Anyone interested in trying Windows 7

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sgerick
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RE: Anyone interested in trying Windows 7 2009/05/10 12:46:07 (permalink)
Ok. SO I have run into my first major roadblock. VSTs don't seem to be working at all. I don't get menu option under softsynths or in the effects bin for VST. When I scan existing VSTs it fails about it gets through the Sonar supplied VST.

Steve Gerick
VeeVeeVee Productions
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#31
sgerick
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RE: Anyone interested in trying Windows 7 2009/05/10 13:03:11 (permalink)
I reached my first major setback. VSTs don't seem to work now. I get no options on the insert for softsynths or effects. All of my Sonar and Sonar supplied effects and instruments work fine.

Steve Gerick
VeeVeeVee Productions
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#32
vanceen
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RE: Anyone interested in trying Windows 7 2009/05/10 15:19:15 (permalink)
I tried out Windows 7 for a couple of months. I came away with two impressions.

First, Windows 7 "felt" smoother and more responsive than XP SP3 and Vista SP1. But the Vista SP2 release candidate improved Vista so much for audio work that I couldn't see any difference with Windows 7. (Both were the x64 versions, running SONAR x64.)

Second, there were more things that didn't work under Windows 7 than under Vista. I never got Rapture to start at at all under Windows 7. Still, most of my plug-ins worked with either OS.

On balance, the difference between Vista SP2 RC and Windows 7 was so small that it did not seem worth it to do without some of my instruments and to be using a beta as my main OS.


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#33
jamescater
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RE: Anyone interested in trying Windows 7 2009/05/10 15:33:28 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Freddie H


ORIGINAL: jamescater



Please don't get excited about the XP within windows 7 feature. It is only really suitable for legacy applications that cannot run in Windows Vista/7

When you run XP applications this way then Windows 7 will create an entire Windows XP operating sytem that will run in a virtual machine within Windows 7.
As you can imagine this is not the most efficient way to run applications

a) There will be a significant performance hit for any applications running within the virtual environment
b) You will effectively be be running Windows XP, so why bother running Windows 7 at all
c) You will have to maintain 2 separate operating systems - install applications twice / tweak registry settings twice etc etc


So bottom line is it's totally unsuitable for DAW applications.


The Windows driver model changed for Vista and is identical for Windows 7. If your sound card drivers do not work on Windows Vista then they will not work on Windows 7

If your sound drivers only work on Windows XP then stay with Windows XP or get a new sound interface before trying out Windows 7.



Hi friend!


First off! Your info is not true, have look yourself!

http://channel9.msdn.com/shows/Going+Deep/Mark-Russinovich-Inside-Windows-7/




Windows 7 can use kernel32 on top of WINDOWS 7, new 64bit core layer.

Secondly you need to upgrade to Windows 7 64bit OS not another way around!
XP 32 is dieing like the dinosaurs once did and thank god for that!!

Regards
Freddie





Ok so you are now piping MORE misinformation.

You point us to an video about the Kernel improvements in Windows 7 that will help the kernel work better with more then 32 threads (a great feature, but not that relevent on desktops for a few more years)

This has nothing to do with the new XPM feature which IS a full copy of Windowss XP SP3 running inside Windows 7 in a Virtual machine....

Quote directly from the Microsoft web site....

"XP Mode consists of the Virtual PC-based virtual environment and a fully licensed copy of Windows XP with Service Pack 3 (SP3). It will be made available, for free, to users of Windows 7 Professional, Enterprise, and Ultimate editions via a download from the Microsoft web site. (That is, it will not be included in the box with Windows 7, but is considered an out-of-band update, like Windows Live Essentials.) XPM works much like today’s Virtual PC products, but with one important exception: As with the enterprise-based MED-V (Microsoft Enterprise Desktop Virtualization) product, XPM does not require you to run the virtual environment as a separate Windows desktop. Instead, as you install applications inside the virtual XP environment, they are published to the host (Windows 7) OS as well. (With shortcuts placed in the Start Menu.) That way, users can run Windows XP-based applications (like IE 6) alongside Windows 7 applications under a single desktop."

Here's the full Microsoft web page on this feature...

http://www.withinwindows.com/2009/04/24/secret-no-more-revealing-windows-xp-mode-for-windows-7/


The only change to running a normal virtual machine is that they have integrated the start menus to make the virtual machine appear more seamless.



And before you go accusing me of not knowing anything about computers I would like to point out that I have 20+ years programming experience with C / C++ / C#.
I have been architecting / coding large scale multi threaded enterprise applications for Investment banks for the last 12 years.

So bottom line is I do undestand exactly how the new windows XP mode works and if you choose to use this feature you're not "moving on" from XP but you are essentially running a 9 year operating system INSIDE Windows 7.


And for the record I do believe that Windows 7 is a viable DAW platform and we have Windows 7 x64 dual booted with Windows XP.
Windows XP is still a touch more efficient than Windows 7, but the difference is very small now and our next hardware upgrade will most likely be the end of XP for us.


#34
sgerick
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RE: Anyone interested in trying Windows 7 2009/05/10 22:45:48 (permalink)
Ok folks... There's no "right" or "wrong" answers in these forums. Only things that work and things that don't...

Until I get my VST issue I will stick with my Vista boot drive. This is the advantage of having two hard drives. What's nice about switching to the Win7 hard drive to boot is I can still access my Vista drive as Drive D: in case I need something "over there."

Steve Gerick
VeeVeeVee Productions
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#35
yummay
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RE: Anyone interested in trying Windows 7 2009/05/10 23:47:18 (permalink)
THis XP / Win 95 mode in Windows 7 is also what interests me the most in the new OS.

BUT... I am VERY suspicious about it... (because of all the hardware drivers and because of the PLUGINS....)

I have a great collectioin of plugins that works fine in XP, but I doubt it'll be the same in an XP MODE in windows 7...

What do you think about that?

Thanks

Yummay,
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#36
vicsant
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RE: Anyone interested in trying Windows 7 2009/05/11 00:20:18 (permalink)
All drivers and programs from Windows XP and there on, should work in Windows 7. Microsoft them self are very eager about this new feature in Windows 7.


Are you referring to W7 32bit or 64bit?
#37
Freddie H
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RE: Anyone interested in trying Windows 7 2009/05/11 09:14:45 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: jamescater


the difference is very small now and our next hardware upgrade will most likely be the end of XP for us.


Great!

Regards
Freddie
#38
Freddie H
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RE: Anyone interested in trying Windows 7 2009/05/11 09:18:46 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: vicsant

All drivers and programs from Windows XP and there on, should work in Windows 7. Microsoft them self are very eager about this new feature in Windows 7.


Are you referring to W7 32bit or 64bit?



It doesn't matter it should work in both environments. You can use 32bit drivers or 64bit drivers inside Windows 7 64bit. (haven't tried it myself)

Windows 7 64bit edition, the only version that really matters! I hope they drop the Windows 7, 32bit edition in final release in January 2010.

Regards
Freddie
post edited by Freddie H - 2009/05/11 09:20:12
#39
WDI
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RE: Anyone interested in trying Windows 7 2009/05/11 11:41:24 (permalink)
Well it looks like Microsoft has some kind of subliminal messaging code in Windows 7 64bit to create a microsoft Windows 7 Borg nation and Freddie H has already been assimilated. If he gets a hold of you 32bit XP system it will be assimilated also.


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#40
tarbox23
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RE: Anyone interested in trying Windows 7 2009/05/11 12:38:46 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: sgerick

Ok. SO I have run into my first major roadblock. VSTs don't seem to be working at all. I don't get menu option under softsynths or in the effects bin for VST. When I scan existing VSTs it fails about it gets through the Sonar supplied VST.


I am running Windows 7 RC x64 with Sonar 8.3.1 x64 and do not have this issue at all.

All my VST stuff works aok.

-mat tarbox

http://www.mysticmusicarc...hts/sodium-lights.html

Win7 x64 | Sonar PE 8.3.1 x64

#41
John
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RE: Anyone interested in trying Windows 7 2009/05/11 12:53:19 (permalink)
It doesn't matter it should work in both environments. You can use 32bit drivers or 64bit drivers inside Windows 7 64bit. (haven't tried it myself)
Is this true?????? If so I am on board ASAP!!!! I have Windows 7 RC 32 bit running well on my system via removable HDs. Vista is on another HD that I can insert at any time. I have been stuck with 32 bit because I have an old audio interface that has only 32 bit drivers. But I do like it.

I was not happy with Windows 7 beta at all. I could learn to love Windows 7 if it is as complete and easy to use as Vista. The beta wasn't.

Best
John
#42
CJaysMusic
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RE: Anyone interested in trying Windows 7 2009/05/11 18:59:17 (permalink)
It doesn't matter it should work in both environments. You can use 32bit drivers or 64bit drivers inside Windows 7 64bit. (haven't tried it myself)

I wish this was the same for plugins. when i go up to Win 7, im staying at 32bit. I'll lose all my plugins if i dont.
Cj

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#43
jamescater
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RE: Anyone interested in trying Windows 7 2009/05/11 19:17:02 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: CJaysMusic

It doesn't matter it should work in both environments. You can use 32bit drivers or 64bit drivers inside Windows 7 64bit. (haven't tried it myself)

I wish this was the same for plugins. when i go up to Win 7, im staying at 32bit. I'll lose all my plugins if i dont.
Cj



32 bit Sonar is a must for us as well. We just could not work without our third party 32 bit synths.
(And we're just not interested in going down the bit bridge route)

We tested the beta with 32 bit Sonar and 32bit Windows 7 which worked well.

Our latest build is Sonar 32 bit running in Windows 7 64 bit. This also works great.
(You will meed to have 64 bit sound drivers, but the rest is quite seamless.)

All of our old synths and plugs installed.

We have one project that blue screens Windows 7 every time but apart from that it's all solid.

#44
John
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RE: Anyone interested in trying Windows 7 2009/05/11 19:26:07 (permalink)
(You will meed to have 64 bit sound drivers, but the rest is quite seamless.)
So this is not true?
It doesn't matter it should work in both environments. You can use 32bit drivers or 64bit drivers inside Windows 7 64bit. (haven't tried it myself)

Best
John
#45
Dale Aston
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RE: Anyone interested in trying Windows 7 2009/05/11 20:20:03 (permalink)
I can't get Win 7 RC 64 to install the MOTU 64 bit Ultralite drivers (I know they're for Vista 64). Has anyone with a MOTU Ultralite been successful with Win 7 64?
#46
Elson
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RE: Anyone interested in trying Windows 7 2009/05/11 20:21:23 (permalink)
If I install Windows7 RC, how long will it last? Meaning, does the software expire/disable itself after a while?

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#47
John
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RE: Anyone interested in trying Windows 7 2009/05/11 20:37:02 (permalink)
The Windows 7 RC will stop working on June 1, 2010. To continue using your PC, please be prepared to reinstall a prior version of Windows or the final released version of Windows 7 before the expiration date. We recommend doing a custom (clean) installation.

Best
John
#48
jamescater
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RE: Anyone interested in trying Windows 7 2009/05/11 21:08:36 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: John

(You will meed to have 64 bit sound drivers, but the rest is quite seamless.)
So this is not true?
It doesn't matter it should work in both environments. You can use 32bit drivers or 64bit drivers inside Windows 7 64bit. (haven't tried it myself)




John,

I can confirm the above statement is NOT true.


Device drivers link directly with the Kernel process space and have to be the same as the native OS in this case 64 bit.


From the Vista x64 web page.....

The main differences between the 32-bit versions of Windows Vista and the 64-bit versions of Windows Vista relate to memory accessibility, memory management, and enhanced security features. The security features that are available in the 64-bit versions of Windows Vista include the following:

Kernel Patch Protection
Support for hardware-backed Data Execution Protection (DEP)
Mandatory driver signing
Removal of support for 32-bit drivers
Removal of the 16-bit subsystem


Please note that the device driver model has not been changed between Vista and Windows 7 so the above info is accurate for Win 7.
Windows 7 really is Vista R2 (some would even say SP3).

You can however run 32 bit applications within Windows 7 x64 including Sonar 7 x86 and all your old 32 bit legacy synths
There is a slight performance hit running Sonar x86 like this but it is minimal (probably l<3%)


post edited by jamescater - 2009/05/11 21:29:47
#49
jamescater
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RE: Anyone interested in trying Windows 7 2009/05/11 21:12:44 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Dale Aston

I can't get Win 7 RC 64 to install the MOTU 64 bit Ultralite drivers (I know they're for Vista 64). Has anyone with a MOTU Ultralite been successful with Win 7 64?





Have you tried running the MOTU installer in "legacy compatability" mode ?
Set the MOTO installer / properties / compatability to Windows Vista and then run the installer as administrator.

If the installer is on a CD then you may need to copy it to your local drive so that you can set the compatability mode.


This worked for the Intel chipset drivers back in Jan before they patched the installer in March.
#50
John
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RE: Anyone interested in trying Windows 7 2009/05/11 22:01:37 (permalink)
John,

I can confirm the above statement is NOT true.


Device drivers link directly with the Kernel process space and have to be the same as the native OS in this case 64 bit.


From the Vista x64 web page.....

The main differences between the 32-bit versions of Windows Vista and the 64-bit versions of Windows Vista relate to memory accessibility, memory management, and enhanced security features. The security features that are available in the 64-bit versions of Windows Vista include the following:

Kernel Patch Protection
Support for hardware-backed Data Execution Protection (DEP)
Mandatory driver signing
Removal of support for 32-bit drivers
Removal of the 16-bit subsystem


Please note that the device driver model has not been changed between Vista and Windows 7 so the above info is accurate for Win 7.
Windows 7 really is Vista R2 (some would even say SP3).

You can however run 32 bit applications within Windows 7 x64 including Sonar 7 x86 and all your old 32 bit legacy synths
There is a slight performance hit running Sonar x86 like this but it is minimal (probably l<3%)
Thanks James. I thought as much. Well that means I say in the 32 bit world.

Best
John
#51
jamescollins
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RE: Anyone interested in trying Windows 7 2009/05/11 22:12:50 (permalink)
My experiences - nothing but pure joy! Windows 7 RC seems to handle multi thread CPUs a lot more efficiently (I have an Intel i7 920), and as a result everything is faster and snappier than it was under XP Pro SP3. I'm amazed actually - for me, the performance has been significantly ie. very noticeably increased. All plugins work flawlessly. I'm getting lower latency with my Firestudio. I'm a very happy man.

I'll have three fingers of Glenlivet, with a little bit of pepper... and some cheese.
 
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#52
John
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RE: Anyone interested in trying Windows 7 2009/05/11 22:22:44 (permalink)
My experiences - nothing but pure joy! Windows 7 RC seems to handle multi thread CPUs a lot more efficiently (I have an Intel i7 920), and as a result everything is faster and snappier than it was under XP Pro SP3. I'm amazed actually - for me, the performance has been significantly ie. very noticeably increased. All plugins work flawlessly. I'm getting lower latency with my Firestudio. I'm a very happy man.
When I move to Vista I had the same experience. But as you I have a proper computer meant to run Vista. Windows 7 RC seems good and I agree with all you said about it. One has to be a little cautious until we see the finished OS though. I don't want to give up any of the neat things in Vista just so I can say I have Windows 7. We shall see.

Best
John
#53
jamescater
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RE: Anyone interested in trying Windows 7 2009/05/11 22:40:20 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: John
Thanks James. I thought as much. Well that means I say in the 32 bit world.



There are some benefts to moving to Windows 7 32 bit from Vista 32 bit

Most notably is the graphics driver optimisation which saves RAM and will raise your max Sonar project size.

We have a couple of projects that we cannot add more synths on XP because Sonar runs out of memory. On Windows 7 there seems to be an extra 100Mb of headroom.


Also if you are running 32 bit Windows and you have 4Gb RAM it's worth changing the system to allow your processes to use up to 3GB RAM

This "3GB switch" mechanism changed from XP to Vista.
To configure Vista / Windows 7 for 3Gb user space you need to do the following

Find the cmd.exe application
Run the cmd.exe as administrator

Then type in the following in the cmd window...

BCDEDIT /set increaseuserva 3072

Then reboot






#54
Dale Aston
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RE: Anyone interested in trying Windows 7 2009/05/11 22:43:06 (permalink)
I've installed Windows 7 RC 64-bit and it seems to run very good on my Dell XPS410 (3 yrs old).
post edited by Dale Aston - 2009/05/11 22:53:07
#55
RWAbacus
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RE: Anyone interested in trying Windows 7 2009/05/11 22:57:33 (permalink)
Eagerly installed W7 64-bit RC last week. Tried UPGRADE from VISTA Ultimate (64-bit) - install took > 2 hours (on a fast machine with 8GB RAM), install seemed OK until last step where the user interface is shown - got black screen (with Windows 7, Evaluation copy, Build 7100) in the lower right-hand side. EXPLORER.EXE would not load, so there was NO start button, NO icons, No task bar, etc. It did work under 'SAFE MODE.' But you can't run your computer forever in SAFE MODE. Tried everything. There are a few instances of this problem in MS forums - but no solution.

So ... after a day of hitting my head against a concrete wall, I did a CLEAN INSTALL ... and lost - you guessed it - many programs - not the least of which was SONAR 7 (64-bit) that was working so well under VISTA Ultimate 64-bit.

Seizing the 'opportunity,' I upgraded to SONAR 8. I just installed it and ran it. I got an immediate BLUE SCREEN (BSOD). Subsequently installed SONAR 8.3.1 update (following advice of 'kb20090219.' I installed the "Software Update" first and then the "Content Revision B Update" next. Ran SONAR again - same BSOD. Tried several times - same result.

So - have to go to bed in a sour mood. I did install almost all of my older software on the Clean W7 install - and that went remarkably well (Photoshop, STEAM games, Office 2007, Premiere Pro, NERO, etc. ) There were no problems with those.

I installed Sonar 8 producer - 64-bit in W7 (64-bit) and I can't get anywhere!

What a miserable week it's been. I guess you're supposed to be a technical wizard to solve these kinds of problems - and, honestly, I really don't know how to proceed. As I said, I'm off to bed.

Later!
Josh
#56
John
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RE: Anyone interested in trying Windows 7 2009/05/11 23:09:13 (permalink)
There are some benefts to moving to Windows 7 32 bit from Vista 32 bit

Most notably is the graphics driver optimisation which saves RAM and will raise your max Sonar project size.

We have a couple of projects that we cannot add more synths on XP because Sonar runs out of memory. On Windows 7 there seems to be an extra 100Mb of headroom.
That is because of Areo and its in Vista. I did a thread that has a lot of info on it. Here is the thread.

Most of the major things in Windows 7 are already in Vista as far as performance and OS protection as well as modernizations are concerned. Think about this, it took over 6 years to get Vista out and here we have Windows 7 in less then 4 years. The bulk of the work was already done in Vista in those 6 years. Windows 7 will inherit all that MS learned plus the machines are better equipped to handle it. That was not the case when Vista came out.


Best
John
#57
John
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RE: Anyone interested in trying Windows 7 2009/05/11 23:21:35 (permalink)
Josh make sure you have the latest graphics drivers for your graphics card. One thing though the Windows 7 RC is not the final product nor is it meant to be used as a prime OS for your critical use. Sonar is in that category. You should not have overwritten your Vista install. A new HD and a clean install of Win 7 is more appropriate. Its simply an evaluation copy of what the final OS will be like. It is not the OS to use for day to day use or important projects. Just because some here have seemed to have done that does mean you should have. They may have a dual boot system or more then one machine. To put it bluntly Windows 7 is still a beta in may ways. MS is being smart in letting the public try it before it is fully released. They are not doing this for altruistic reasons but to tighten up the OS before they do offer it as a fully functional OS.

Best
John
#58
jamescater
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RE: Anyone interested in trying Windows 7 2009/05/11 23:28:23 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: John

There are some benefts to moving to Windows 7 32 bit from Vista 32 bit

Most notably is the graphics driver optimisation which saves RAM and will raise your max Sonar project size.

We have a couple of projects that we cannot add more synths on XP because Sonar runs out of memory. On Windows 7 there seems to be an extra 100Mb of headroom.
That is because of Areo and its in Vista. I did a thread that has a lot of info on it. Here is the thread.

Most of the major things in Windows 7 are already in Vista as far as performance and OS protection as well as modernizations are concerned. Think about this, it took over 6 years to get Vista out and here we have Windows 7 in less then 4 years. The bulk of the work was already done in Vista in those 6 years. Windows 7 will inherit all that MS learned plus the machines are better equipped to handle it. That was not the case when Vista came out.





The graphics memory fix is only in the WDDM 1.1 drivers which are Windows 7 only.

There is an interesting article here that demonstrates the changes. See figure 8 half way down the page...

http://blogs.msdn.com/e7/archive/2009/04/25/engineering-windows-7-for-graphics-performance.aspx


The Application programming interfaces (API's) are not affected by this change and the new Direct X 11 API will run on Both OS versions.
However the underlying drivers have been slightly optimised for Win 7.
I don't believe there are any plans to port the WDDM 1.1 driver changes back to Vista. (I could be wrong on this one)

#59
Fog
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RE: Anyone interested in trying Windows 7 2009/05/11 23:44:54 (permalink)
can't even download it.. times out for me.lol

ah well maybe it wasn't meant to be.
#60
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