awilki01
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Another hardware vs. software thread
I am a huge advocate for software synths, but I find myself questioning it on occasion. Check out this hardware synth HERE It makes me want to spend the $2000 for it - of course, I won't though  It sounds so clean and smooth. I'm just not sure software is quite here yet. I think it will be one day soon. Feel free to post any thoughts and/or opinions.
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lawapa
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RE: Another hardware vs. software thread
2006/08/12 22:19:09
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Do ya gig Hardware was/is da bomb. I got some myself and if money grew on trees I'd have some more. But for me hardware was all about working within the limits. Can be done mind you and was for quite a while. Well by quite a while I mean a tad longer that it takes for your new computer to be obsoliete,  Pawn shops have a lot of flotsam washing up that is stll very useable. If you take the time to learn what's what and prices for. The new stuff/workstations and the lot are kinda cool but the truly unique stuff is no longer made. Well, There are exceptions to all rules. Me because I do that tweak thing, having a computer to digest/process and save every aspect of that helps. The ultimate organization tool? You can drown in to much data. In the final analisys. Hardware is cool, has a place, and gets the job done. But the computer is fast replacing all that for reasons that become very apparent if you get involved.
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AT
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RE: Another hardware vs. software thread
2006/08/12 22:46:50
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Yea, that is one synth I'd love. And funny, it is probably one that would do well on the computer. go figure.
My other hardware lust is the dave smith.
https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
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awilki01
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RE: Another hardware vs. software thread
2006/08/12 23:45:27
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Tell me. I know many people use DAWs and external hardware synths? How do the two co-exist? I know you could record the input in raw audio, but there has to be a better way to merge the two. For example, lets say I had a Roland V-Synth XT (I'm dreaming now) and I wanted to use it in some tracks within Sonar 5. Without having to go through the hassle of recording straight audio from the V-Synth into Sonar as straight audio, how would I go about doing that in Sonar? I had asked this question in the TranceAddict forums and this is the response I got:
In cubase sx3 you can add a synth when you use the external instruments, pressing F4. That way you can use it inside the DAW environment which is really one of the greatest new features of cubase. Another possibility would be to route the output to a mixer and also connect the pc outputs to that mixer, that's the (oldskool) way I work.
Reference: REFERENCE How would you do this in Sonar 5?
post edited by awilki01 - 2006/08/13 00:02:31
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AT
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RE: Another hardware vs. software thread
2006/08/13 00:28:06
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You work on it as Midi until you are finished. Then you have to record it as audio into SONAR or a complete mix into P5 via the stereo input, but obviously one track at a time or (if you have the synths and A/D inputs) all at once is more flexible. Once it is audio you treat it like anything else. That is how I do my softsynths, too, eventually, since I prefer to use my CPU on effects, not softsynths.
With hardware, you can also do a live mix plus stem mixes from your computer (A/D/A permitting). That is why a lot of line/sub mixers are appearing. They take 16 to 32 highquality line inputs and mix to stereo output, the theory being analog is better at mixing than bandwidth limited computers, tho SONAR at 64 bit isn't so cramped.
As always, there are about a 1/2 dozen ways to do the same thing and nobody agrees on the right way.
@
https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
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three_eyed_otter
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RE: Another hardware vs. software thread
2006/08/13 00:54:19
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Well you don't have to setup a controller w/hardware. I find hardware superuber fun while looping because I can just tweek away. When I say looping I mean running the midi out to the hardware and then audio outs into the soundcard.
have a good one
3Eo
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lawapa
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RE: Another hardware vs. software thread
2006/08/13 07:09:13
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So no one samples in the outboard synth and then plays the sound using Dpro/Rapture? At this point if I use a external sound for sequencing. I just sample in the sound. Make a set/loop a hard synth sound down to a wavetable almost and it's in the computer for as long as you keep the set.
Doing a midi track works well and recording in the sound once you've got the sequence is easy although you can't do much to re-adjust the track once you record.
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Rick McNab 
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RE: Another hardware vs. software thread
2006/08/13 07:42:32
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I don't know. I'm a hard core analog purist. But Rapture has me convinced that softies are the way to go. Okay, softies and a Moog Voyager. Okay, softies and a Moog Voyager and a Dave Smith Poly Evolver Keyboard. Okay, softies and a Moog Voyager and a Dave Smith Poly Evolver Keyboard and that really cool modular stuff they were showing in the analog synth basement at Winter NAMM.
But seriously, Rapture so far satisfies my analog need, and it is just so much more practical.
But if you are checking out hardware VAs, I would check out the Korg Radias. It sounds AMAZING!
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fac
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RE: Another hardware vs. software thread
2006/08/13 09:07:04
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ORIGINAL: awilki01
Tell me. I know many people use DAWs and external hardware synths? How do the two co-exist? I know you could record the input in raw audio, but there has to be a better way to merge the two.
It's all MIDI. For example, I have my HW synths MIDI'ed up to the computer via an M-Audio Midisport 8x8 interface. The outputs of each synth go into my mixer, as the outputs of my audio interface. So everything, HW and SW synths get mixed and the output of the mixer goes back into the audio interface. So I have either the option to record HW synths as audio tracks (which I've been doing lately), or record them as MIDI tracks. When the mix is finished, I just set a new audio track to record the mixer's output and play the whole project from start to end. Then I just mute everything but the mix track and apply the mastering chain to it. It's easy Of course, if everything's recorded as audio, I'd just render the project.
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fac
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RE: Another hardware vs. software thread
2006/08/13 09:14:34
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ORIGINAL: lawapa
So no one samples in the outboard synth and then plays the sound using Dpro/Rapture? At this point if I use a external sound for sequencing. I just sample in the sound. Make a set/loop a hard synth sound down to a wavetable almost and it's in the computer for as long as you keep the set.
Sometimes, I do. But you lose something by doing that. For example, I have a few samples of my analog synths for when I want to do pads or polyphonic stuff in general. I have a few sfz multisamples, and also an analog drum kit which I sampled into a Yamaha SU-10. I've also used Cameleon5000 to resynthesize some of those sounds (and in some cases obtained better results than with sampling). However, most of the fun and character of a particular synth comes when appliying expression to it. In this case, sounds are not static and samples will not reproduce all the nuances that come from tweaking the synth while playing it. Of course you could tweak DimPro instead, but then you would lose the original synth's character (which may be good, bad, or neutral). In short, sampling works for some sounds but not for others.
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fac
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RE: Another hardware vs. software thread
2006/08/13 09:19:54
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But if you are checking out hardware VAs, I would check out the Korg Radias. It sounds AMAZING!
No doubt about it. But the demos don't do it justice. I have a Korg MS2000R (the Radias predecessor) and it's one of my most used synths. So easy to program and can make a wide variety of sounds. The downside is the low polyphony (4 voices - and it does beautiful pads), but the Radias fixes that. The Radias is out of my budget but it doesn't matter because I just got a second MS2000R for $100. Now I can dedicate one to pads and the other to noises/bass/bells/leads/etc.
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Rick McNab
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RE: Another hardware vs. software thread
2006/08/14 04:22:00
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Hey fac, I assume you're using Sonar. If so, how does the timing line up when you use both hardware and software synths. i.e. I've got a Fantom-XR module. If I used it for drums and bass and then used Rapture for pads and leads would their be any timing issues or need to shift tracks back and forth? Ultimately I would like to use both my hardware and Rapture together in tracks.
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mosspa
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RE: Another hardware vs. software thread
2006/08/14 11:45:01
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ORIGINAL: Rick McNab
Hey fac, I assume you're using Sonar. If so, how does the timing line up when you use both hardware and software synths. i.e. I've got a Fantom-XR module. If I used it for drums and bass and then used Rapture for pads and leads would their be any timing issues or need to shift tracks back and forth? Ultimately I would like to use both my hardware and Rapture together in tracks.
I mix external hardware synths and softsynths all the time. I haven't seen any timing problems when, say, simultaneously recording an Oberheim Matrix 1000 track, a Kurzweil K2500 track, and a Yamaha AX1x track with M1, FM7, and Wavestation softsynth tracks playing in SONAR 5PE.
John AsRock Taichi 399, AMD Threadripper 1950x O.C. 4.0GHz. 64GB DDR4-3200, Win 10 Pro, Focusrite Scarlet 18i 20/Scarlet Octo Pre. Frontier Design Apache ADAT routing, MOTU MTP MIDI Routing
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beethoven17
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RE: Another hardware vs. software thread
2006/08/14 14:55:01
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I'm a definite soft synth fan...but with one little worry: will I at some point have to pay to upgrade to new versions of everything I buy?
When I moved to WinXP a few years ago, Cakewalk Pro Audio 9 would no longer record MIDI signals at the right time...and Cakewalk gave me no option but to buy Sonar. If when Windows Vista comes along I'm faced with the prospect of repurchasing every soft synth...well I might decide that hardware's better after all!
andrew Sonar 8.5 PE, Saffire LE, Garritan Steinway & Orchestra, EZDummer, Rapture, Truepiano, no voice, little talent
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mosspa
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RE: Another hardware vs. software thread
2006/08/14 15:42:02
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ORIGINAL: beethoven17
I'm a definite soft synth fan...but with one little worry: will I at some point have to pay to upgrade to new versions of everything I buy?
When I moved to WinXP a few years ago, Cakewalk Pro Audio 9 would no longer record MIDI signals at the right time...and Cakewalk gave me no option but to buy Sonar. If when Windows Vista comes along I'm faced with the prospect of repurchasing every soft synth...well I might decide that hardware's better after all!
But, nothing stops you from keeping an XP machine aaround to use as a glorified MIDI module. Before I adopted FX-Teleport, I had 4 computers MIDI slaved to my SONAR DAW. Now I do everything with FX, so the issue is moot.
John AsRock Taichi 399, AMD Threadripper 1950x O.C. 4.0GHz. 64GB DDR4-3200, Win 10 Pro, Focusrite Scarlet 18i 20/Scarlet Octo Pre. Frontier Design Apache ADAT routing, MOTU MTP MIDI Routing
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fac
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RE: Another hardware vs. software thread
2006/08/15 14:40:04
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ORIGINAL: Rick McNab
Hey fac, I assume you're using Sonar. If so, how does the timing line up when you use both hardware and software synths.
Depending on the song and the synth, I may need to slide some tracks from HW synths. Some songs need to be very tight, while others may be more "loose". For example, I seldom program beats in my Korg ER-1 because it's a very hands-on drum machine. In order to use those beats within a song, there are various ways to do it: 1) Record the beat as audio and make a loop (groove clip) out of it. Then just copy and drag where needed. The automatic groove slicer usually takes care of the timing. 2) Sync the ER-1 to Sonar and record a performance as audio (while tweaking knobs on the ER-1). There will be a very short sync'ing latency so it may be necessary to slide back the resulting track a bit (depending on the tightness of the song). 3) Sync the ER-1 to Sonar and record a performance as MIDI. In this case, the latency will be slightly larger and the timing will be a bit looser because of the amount of MIDI data being transferred (lots of control messages), but I will be able to correct problems with the performance (e.g.- feedback gone too far, etc.) by editing the MIDI data. In most of my songs I don't have to worry about timing, but when I layer two or three drum tracks, it is sometimes necessary to line up things that may be out of phase or produce noticeable delays.
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Trusty
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RE: Another hardware vs. software thread
2006/08/15 18:03:48
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ORIGINAL: AT
Yea, that is one synth I'd love. And funny, it is probably one that would do well on the computer. go figure.
I've been singing this song for a while as well... V-Synth (and expansion cards) should come out as a software instrument...along with plenty of other Roland stuff. Why Cakewalk isn't putting on some pressure with their "partnership" to get this done is beyond me. Groovesynth and the Edirol stuff is just silly compared to what they could be doing...
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mosspa
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RE: Another hardware vs. software thread
2006/08/15 19:31:58
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ORIGINAL: Trusty
Why Cakewalk isn't putting on some pressure with their "partnership" to get this done is beyond me. Groovesynth and the Edirol stuff is just silly compared to what they could be doing...
Cakewalk putting pressure on Roland would kinda be like Acme Gas Caps putting pressure on GM
John AsRock Taichi 399, AMD Threadripper 1950x O.C. 4.0GHz. 64GB DDR4-3200, Win 10 Pro, Focusrite Scarlet 18i 20/Scarlet Octo Pre. Frontier Design Apache ADAT routing, MOTU MTP MIDI Routing
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lawapa
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RE: Another hardware vs. software thread
2006/08/15 21:12:33
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Cakewalk putting pressure on Roland would kinda be like Acme Gas Caps putting pressure on GM Hardware vs software? I can't even imagine that. Somethings will always be a tad better done with hardware but I also can't imagine that market doing nothing but getting smaller. What I've always wondered though was why didn't the hardware guys make a synth box you just connect to the comp like through firewire/usb. I don't mean midi, I mean so the synth/effects could be a tad more than virtual, with audio in/out and midi in/out with full interaction within a host as if the synth was soft but all processing was external. The uad is kinda like that but it's pci and way not portable= so not user friendly. For a DAW it rocks but we need the portability factor. If it can't gig it's a studio toy.
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awilki01
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RE: Another hardware vs. software thread
2006/08/16 01:05:39
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Thanks for answering that timing question, fac. I had the same question. I feel MIDI is inherantly flawed based solely on the fact there are only 128 different levels per channel (from what I gather). This in itself causes an aliasing effect when adjusting knobs via MIDI. Take Rapture for example, when I adjust the knob on my external MIDI controller and I want to cycle between 8 Hz to 22500 Hz (the rounded off range of the filters on Rapture) on a LP filter, the smallest possible step that can be taken using MIDI is roughly 175 Hz!!! That in itself causes aliasing of the sound! You can actually hear the steps as you slowly adjust the knob. Granted, normally I would not use the full range of frequencies, so I can easily MIDI control a filter using the Modulation Matrix and setting the depth to the desired level such that the aliasing is reduced. You can also get non-aliasing using the envelopes and such as well, but there is not much manual control of it once it's set up. Hardware is most likely not limited to that full range 'knob' issue. I'm sure the manufacturers of good hardware make those knobs ultra sensitive such that the smallest movement makes a change. I would imagine there are probably around 500+ states on a good piece of hardware for it's knobs' full range of control. Am I off in left field here? I was just hearing some major range filter sweeps on that Roland V-Synth demo and I was amazed at the clarity and perfection of transition. Adam Edit: WOW!!! I am listening to the Korg Radias demos. I want one!!!!! I am actually getting goosebumps!!! I cannot believe how awesome this sounds! I sound like a little kid in a candy store, I know. But, it's just so cool! It can be yours for around $1700 US http://www.korg.com/downloads/mp3/RADIAS/Stratosphere.mp3
post edited by awilki01 - 2006/08/16 01:44:35
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mosspa
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RE: Another hardware vs. software thread
2006/08/16 02:14:00
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ORIGINAL: awilki01
Edit:
WOW!!! I am listening to the Korg Radias demos. I want one!!!!! I am actually getting goosebumps!!! I cannot believe how awesome this sounds! I sound like a little kid in a candy store, I know. But, it's just so cool! It can be yours for around $1700 US
http://www.korg.com/downloads/mp3/RADIAS/Stratosphere.mp3
Just another good sounding fad synth. Wait a year and you will be able to get one for under $500, even cheaper on ebay.
John AsRock Taichi 399, AMD Threadripper 1950x O.C. 4.0GHz. 64GB DDR4-3200, Win 10 Pro, Focusrite Scarlet 18i 20/Scarlet Octo Pre. Frontier Design Apache ADAT routing, MOTU MTP MIDI Routing
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fac
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RE: Another hardware vs. software thread
2006/08/16 09:07:10
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ORIGINAL: mosspa
ORIGINAL: awilki01
Edit:
WOW!!! I am listening to the Korg Radias demos. I want one!!!!! I am actually getting goosebumps!!! I cannot believe how awesome this sounds! I sound like a little kid in a candy store, I know. But, it's just so cool! It can be yours for around $1700 US
http://www.korg.com/downloads/mp3/RADIAS/Stratosphere.mp3
Just another good sounding fad synth. Wait a year and you will be able to get one for under $500, even cheaper on ebay.
Good sounding? Yes. Fad synth? Hardly. Look at the MS2000. It's been out for six years and already had a reissue. It's still being sought after. Sure, they dropped in price about two years after its release, but the price has mantained since then. The Radias is just a pumped up MS2000. Right now it costs $1700 (kb version), so maybe next year it'll be around $1200 new (with some luck). So you may expect a used one in the $800-$1000 range, no less. At least, that's what I think. Right now, you can get a MS2000 second hand for about $400-$500, but they are older and cost $750 new.
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b rock
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RE: Another hardware vs. software thread
2006/08/16 09:08:02
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I cringe when I see these "versus" threads, because there's a place for both "types" as defined by common usage. Yet anything you touch nowadays is a combination of hardware & software, and that just makes the line even more subjective & fuzzy. I feel MIDI is inherantly flawed based solely on the fact there are only 128 different levels per channel The MIDI spec itself is holding up remarkably well for its age. There's provision in it for dozens of 14-bit controller messages that could yield 16,384 increments, but hardly any manufacturer uses them. Thousands more high-precision messages are available if you consider xRPNs. But you also have to consider what you have controlling them. Adam, do I remember correctly that you're using an M-Audio controller? The newer ones may have tighter tolerances, but I have a couple of old Oxygen8's here. I'd be lucky to get 40-60 distinct levels of control out of those knobs. The Novations' controls easily reduce to 128 increments of control. Download Bome's SendSX donationware as a MIDI monitor. You don't have to know hexidecimal to use it; just set the MIDI In to your KB controller's port, and see how fine of an increment that you're transmitting. The Alesis Ion here boasts of 12-bit precision continuous encoders. It takes a significant amount of "twist" to get Rapture's GUI controls to nudge up an increment under MIDI Learn; quite close to using the Shift+Up Arrow method of fine adjustment. In your filter example, I was able to tweak from the base value of 8.2 Hz. to ~8.7/9.3/9.9 Hz. Try using your Pitch wheel as a source as an experiment. You probably don't want to lose that as a controller message (and it's still "hardwired" in parallel to Rapture for pitch), but that's often the finest level of control available to common controller keyboards.
post edited by b rock - 2006/08/16 22:05:36
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fac
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RE: Another hardware vs. software thread
2006/08/16 09:20:55
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ORIGINAL: awilki01
I feel MIDI is inherantly flawed based solely on the fact there are only 128 different levels per channel (from what I gather). This is true; however, it can be improved in two ways: 1) It is possible to use a coarse/fine controller pair in order to have 14-bit (instead of 7-bit) resolution (pitch wheels are seldom implemented this way). This amounts to 16,384 steps instead of 128, which pretty much solves the problem. However, only few MIDI controllers output coarse/fine pairs, and only few synths can receive them (or, in other words, they only use the coarse value). Another problem is that in this case, you need twice the amount of MIDI data for these messages, which results in larger transmission delays. 2) Most newer synths are able to interpolate parameters between knob adjustments and/or MIDI controller messages. For example, if your MIDI controller only sends 128 steps for the filter cutoff, so when the synth receives a MIDI CC message to change the filter cutoff, it won't just set the new value but interpolate smoothly from the current cutoff value to the new one, in order to reduce the "sample and hold" zipper effect, which, by the way, is not really aliasing. Of course, you will still have "big" steps, but they will be more "rounded".
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b rock
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RE: Another hardware vs. software thread
2006/08/16 09:53:11
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14-bit (instead of 7-bit) resolution (pitch wheels are seldom implemented this way). Agreed, Alphonso. But it's worth a quick test to determine if your pitch wheel transmits 7 bits of resolution over possibly 5- or 6-bit knobs.
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fac
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RE: Another hardware vs. software thread
2006/08/16 10:52:05
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Yeah. A simple MIDI monitor plug, like this one should help. If I recall correctly, I've been able to set any value from 0 to 127 with the knobs on my Evolution MK-225C, so it certainly has 7-bit encoders.
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b rock
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RE: Another hardware vs. software thread
2006/08/16 11:08:09
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I find it encouraging that this Ion here uses a double-precision pitch wheel at a $500 price point. If there's any place where you can use the extra resolution, pitch is certainly close to the top of the list. If it had aftertouch on the key mechanism itself, it might be closer to an ideal controller; with or without the internal sound engine. Everything transmits MIDI; even the arpeggiators.
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Rick McNab
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RE: Another hardware vs. software thread
2006/08/16 20:55:27
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Speaking of hardware synths, has anyone checked out the Roland SH-201? I think it's finally out. Sounds pretty good off of the Roland website.
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awilki01
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RE: Another hardware vs. software thread
2006/08/16 21:33:50
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ORIGINAL: b rock
Adam, do I remember correctly that you're using an M-Audio controller?
No, I have an E-MU XBoard49. I am sending 128 discrete states per knob - per my LED output that is. Therefore, I'm at 7-bits. I like what fac said. If there is a huge jump between steps, the software can smooth the transition between such that it is not a 'stair step'. That would be a function of the soft synth though. I don't 'think' Rapture has this 'smoothing' transition, but I could be mistaken. ORIGINAL: Rick McNab
Speaking of hardware synths, has anyone checked out the Roland SH-201? I think it's finally out. Sounds pretty good off of the Roland website.
Let me check. Nope, no goosebumps. I wasn't that impressed with the demo sound on the web page. Korg Radias = goosebumps = good Adam
post edited by awilki01 - 2006/08/16 21:49:40
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René
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RE: Another hardware vs. software thread
2006/08/17 09:32:01
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I don't 'think' Rapture has this 'smoothing' transition, but I could be mistaken. It definitely does, and so does Dimension Pro. It lives as the fourth field of the Modulation Matrix, and it's called 'Smooth'. There you can control the time for the interpolation: longer values will calculate more values (and consequently take longer to move from value A to value B). -René
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