Danny Danzi
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Re: Anyone using a phase switch on guitar?
2015/04/13 14:42:03
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I always had a hard time using the phase switch on my guitars. You need just the right tone in my opinion to make it work. For some reason, it just always works on a strat! LOL! Other guitars....I seem to struggle with it. My Carvin DC 400's come with everything. Push pull Active/passive, single coil tap, phase switch. The phased position only sounds good in certain situations on certain tones. It really comes to life in a good way with new strings. It's not something I use often, but it has its place. :) -Danny
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batsbrew
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Re: Anyone using a phase switch on guitar?
2015/04/13 15:08:56
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my '84 carvin dc200K: when i used to gig full time, this was my main axe. the combination of single/double coil switches, AND phase switch on bridge, gave me a multitude of combinations, all of which i used. i used to wonder why every guitar manufacturer didn't provide these kinds of options. with just ONE guitar, i could cover almost any tone and style of music. i then built a custom guitar, based on the brian may style of build: the cherry burst strat is a true hybrid, built like a chambered les paul, shaped like a strat, it has an explorer headstock, and is a 24" scale length (ala jaguar, mustang or Brian May's red special) at first, i had an EMG SA assembly in it, and the switches were simple off/on switches for each pickup. when they are all on, they are in series, not parallel. i've thought about adding changing these into phase switches (in and out) and using the 3rd knob on the guitar as a 'switcher' ala the old paul reed smith switching, and wiring this exactly like the May red special.
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Grem
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Re: Anyone using a phase switch on guitar?
2015/04/14 00:05:00
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Is that Koa on the DC200?
My G&L Legacy has a push/pull on the volume that does something to the pups in the 3-5 switch settings.
And my DC400 has all the switches like Danny's. And I also gigged with the DC400 and got all the sounds I needed. After gigging with a LP for so many years I often wondered why anyone would want that many switches. But after using the DC400, well I knew then.
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batsbrew
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Re: Anyone using a phase switch on guitar?
2015/04/14 15:06:37
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Grem Is that Koa on the DC200?
yes, solid koa body is two piece bookmatched, neck is one single piece. love that guitar
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Grem
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Re: Anyone using a phase switch on guitar?
2015/04/15 19:56:30
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batsbrew love that guitar
I almost sent my DC400 back when I first got it. Wasn't use to it after playing a LP for over ? so many years. But I gave it a chance. Man I am SOOOO glad I didn't send it back. It's one of the best guitars I own today. Yep I love mine too!
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mettelus
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Re: Anyone using a phase switch on guitar?
2015/04/15 23:12:08
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Welp, now I am thoroughly confused! Push/pull came a day early, so I put it in tonight. Thinking that the phase switch would be a novelty item, I wired it so that in is in-phase. Finish up, tune it and jack it into my Carvin amp to check all the connections. Carvin is set at a generic 7-5-7 on the pots with a presence of 5. In-phase, all connections check (good since I already put the back plate on), then pull out the phase knob... high treble output and LOUDER... Initial "WTF" reaction... so run back through the other switches. The phase switch is only on the neck, so is easy to simply switch the neck/bridge switches to bring them on or offline together or solo either. I got the same effect with all switch settings... treble much more pronounced (expected), but gain increase (not expected). I still need to record this to verify, but now the in-phase seems "muddy as hell" to me, and I am baffled by this. Any ideas as to why this would be? (The pups are a generic DiMarzio D-Activator Bridge/Neck pair). Edit: I figured I better test this in detail tonight or change the title to "I discovered cold fusion!" Bottom line is my amp was having a field day with the 2-3K range on those settings, so the signal was not louder. Messing around with clean guitar jacked into my Saffire and using Ozone Insight, the average difference for OOP was -3dB, but for full chords (with both humbuckers' coils in series) there is no power loss, it is simply shifted. I am not sure if I did a wiring fluke here, but the delta for that is minimal. I need to test this further as a few configurations saw a 6+ dB drop, so need to get a feel for what is what, but I was expecting more of a drop.
post edited by mettelus - 2015/04/16 00:19:56
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BobF
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Re: Anyone using a phase switch on guitar?
2015/04/16 08:08:38
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Bob -- Angels are crying because truth has died ...Illegitimi non carborundum --Studio One Pro / i7-6700@3.80GHZ, 32GB Win 10 Pro x64 Roland FA06, LX61+, Fishman Tripleplay, FaderPort, US-16x08 + ARC2.5/Event PS8s Waves Gold/IKM Max/Nomad Factory IS3/K11U
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mettelus
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Re: Anyone using a phase switch on guitar?
2015/04/16 08:21:08
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The wiring is no issue, the only thing I installed last night was a phase switch on the neck pickup. I expected a more pronounced drop in output, but never had a phase switch before.
I guess I am more curious what a "typical" out of phase level is now. I actually sent a question to DiMarzio about this this morning as well.
BTW, thanks for the push/pull suggestion! The only two I have in any gear are on my amp.
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BobF
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Re: Anyone using a phase switch on guitar?
2015/04/16 09:03:04
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OK, I guess I skimmed too lightly over the above Everything is subjective without measurement, but ... when I go out of phase there is what I consider a significant drop in the output level, but not enough to call dramatic ... lol
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mettelus
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Re: Anyone using a phase switch on guitar?
2015/04/16 11:03:37
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Exactly, this is all new to me and much is gear dependent too. The part I neglected to think about when I first tested with the amp is the "bright" knob... it is like a 6dB gain to the sweet spot when out of phase. I got to play with it more on the amp this morning and found some nice "bread and butter" settings that keep the volumes evenly matched. The bright knob is a bit excessive now, but this is like being a kid in a candy store. I could never get the tone right for "Bad to the Bone" and now it is a simple phase switch.
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mettelus
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Re: Anyone using a phase switch on guitar?
2015/04/16 14:10:38
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Well, DiMarzio's reply was that due to the space between pickups and positions beneath the strings that it is impossible to get true phase cancelation (got back the obvious without addressing the "why so little loss" or "what is expected loss")... So I guess a freak act of "dumb luck" happened last night. Definitely not going to complain about this one, but pretty much guaranteed I can never rewire this ever again.
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Danny Danzi
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Re: Anyone using a phase switch on guitar?
2015/04/16 17:37:22
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Grem Is that Koa on the DC200?
My G&L Legacy has a push/pull on the volume that does something to the pups in the 3-5 switch settings.
And my DC400 has all the switches like Danny's. And I also gigged with the DC400 and got all the sounds I needed. After gigging with a LP for so many years I often wondered why anyone would want that many switches. But after using the DC400, well I knew then.
I'm so with you there. My DC400 does everything you could ever want from one guitar. I have 3 of them currently and play them more than any of the others that I have in my collection....and I got quite a guitar collection! The pricey Les Pauls and vintage strats just don't move me. Nice to have, cool for some things...they just don't move me like the Carvins do. Hey...whatever it takes to get the job done is what I use. :) This is my latest one:
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mettelus
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Re: Anyone using a phase switch on guitar?
2015/04/21 10:06:42
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I have been doing some evaluations on this new switch and did a gif of SPAN analyzing a simple run of G(full), Cadd9, D twice (6 chords total). The green is in phase and the red is out of phase - orange is common ground for the two. Setup for this was both pickups both wired in series, and in series with each other, which gives the least signal loss between the two (roughly 2-3dB raw). Clean recording, no FX or DI, straight into my Saffire. This is a nice "look see" for those who have never used a phase switch. (The second Cadd9/D I dug into a little deep on the out of phase track). I normalized these curves, but since I hit the second Cadd9 a little harder, it only brought the out of phase track up by 1.4 dB... that particular hit is pretty much "apples to apples." In the gif below, the in-phase is the LEFT channel, and the out-of-phase is the RIGHT... (can see the variation at the lower right in the video). Edit: This was why I sent the email to DiMarzio, since it doesn't "make sense" for the OOP being constructive on the higher frequencies. I am not seeing as much of a gain reduction as I am a power distribution shift. I am also getting harmonics out of phase that did not even register in phase.
post edited by mettelus - 2015/04/22 05:06:40
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Grem
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Re: Anyone using a phase switch on guitar?
2015/04/21 10:35:40
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Danny Danzi This is my latest one:
Really nice matching job on that one. Looks great!!
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mettelus
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Re: Anyone using a phase switch on guitar?
2015/04/22 15:09:58
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I emailed DiMarzio again and linked the above post for them. This is the reply I received: "My understanding of the theory of constructive interference is that the combination of the signals should result in a combined signal with greater amplitude. That does not appear to be what you are getting, but a guitar is not an ideal test bed, and I assume other factors are present. It may also be worth mentioning that (as per my previous note that two pickups are never completely out of phase) some frequencies may be reinforced rather than diminished, and this may contribute to the results you obtained. I don’t know if what you encountered is an anomaly. At the very least, it’s an interesting exception to the usual performance to be expected from a phase switch. DiMarzio Inc." So I walk away from this realizing I am not qualified to speak to a phase switch's results (the one I have is atypical), but more than happy with the "anomaly" I have created.
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Grem
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Re: Anyone using a phase switch on guitar?
2015/04/22 15:20:53
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Just consider yourself a "Lucky Genius" and have created a new form of "Tone"! They will be writing about you in years to come when old timers get together and speak of that elusive, and hard to mimic "Mettelus Tone!" : )
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mettelus
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Re: Anyone using a phase switch on guitar?
2015/04/22 22:35:12
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LOL... the tone part was dumb luck. The rest would require me to track more and screw around less
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mettelus
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Re: Anyone using a phase switch on guitar?
2015/05/01 00:14:17
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Just a quick comment to close the loop on this thread. The guy who PLEK'd my guitar dropped a nice piece of advice to anyone interested in these wiring schemes (and are okay to drill more holes), which was "If you ever modify another guitar, you may want to consider a push/push for the phase switch, since you can activate that with the heel of your hand and not have to deal with pulling out a knob."
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Re: Anyone using a phase switch on guitar?
2015/05/01 10:33:28
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I asked the question about the push/push toggle. The guitar repair dude said he stopped using push/push switches when one on his guitar broke and the spring shot the top across the stage.
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mettelus
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Re: Anyone using a phase switch on guitar?
2015/05/01 11:06:11
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I can see that happening. I am not overly keen on the appearance of them (on a guitar anyway). I also didn't wanted to drill the crap out of the guitar (some of the images on this page made my skin crawl). The push/pull is a bit slower, but because the phase is only "online" when both pickups are online I figured out the most versatility for my setup with the least number of switch changes. Having 7 switches gives 72 possible combinations, but is impossible to really use them all. These pickup are incredibly sensitive, so any cut coil usage got nixed long ago (so dropped it to 20). For my setup, I leave the neck humbucker wired parallel, and the bridge wired series. Leaving the phase switch out-of-phase gives the most tonal dynamics. Then I just use the humbucker selectors to shift around (bridge, neck, bridge/neck-series, bridge/neck-parallel). When is only the bridge or neck, the phase switch is N/A, and the parallel wired neck is a bit more mellow. The parallel neck also takes the "sting" out of the out-of-phase in the bridge/neck-series (but good for leads), and inserts a slight timbre shift with bridge/neck-parallel. This knocks the switch configuration down to only 4 positions without gain changes (although I do push/pull that pot since I am still getting used to it).
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