gitarman4u
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( Answered) control surface or not ???
I have a question for anyone who uses control surfaces or a matter of opinion ... I like the idea of using a control surface instead of a mouse for everything and my question is this: I have a limited budget right now ( around $300.00) for gear and would I be better off using this for a control surface, different mics, plugins, tube preamp , etc ... I have a akai midi keyboard that can also be used as a control surface ... I like the idea but with this, I can only control the first 8 channels .. are all control surfaces like this and which ones work best with Sonar X2a ? I have most of what I need in mics and hardware except a tube preamp but not sure I can get what I need in a pre amp for $300 or less .. any info or opinions would be appreciated ..
post edited by gitarman4u - 2013/11/13 20:37:01
Sonar X3e Producer , Dell I5 2nd gen., 8 gig ram, windows 7 64 bit. Roland Quad Capture interface, Tascam US-800 interface , Line 6 pod, mesa boogie Mark III , Mesa Boogie Express 5:50, Zion guitar, Les Paul guitar, Ovation accoustic, fender P bass, akai mini laptop keyboard, M Audio 49 Key keystation, Shure,MXL,Audio Tech mics
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garrigus
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Re: control surface or not ???
2013/08/29 14:38:52
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☄ Helpfulby bobguitkillerleft 2013/09/24 17:13:18
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konradh
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Re: control surface or not ???
2013/08/29 14:46:16
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My VS-700 does 8 at a time. I like it fine, esp since you can drag tracks around in Sonar and hide them.
One thing: with other control surfaces, I don't know how they integrate to Sonar. For example, I can hide MIDI tracks in Sonar and they don't show up on the control surface. If you don't have that feature, then you would just want to group.
Konrad Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/ Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka. Rokit 6s.
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WDI
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Re: control surface or not ???
2013/08/29 14:58:28
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☄ Helpfulby bobguitkillerleft 2013/09/24 17:14:19
Control surfaces are great. But really if you want to use one for mixing you need motorized faders and panners that know the current state and good ones are pretty expensive. A huge problem is control surface support. A control surface is only as good as its implementation in the software. The problem arises with the constant updating of the DAW software. The once working control surface becomes broken and the responsibility to fix it usually falls through the cracks between Cakewalk and the developer so your left with a half functioning piece of hardware. I blame Cakewalk as much as I do the developer. If cakewalk makes changes that will effect their control surface API then they should take the time to update the API for backwards compatibility. They have not been good at doing that. My CM Labs Motormix only half functions under Sonar 7 while it worked perfect in Sonar 4. The CM Labs Motormix is not limited to 8 tracks. It could control as many tracks, buses and mains as you have in your project. Most control surfaces function this way. A control surface with MCU support is your best bet for DAW software compatibility. On a limmited budget I'd probably use the money for something other than a control surface. Although I do believe there are some inexpensive ones maybe like Berlinger or something that people can chime in on and let you know if they work good.
post edited by WDI - 2013/08/29 15:08:21
Sonar 7 PE Windows XP Pofessional (SP3) MSI K8N Neo4-F AMD Athlon 64 3500+ 2 GB PC 3200 Ram RME Fireface 800 Edirol FA-66 CM Labs MotorMix Old stuff: ARJO
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bitflipper
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Re: control surface or not ???
2013/08/29 16:39:00
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☄ Helpfulby bobguitkillerleft 2013/09/24 17:14:28
IMO a cheap control surface is a waste of desk space and money. Without motorized faders, it's less than useless for mixing. You still have to look at the screen to see what's what. And I haven't mixed an 8-track project since, well, the days of 8-track recorders. Nowadays, 40 tracks is a small project. I would make one exception: if you are a synthesist and you are fond of real-time parameter tweaking as a means of expression, then physical knobs are a must. But you can use an inexpensive controller such as a Korg Nanokontrol (60 bucks) for that.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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doncolga
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Re: control surface or not ???
2013/08/29 17:33:59
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I've never used a control surface. Ditto on what bit said about still having to look at the screen. I figured since I was still going to be looking at the screen so much anyway, I'd just do it all there. I use the PC keyboard for transport control and you can set key bindings for lots of other things off the PC keyboard as well.
HP Z220 Workstation I7 3770, 8 GB RAM, Windows 10, Sonar Platinum, RME Multiface II via PCIe, JBL 4326 w/sub, AvanTone MixCubes
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John
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Re: control surface or not ???
2013/08/29 19:07:11
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I agree with WDI entirely. I have an MC (Mackie Control) that has worked perfectly since the day I got it. I wouldn't be with out it. That said if all I had was $300 I would save my money and wait until I had enough for an MCU Pro or put it into better monitors or something.
But in the end its up to you what you want to do with your money.
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doncolga
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Re: control surface or not ???
2013/08/29 20:05:45
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John
I agree with WDI entirely. I have an MC (Mackie Control) that has worked perfectly since the day I got it. I wouldn't be with out it. That said if all I had was $300 I would save my money and wait until I had enough for an MCU Pro or put it into better monitors or something.
But in the end its up to you what you want to do with your money.
Hey John, Which one in particular do you have?..MCU Pro? Donny
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Leadfoot
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Re: control surface or not ???
2013/08/29 20:34:17
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You might wanna take a look on eBay for a used Tascam US-2400. It's got 24 100mm motorized faders and at least 24 rotary controls. They usually go for around $500.
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konradh
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Re: control surface or not ???
2013/08/29 21:42:35
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V-Studio has motorized faders and is perfectly integrated. Since Roland is apparently not going forward with this product, you can probably find one for not too much—but it would still be more than a few hundred bucks. The Nucleus is great but it costs even more.
Konrad Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/ Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka. Rokit 6s.
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John
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Re: control surface or not ???
2013/08/29 22:08:33
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doncolga
John
I agree with WDI entirely. I have an MC (Mackie Control) that has worked perfectly since the day I got it. I wouldn't be with out it. That said if all I had was $300 I would save my money and wait until I had enough for an MCU Pro or put it into better monitors or something.
But in the end its up to you what you want to do with your money.
Hey John,
Which one in particular do you have?..MCU Pro?
Donny
Interesting story about this. I have the original Mackie Control. I did have the Logic Control. You may know this but the Logic control preceded the Mackie Control. One reason I never say anything good about Apple is because of what happen when they bought out Emagic. I had been very much into Logic and had bought it with Sound Diver and an AMT 8 and then a Logic Control. Apple in effect said all PC users are now orphaned. We had no recourse. We could buy a Mac and continue using Logic or switch. I choose to stay with CW which I had been with longer anyway. Now I mentioned this situation to the guy at Guitar Center where I had bough nearly all my gear from and he offered to exchange it for a Mackie Control. Believe it or not I took a week to decide and traded in the L C for the Mackie Control. I haven't looked back since except with a bitter taste in my mouth from a rotten apple. The Mackie Control and the Logic Control are the same device. The firmware is different.
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BenMMusTech
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Re: control surface or not ???
2013/08/29 22:35:59
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They're fast becoming obsolete, within two years IMHO touch screens will obsolete this technology, particulary for the hobbiest/home studio/project studio owner. Why would you bother with a control surface if your screen can do the job. But again just my opinion.
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AT
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Re: control surface or not ???
2013/08/29 22:54:09
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Go w/ a touchscreen. There is also the vs100 which was on sale at Guitar Center for $300 I think. Motorized fader. Plus interface. Plus location recorder. Plus SONAR front end.
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riojazz
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Re: control surface or not ???
2013/08/29 22:57:09
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Along the lines of the last two posts about control surfaces becoming obsolete, and touch screens, an iPad makes a fine control surface when paired with a good app, such as V-Control Pro.
Software: Cakewalk by Bandlab; Adobe Audition; Band-in-A-Box audiophile; Izotope Ozone; Encore; Melodyne; Win 10 Pro, 64-bit. Hardware: Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 2nd; Roland Integra-7; TCE Finalizer; Presonus Central Station, Behringer X-Touch. Home built i7 with 16 GB RAM, SSDs.
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John
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Re: control surface or not ???
2013/08/29 22:59:13
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BenMMusTech
They're fast becoming obsolete, within two years IMHO touch screens will obsolete this technology, particulary for the hobbiest/home studio/project studio owner. Why would you bother with a control surface if your screen can do the job. But again just my opinion.
I think this is said by some one that may have never used a quality CS. I have used a touch screen and they are not the same or offer the same things.
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bitman
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Re: control surface or not ???
2013/08/29 23:07:54
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40 faders, 40 x 4 knobs of EQ / Comp / Sat . Instant recall
All laid out comfortably before you.
Yes.
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BenMMusTech
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Re: control surface or not ???
2013/08/29 23:58:34
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John
BenMMusTech
They're fast becoming obsolete, within two years IMHO touch screens will obsolete this technology, particulary for the hobbiest/home studio/project studio owner. Why would you bother with a control surface if your screen can do the job. But again just my opinion.
I think this is said by some one that may have never used a quality CS. I have used a touch screen and they are not the same or offer the same things.
Actually I have used decent control surfaces and I have used Ipad controllers as well. Were you are right is they do feel different, that is a control surface and a touch screen. The tactial feel of a control surface vs a touchscreen is up to the indivdual but you get use to the different feel.
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Leadfoot
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Re: control surface or not ???
2013/08/30 09:02:58
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I hope to never have to use a touch screen in my studio.
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brconflict
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Re: control surface or not ???
2013/08/30 09:44:06
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I've spent thousands of $ for mics, pre's, A/D, computer, and plug-ins. I still don't use a control surface, and I came from an analog console. For me, the mouse is the easiest and most accurate way I can tweak. No longer do I mix directly with faders as much as I do with incoming signal and output of the final plug-in on any given channel. I also don't Automate using faders much anymore, either.
A control surface is nice, but they can't control everything on your screen, and you're forced to still use a mouse. Plus, and I'll agree with bitflipper, if the control surface isn't a great one, (in my opinion, a FULL 32+ channel console), it's going to get in the way. I haven't liked any of them I've tried, except the big $60,000 AVID consoles, and I still don't like a track-ball.
More, if you have issues with Sonar, issues between Sonar and the console, or simply issues with the console, I think you'd be literally throwing it off the desk and grabbing the mouse.
So, if you've come from a console, and really miss it, I'd shop for a GOOD control surface, and learn it inside-out. Work out any kinks, and keep sailing. For me, I'm happy spending the money elsewhere. I simply can't justify the money for a decent control surface.
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bobguitkillerleft
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Re: control surface or not ???
2013/08/30 10:39:19
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For maybe a tiny bit of perspective,I bought a perfect cond. VS-100 for $163 AUD,but I have yet to use it as a controller,it's just easier[for me ATM]to use X2,via the mouse/touchpad[laptop]and the left/right clicks. I have to say though the sound,both going in,but especially controlling it going out is far and away better than all of the "bus" powered USB interfaces,that have come and gone in the last 2 and a bit years,there is definitely something to be said for an interface that can draw more power than the 5volt maximum of the USB buss. I would probably look at the control part of the equation far more seriously if I had the VS-700 though,they're definitely not so low priced down here used,in fact I've yet to see more than one,which is possibly an attest to people keeping them,a bit like the RME brand in that regard,I've only seen one used Babyface on Ebay here,RME's attraction for me is the well written drivers,especially for USB[hint Roland-or at least an update! for the VS-100  ] Bob
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AT
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Re: control surface or not ???
2013/08/30 10:54:45
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A good physical control surface is great. But even the vs700 is a bit confusing for more obscure tasks. It is really impossible to have a mechanical control surface that does everything - you still have to use a mouse and look at a screen. But a physical rotary and fader are better than a virtual one.
I still would love to see cake come out w/ a vs 150 w/ a motorized fader, physical knobs and touch screen large enough to program effects/synths and move around a project (something touch can do well and at a low cost).
In the meanwhile, Argus has a win 8, 23 inch, multi-touch, adjustable sceen angle monitor for $400. That is the future, esp. as prices drop. You can control every aspect of SONAR and add a fader or fader pack/knobs and program those for tactile response. Until someone figures out something better.
@
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http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
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ston
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Re: control surface or not ???
2013/08/30 11:01:32
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I've been looking at the kickstarter'd QuNeo recently. Interesting, but I've not been tempted enough yet to part money for that type of controller.
For a touchscreen-based controller the iPad is the best bet.
Currently I have the controller capabilities of the PCR-300 k/b and I also dabble with TouchDAW on my Nexus 7 and more recently the Geco MIDI controller application running on the Leap Motion controller. That is surprisingly fun to use.
More than anything else though, I use my mouse 'cos it's an accurately-tracking high DPI gaming mouse and provides really good control.
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Middleman
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Re: control surface or not ???
2013/08/30 11:18:51
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Left to my natural state, I end up using the mouse. My controllers eventually ended up not being used. I have an Alphatrack and a Tranzport which I had incorporated in my workflow for awhile. It just ended up being easier and faster to use a mouse. I still use the Tranzport for remote operation of the PC when I am tracking guitar and vocals, but not for mixing or operation of the PC if I am in front of the monitor. Set up for hybrid mixing here as well and use a Crest 20 channel console for printing and final mix. Not helpful for automation which is done in the box but love having 20 channels of hardware EQ at the ready. I am also in the camp of not using another device for a controller, I prefer focusing on the mix rather than another screen.
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Leadfoot
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Re: control surface or not ???
2013/08/30 11:58:15
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I've got a Presonus Faderport that I like using for transport and automation purposes. But other than that, I'm pretty much a mouse guy.
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DeeringAmps
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Re: control surface or not ???
2013/08/30 21:39:10
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<Reality Check>
Don't look now, Sonar's Control support is BROKEN!
We continue to use our beloved, pick one (MCU, VSxxx Tascam U or FW whatever).
Cake is scrambling to lead the way with "touch", that's the way of the future.
I hate it, but mark my words, that's where Sonar is going.
</Reality Check>
Tom
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Leadfoot
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Re: control surface or not ???
2013/08/30 22:35:52
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You're probably right. I hate it too. I don't want it. I guess I'll be using X1 Expanded and Windows 7 for the rest of my life. : }
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Grem
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Re: control surface or not ???
2013/08/30 23:03:49
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Leadfoot
You're probably right. I hate it too. I don't want it. I guess I'll be using X1 Expanded and Windows 7 for the rest of my life. : }
I have a VS100 that I got recently. I love it of rhte ability to be able to reverse the now time, while the song still plays and when I let up the button it starts playing right where I lifted up the button. Doesn't sound like much but when working, this is something I like to do. But I still reach for my keyboard. Not so much my mouse, but my keyboard always. And the way I have my screens set up, I cannot imagine trying to do all that I do with just a touch screen. Why reach when I can just keep my hands on the keyboard, or just reach right over a foot to the right, and use the VS100? So I have thought about keeping X2 and Win7 for a long long time.
Grem
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stevec
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Re: control surface or not ???
2013/08/31 12:05:14
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I'm jusing a Behringer BCF2000 just for basic mixing - faders and pan. For that purpose I really like it, and I often find it quicker to grab a fader than switch to the right channel and mouse to its fader. Particularly if I'm not doing any type of editing and only focusing on the mix. At $164 (special at Sweetwater) it was certainly worth it for me, if nothing else as a nice alternative.
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FastBikerBoy
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Re: control surface or not ???
2013/08/31 12:10:11
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If you want a great control surface with motorised faders for that sort of money look at the BCF2000. That works great in Mackie mode and while I now use a MCU + XT, prior to that I used a BCF and they are superb. There is IMHO nothing that can touch it in value for money (inc the MCU) - The MCU is better but so it should be at the price. A BCF is 90 % of an MCU at 10 % of the cost.
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stevec
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Re: control surface or not ???
2013/08/31 12:24:55
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OK, Karl, that was scary timing... 
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