - 2015/11/21 04:52:47
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pwalpwal
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Re: Alternative to the new "headphone mix" plugin?
2015/11/21 10:36:53
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GIM Productions Hi all the Tonebooster Isone Pro is an awesome ambient simulation plug in. Best
+1
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joden
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Re: Alternative to the new "headphone mix" plugin?
2015/11/21 12:33:32
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Anderton
joden as a supplementary question - do you think it would it work okay for an emulation of the Alesis M1 MkII? (I note no factory emulation preset is available) The Monitorizer is not about emulating different speakers (like VRM does), or different acoustical environments (like Beyerdynamic's virtual studio). From the eZine, here's what it does: While not as sophisticated as some products that try to emulate a complete room environment down to the last detail, the Monitorizer is based on the same principles:
- Feed a little left channel into the right channel, and feed a little right channel into the left channel.
- Delay the additional feeds by 1-2 ms to emulate that the right speaker signal hitting your left ear is delayed slightly compared to when it hits your right ear, and the left speaker signal hitting your right ear is delayed slightly compared to when it hits your left ear.
- Add in some very subtle reflections to be more like a "room."
- Reduce the highs of the additional feeds just a tiny bit because your head is in the way and attenuates the highs.
That's all there is to it. The reason I came up with the Monitorizer is I wanted something where the tone would be the same as the headphones, but with imaging that's more like speakers. I very rarely (if ever, come to think of it) create something to replicate what already exists...if a solution already exists, I'll go for it and save myself the hassle. One benefit of the Monitorizer is that you can access the parameters and modules so you can tinker with it, which you can't do with other solutions.
Craig I was asking about the Focusrite VRM module, not the monitoriser
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Lynn
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Re: Alternative to the new "headphone mix" plugin?
2015/11/21 15:06:20
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Joden, the original Alesis Monitor One was used in the VRM models, as was Auratones. I own both speakers and the VRM does a credible emulation of both. I also own a pair of KRK rokit's and the VRM captures them quite well, too.
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fireberd
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Re: Alternative to the new "headphone mix" plugin?
2015/11/21 15:14:37
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I have a VRM box. It currently "collects dust". I seemed to be a gimmick more than a useful tool, for me.
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joden
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Re: Alternative to the new "headphone mix" plugin?
2015/11/21 16:37:05
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Lynn Joden, the original Alesis Monitor One was used in the VRM models, as was Auratones. I own both speakers and the VRM does a credible emulation of both. I also own a pair of KRK rokit's and the VRM captures them quite well, too.
Cheers, thanks Lynn Dennis
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Lynn
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Re: Alternative to the new "headphone mix" plugin?
2015/11/22 14:26:54
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fireberd I have a VRM box. It currently "collects dust". I seemed to be a gimmick more than a useful tool, for me.
I used to wonder whether I made a good investment with the VRM. Every mix I made, I played through the "media speakers " in the bedroom environment and nothing sounded good. I began to doubt that anything could sound good through them, until I played Steely Dan. Yes, they sounded good with SD and a light bulb went off in my head. Now I'm not done with a mix until it sounds OK through all the bedroom speaker emulations, and, lo and behold, that made my mixes translate better across more systems. Plus, I use the ARC 2 system on my speakers which rounds out my mixing environment. The VRM would be useful on an airplane with a laptop and headphones if you travel much.
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Beepster
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Re: Alternative to the new "headphone mix" plugin?
2015/11/22 14:37:51
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Since I got my VRM Box it has helped me isolate a lot of "sh*t" in my mixes. That said... I work almost exclusively through headphones, I do not have a proper listening environment and I'm a essentially a n00b hack when it comes to mixing.* If those things do not apply to you (as in you have a good room with good speakers and know WTF you are doing) then yes... the VRM Box probably isn't that useful aside from just some extra listening options IF you are feeling curious. To a clowno fartwad like me? Invaluable and I'm looking forward to trying out this extra monitoring option. It all helps. *I also don't have a car, access to all the bar PA systems I used to, can't crank up my stereo systems in my apartment, just don't have the usual mix testing options outside of my dark, silent little mixing cubby. Edit: What I DO have is a huge bag of headphones/earbuds of varying quality that I can swap in and out so that helps a bit too.
post edited by Beepster - 2015/11/22 14:51:31
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JonD
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Re: Alternative to the new "headphone mix" plugin?
2015/11/22 17:18:15
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Beepster Since I got my VRM Box it has helped me isolate a lot of "sh*t" in my mixes.
Same here. In fact, I just bought the Sonarworks headphone Ref plugin, which, theoretically, should flatten my headphone response and give better results through the VRM. (This assumes Focusrite used flat-ish headphones in their models. If they used, say, Dr Dre Beats, I've just flushed $60 down the commode).
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Jesse Screed
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Re: Alternative to the new "headphone mix" plugin?
2015/11/22 17:24:15
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YO BEEPSTER!!!! Stop dissing yourself. Nobody cares if you can mix or not. What we care about is all the effort you put into learning about the craft, and then sharing what you have learned. Your fingerprints are all over this forum. So Dude, give yourself a little love. If you don't believe in yourself nobody else will. Besides, I'm sure you're pretty good, and probably getting better everyday. Just saying. Peace Jesse
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Beepster
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Re: Alternative to the new "headphone mix" plugin?
2015/11/22 18:24:04
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Heh heh... thanks, Jesse. The self effacing thing is specifically due to my high post count and constant yammering. I just don't want any travellers thinking I'm some kind of authority on audio stuff. I know quite a bit now and I do alright but there are some REAL powerhouses around here so yanno... don't want to give the impression I'm one of the big dogs... yet. Kind of a "full disclosure" type deal. Just another traveller sharing what I've figured out with other travellers. Cheers. JonD
Beepster Since I got my VRM Box it has helped me isolate a lot of "sh*t" in my mixes.
Same here. In fact, I just bought the Sonarworks headphone Ref plugin, which, theoretically, should flatten my headphone response and give better results through the VRM. (This assumes Focusrite used flat-ish headphones in their models. If they used, say, Dr Dre Beats, I've just flushed $60 down the commode).
I'm quite interested in the Sonarworks plugin (or preferably their physical headphone tweaking service where you ship them your cans and they sprinkle magic dust on them to flatten them out or just buy a set of their pretweaked cans). My impression though is their stuff is supposed make it so you can just get a more "pure" signal from your cans using their presets/hardware tweaks so you don't need things like VRM or ARC. I'd still use the VRM though "just 'cause" (might as well crank it through the sources to see if it exposes anything) and of course ARC + real monitors would be even better. A properly treated room with proper monitoring equipment is obviously the best situation... but this stuff, as with all audio crud, gets more expensive the more "ideal" it is. For now the VRM seems to help once I'm in the last stages of mixing. Particularly with my "boomy low end" issues.
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joden
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Re: Alternative to the new "headphone mix" plugin?
2015/11/22 19:06:29
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Beepster Since I got my VRM Box it has helped me isolate a lot of "sh*t" in my mixes. That said... I work almost exclusively through headphones, I do not have a proper listening environment and I'm a essentially a n00b hack when it comes to mixing.* If those things do not apply to you (as in you have a good room with good speakers and know WTF you are doing) then yes... the VRM Box probably isn't that useful aside from just some extra listening options IF you are feeling curious. To a clowno fartwad like me? Invaluable and I'm looking forward to trying out this extra monitoring option. It all helps. *I also don't have a car, access to all the bar PA systems I used to, can't crank up my stereo systems in my apartment, just don't have the usual mix testing options outside of my dark, silent little mixing cubby. Edit: What I DO have is a huge bag of headphones/earbuds of varying quality that I can swap in and out so that helps a bit too.
Yep all of the above for me  although I do sometimes use monitors, the room I am in is not all that great. I am no on the hunt for this little box!
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mettelus
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Re: Alternative to the new "headphone mix" plugin?
2015/11/22 20:20:47
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[semi-hijack, but you guys started it] I checked out the VRM in my Saffire and immediately remembered WHY it didn't appeal to me... just swapping presets internally changes the color of the track drastically in some cases. This actually bothers me a great deal, so maybe I am missing the "point." I get (and want) the reduction of the WIDE stereo separation, but the colorization part makes zero sense to me... What am I not getting here?
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Beepster
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Re: Alternative to the new "headphone mix" plugin?
2015/11/22 20:38:50
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mettelus [semi-hijack, but you guys started it] I checked out the VRM in my Saffire and immediately remembered WHY it didn't appeal to me... just swapping presets internally changes the color of the track drastically in some cases. This actually bothers me a great deal, so maybe I am missing the "point." I get (and want) the reduction of the WIDE stereo separation, but the colorization part makes zero sense to me... What am I not getting here?
It's to mimic various rooms and speaker/soundsystem setups. Like the cheapo micro system sound is gonna sound way different than the studio monitor emus or the 80's hifi system, etc. Does the internal VRM not have the onscreen GUI? Perhaps I'm missing your point though. To me the emus are pretty close to what I'd expect their real world counterparts to sound like. Not perfect but good enough to hear possible problem areas.
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kitekrazy1
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Re: Alternative to the new "headphone mix" plugin?
2015/11/22 21:19:43
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Beepster Since I got my VRM Box it has helped me isolate a lot of "sh*t" in my mixes. That said... I work almost exclusively through headphones, I do not have a proper listening environment and I'm a essentially a n00b hack when it comes to mixing.* If those things do not apply to you (as in you have a good room with good speakers and know WTF you are doing) then yes... the VRM Box probably isn't that useful aside from just some extra listening options IF you are feeling curious. To a clowno fartwad like me? Invaluable and I'm looking forward to trying out this extra monitoring option. It all helps. *I also don't have a car, access to all the bar PA systems I used to, can't crank up my stereo systems in my apartment, just don't have the usual mix testing options outside of my dark, silent little mixing cubby. Edit: What I DO have is a huge bag of headphones/earbuds of varying quality that I can swap in and out so that helps a bit too.
That's the whole point of VRM Box. It's for people who have limitations. Space is limited for me. I can't have real monitors but I still have some old Edirol digital monitors and the small Alesis ones you can get for under $100 at Guitar Center.
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mettelus
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Re: Alternative to the new "headphone mix" plugin?
2015/11/23 09:47:00
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My bad, I should have clarified this better. What "bothers" me with VRM is say I choose "Professional Studio" and then begin cycling through just the monitor options (not listening position). Granted, I am not familiar with all the monitor choices, but what stands out is the tonal variation to monitor choice. A/B is a must without familiarity, and I would be more likely to "mix out" these differences. The 2 "broadcast" monitoring options makes sense, but switching between the 8 monitor choices doesn't - I honestly expected these not to vary so much. The default is "US Yellow Cone Pro," so I guess it is better to learn one and stick with it.
ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
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joden
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Re: Alternative to the new "headphone mix" plugin?
2015/11/23 11:36:05
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I have bought one now (it's CA's fault for mentioning it  ) and I want to use it to attempt to get a mix that sounds good across all the monitor emulations and any other emulations it does. Then I think I can feel pretty comfortable that the mix is going to play nicely everywhere
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Beepster
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Re: Alternative to the new "headphone mix" plugin?
2015/11/23 11:48:25
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☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2015/11/23 12:08:06
mettelus My bad, I should have clarified this better. What "bothers" me with VRM is say I choose "Professional Studio" and then begin cycling through just the monitor options (not listening position). Granted, I am not familiar with all the monitor choices, but what stands out is the tonal variation to monitor choice. A/B is a must without familiarity, and I would be more likely to "mix out" these differences. The 2 "broadcast" monitoring options makes sense, but switching between the 8 monitor choices doesn't - I honestly expected these not to vary so much. The default is "US Yellow Cone Pro," so I guess it is better to learn one and stick with it.
Not necessarily and part of the idea is to actually "mix out" the differences as best as possible. It's all about trying to get the the mix as consistent as possible on all the various emulations. They're not gonna sound exactly the same no matter what you do but just like regular mixing/mastering you want the material to sound as consistent as possible on all systems. So you actually WANT those variations. Like even in a proper studio with real monitors your main monitors (Rockits for example) aren't going to sound like an Auratone... right? But you switch back and forth until the mix sounds good on both. Before I get too crazy on details it's actually not all that great to flip through the emus all willy nilly as the track plays. That indeed just messes up your ears and isn't all that useful (it's how I rolled at first and I learned to ease up on that behavior). A bit of flipping around amongst the more similar systems within the same environment isn't too bad but going from the studio speakers in the studio environment straight to the laptop or TV speakers in the bedroom environment just ain't gonna help with anything (and serious burn out your ears). How I do it is I'll get my mix started using just the regular headphone output on my main interface. Once everything is sounding good and even I'll switch over to the VRM and start checking it through some of the more "normal" sounding emus (like the Rockit emus and other "pro monitors" in the Studio setting). Those sound close to each other natural and will generally expose the first layer of crap. I'll do some tweaks until the mix is sounding pretty consistent on that first series of speakers. I'll disable the VRM and check the "pure" mix and usually it will always sound a little better right away. Then I'll start digging into the "consumer grade hi fi" speakers in the studio and living room settings. This exposes another layer of crap. I'll do some more tweaks, check it through the PREVIOUS series of speaker setups I tried and my "pure" headphone output. I'll usually start checking it in my monitors at this point too (I can safely get away with a couple of plays of a track per day at low volume in my apartment... I just don't want to play the same tune over and over and over again lest the neighbors think I'm crazy or figure out I'm a musician). So generally by this stage my mix is sounding much more consistent on all the emus, through my headphones (without the VRM) and through my monitors. Then I'll start checking it out on the utter crap emus like the desktop PC speakers, the flatscreen TV speakers and the WORST one of all the Budget Micro System emu which is just freaking unbearable to listen to (pretty much like their real world counterparts). None of these are ever going to sound conistent with the nicer emus but they give me an idea of how the mix will stand up to being blasted through those types of systems. In a lot of ways I think this is the most important phase because if it sounds decent and I can hear all the elements of the mix on these utter POS emus while keeping them sounding nice through all the OTHER stuff then I've gotten that consistency I need. BUT trying to make the mix sound "perfect" on those emus will destroy the mix on everything else so you gotta know what those types of systems sound like IRL (which I do because I've spent most of my music listening life listening on crap like that). You just kind of nudge things up, down, out of the way until it's even and not too harsh/boomy and that's all you can do. Once you get back to the better emus or bring it up into your real monitors/headphones it'll not necessarily sound "better or worse" because it can go either way and this step is mostly about making compromises in the mix so the mix CAN be listened to through such devices. IME it will usually detract a little bit from my "preferred" sound on the higher quality systems but it has to be done to get "real world" consistency. After all that I'll start checking it out on the pile of consumer headphones I have around, through my monitors, through my various sets of desktop speakers and if I didn't have to worry about noise in this POS apartment I'd put it through my two good stereo systems. Usually it stands up well. One other trick I do is to mimic the "Mono into a single Auratone" technique that pro studios use. To do that I hit the interleave button on my Master bus to dump it all down to mono and pump it through the Auratone Emu in the studio environment setting. Of course it ain't the same as the real deal (because it's going through headphones) but it does expose a lot of stuff as well (the whole point of that trick is to find any frequency masking through a small/weak speaker). I'll also check out the mix in mono through the other emus as well just because I can but yeah... it's a ghetto arse way of doing the Auratone/Mono trick. Okay... so I will reiterate that as I do this I don't flip around all over the place between the emus. It's best to stick to one emu for a good hunk of the track (or the whole track) to listen for problems and a/b it with SIMILAR emus. Make your tweaks as it rolls. Stop, try another emu letting the track play (no intense flipping around). Using the MixControl feature in Sonar or using Save As so you can return to previous mixes and exporting into an a/b track where you load it up with your various mixes so you can easily compare what tweaks work and which don't etc are all things I do. Flipping around like crazy is useless. Lots of breaks are necessary too I find when using the VRM because it's easy to have your ears adjust to a specific emu then you just start screwing things up. Usually when I think things are getting stupid I'll come back the next day, check again through all the emus and everything is golden. There seems to be a real art/process to using this tool and it is a lot of extra screwing around but it certainly does seem to be worth it to me. I've also gotten a lot faster and calculated at it all the more familiar I get with the program and all the emus. Long post is loooong but it might help folks get a little more out of their VRM units. There isn't really a lot of in depth instructionals about HOW to use it effectively. I had to figure all this out through just playing with it. Cheers.
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joden
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Re: Alternative to the new "headphone mix" plugin?
2015/11/23 11:54:03
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MAGIC! Thanks Beep. That is an excellent primer - with some nice methodology - for a new (soon) user. Much appreciated. Dennis
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Beepster
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Re: Alternative to the new "headphone mix" plugin?
2015/11/23 11:57:02
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joden MAGIC! Thanks Beep. That is an excellent primer - with some nice methodology - for a new (soon) user. Much appreciated. Dennis
Right on man. It's probably gonna freak you out at first. The first time I used it I kept ripping off my headphones to make sure my monitors weren't blasting... even though they weren't even on. It seriously does sound like sound being pushed through the air. Freaky deaky. lulz...
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