Helpful ReplyApart from you and me: Does the industry take CBB seriously and have they moved on

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BenMMusTech
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Re: Apart from you and me: Does the industry take CBB seriously and have they moved on 2018/08/02 23:16:36 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby iRelevant 2018/08/09 01:43:39
What everyone is missing, is all software has hit a maturity point in this particular cycle of technology. As I've mentioned - there is no money in software anymore. Crapple, not only helped put the final nails in the coffin of the music industry (Pete Townsend famously called Crapple a digital vampire, and not even The Beatle's could force Crapple out of the music industry - copyright), but Crapple also brought about the current situation of software no longer being profitable. The 3 dollar app.

For the most part...and I've said this before too, Sonar works very well. It's only when you start using crap 3rd party plugs, or older bits of interface technology does Sonar have a fit. Certain Windows configurations and hardware too.

It's an interesting time, we're on the cusp of the next big push technologically. The PC, Mac included is not going to change that much more - it's the same as software...the PC is a mature product. Almost 20 years ago...we still played through the nose for DVD burners and 100 gig spindle hard drives that we're unreliable...Maxator anyone? It's the interface where the next big push will come from. What we need to think about in reference to Sonar, because support and capability isn't really an issue...yet, but what we need to start organising is how we keep legacy products running into the future. All the major DAW makers need to address this, because no one still gets it, that depending on how you use said software - a DAW like Sonar is now an instrument. For me...I don't want to lose my stradivarius...and nor do I want to learn to use another stradivarius. I still have my Fender acoustic guitar, that I brought for 500 bucks in 1991, I painted it and this seems to have deepened the sound and protected the guitar from aging. I also have my Yamaha electric, which I brought in 2000...it needs to be rewired...but it too is still a great guitar. Humbuckers. I'm a one instrument kind of guy.

Benjamin Phillips-Bachelor of Creative Technology (Sound and Audio Production), (Hons) Sonic Arts, MMusTech (Master of Music Technology), M.Phil (Fine Art)
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#31
Starise
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Re: Apart from you and me: Does the industry take CBB seriously and have they moved on 2018/08/03 00:38:39 (permalink)
I never had an issue with the name of the software. Never even gave that a second thought. I did look up the term "cakewalk" once.
The so called "industry" is probably 99% mirage if you see it as this giant that makes the decisions on what's in and whats not. What's in is what we say is in since we buy their stuff. Larger studios are dwindling. You can make cinematic movie tracks in a bedroom.
 
If you want Cakewalk to suddenly be embraced with love by everyone who records I hate to disappoint. The daw competition disdains a free daw. I believe Cakewalk will be more in the limelight because of the recent direction Meng is taking. It might even get to be something like the Mac when it first came out. The thing everyone is using, and that's not a bad thing.
Maybe it will get to the point where hardware makers will come looking for Meng so they can get their hardware working with CbB. In the interim I hear that there is already a functional low priced interface marketed by Bandlab.
 
When I heard you were using a Yamaha Montage I knew where this was going. They probably have excellent support for Cubase for obvious reasons. FWIW Cakewalk has more synth hardware interface functionality than most. Try sending sysex in Studio One. Things might have changed but midi hasn't changed. Doesn't the montage have a software program that manages and calls up presets? 
 
Audiocon you are a smart guy. You could probablr write an interface for the Montage to CbB. I'm not that detailed when I record my hardware. I send CbB a midi channel and an audio channel. Then I write the synth setting in the channel notes. Works fine on smaller projects.

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#32
ampfixer
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Re: Apart from you and me: Does the industry take CBB seriously and have they moved on 2018/08/03 00:47:52 (permalink)
My Cakewalk usage has shrunk by about 80%. I have moved on, but not completely away. I drop in occasionally to see if the boffins have come up with a new feature I have to have. I have hope but certainly no expectations and I feel that's fair to me a and Cakewalk. The only software I've ever seen in a studio is PRo Tools and Logic so I've no idea if the big boys are any more or less enthused by Cakewalk.

Regards, John 
 I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps.
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#33
abacab
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Re: Apart from you and me: Does the industry take CBB seriously and have they moved on 2018/08/03 01:43:39 (permalink)
I really dont't care what people think about the DAW that I use. 
 
What I do care about is the support from 3rd party hardware and plugin vendors.  That matters! 
 
And community support counts, as well as educational and tutorial resources.  Some products seem to have extensive viral media coverage in this regard, in comparison to the competition...

DAW: CbB; Sonar Platinum, and others ... 
#34
35mm
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Re: Apart from you and me: Does the industry take CBB seriously and have they moved on 2018/08/03 01:57:20 (permalink)
It's been this way since I started using Cakewalk and the reason why I went with Cakewalk in the first place was that it seemed like a bit of an underdog and I like underdogs! A hardware manufacturer or software developer will aim its products at the most popular markets. If a product needs special development in order to support different DAWs, they will start by developing for the market leaders which are traditionally Cubase, Logic, Protools et al. Cakewalk simply doesn't have the market share for some manufacturers to want to support it. That may all change in the future though if Cake grows in popularity by being free.

Splat, Win 10 64bit and all sorts of musical odds and sods collected over the years, but still missing a lot of my old analogue stuff I sold off years ago.
#35
noynekker
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Re: Apart from you and me: Does the industry take CBB seriously and have they moved on 2018/08/03 02:48:31 (permalink)
35mm
It's been this way since I started using Cakewalk and the reason why I went with Cakewalk in the first place was that it seemed like a bit of an underdog and I like underdogs! A hardware manufacturer or software developer will aim its products at the most popular markets. If a product needs special development in order to support different DAWs, they will start by developing for the market leaders which are traditionally Cubase, Logic, Protools et al. Cakewalk simply doesn't have the market share for some manufacturers to want to support it. That may all change in the future though if Cake grows in popularity by being free.


Not sure I agree with a marketing theory that assumes "FREE" will gain a bigger market share.
It could go either way, depending how the market reacts. If there is no effective marketing, then it will not get noticed. If people flock to it because it's free, it's not a sustainable business plan. More time must pass to see how it all turns out.
 
Those market leaders you mention have many of the same features as Cakewalk by BandLab . . . they've all been slugging it out for a few decades. The bottom line is which DAW enables you to create the type of music you prefer, easiest.
 
So. since Cakewalk continues to do that, I'll keep using it. However, we've yet to see the "new" Cakewalk come along with any groundbreaking new features. (Yes, I'd just like to see something bigger to gain confidence in the future of this program) We know Noel and the bakers are certainly capable of keeping it moving forward, but can they keep pace with the well funded, and larger user base other DAWS ? . . . this remains to be seen.

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#36
Euthymia
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Re: Apart from you and me: Does the industry take CBB seriously and have they moved on 2018/08/03 08:22:10 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Resonant Serpent 2018/08/03 20:08:11
The fact that you had to make up a story rather than take one from actual history speaks volumes.
 
In real life, all of those companies you mentioned are thriving. And could never give their products away for free because there is so much cost in materials and labor to produce each individual unit.
 
This is unlike with downloadable computer software, where the cost of goods for an individual unit (not development, which in this case was overwhelmingly paid for in one payment) is in server space, bandwidth, maintaining a user database, etc.
 
How about we examine the examples of Netscape, Opera, Chrome, Firebird, and Internet Explorer? I don't know if you consider it cheating to use a real life example instead of making one up, but it's all I got. I was a business major at university and they encouraged us to do that. Hard habit to break.
 
20 years ago Netscape owned the marketplace, the company was the biggest software IPO in history to that point. Its browser was a commercial product, regarded as the industry standard, untouchable, kind of the Pro Tools of its time.
 
Microsoft, a well-funded company (as is Meng's), came along and bought up the slightly out-of-date Mosaic and started giving it away for free as Internet Explorer. It was not well-regarded at first, but Microsoft persisted and threw better and better engineering talent at the project.
 
Other browser companies jumped in like Opera, also a payware browser, but much cheaper and less bloated than Netscape had become.
 
Google became a powerhouse, a company based on giving away all of their services to the consumer for FREE, including their browser, Chrome. They make their enormous fortune by upsells and selling to businesses services that their employees learned to use as individual consumers. People don't need to be trained to use GMail or Google Docs or any of that because most of the time they have already been using them. Because they became the industry standard by giving them away for free to consumers!
 
Fast forward 20 years to now. Chrome, rooted in the freeware world, has almost 2/3 of the market. Internet Explorer and Netscape (now evolved into Firefox, long since freeware) are still around with about 1/10th of the market each, and a plethora of others, with Opera still around (now free), Edge, a new (free) one from Microsoft, and many others, many of them using code from Chrome, which allows its code to be used for free.
 
And that godawful name! GOOGLE Chrome? "Google" sounds like something that would come out of the mouth of a toddler.
 
It beat out "Opera," "Firebird," and "Explorer," though. I guess squeamish people can just call it "Chrome."
 
Consumering Lesson #0: This is not your father's software industry. Upsells and in-app purchases rule. Kick back, enjoy the free stuff, let the people do what they do. We don't need to understand it any more than a client needs to understand everything that we do when we engineer their project. Don't build your entire studio on a skillset with one DAW. Everything goes away. Everything changes. Also, as long as the name trips off the tongue, you're good to go. It will take on its own meaning
 
Guys, no matter how much it pisses you off that people like me now get your expensive tool for free, the new owner is never going to start charging us for The DAW Formerly Known As SONAR that you paid so much for. The new licensing model is in place, the bird has flown. We are already seeing the value in not needing to justify selling licensing fees by stuffing in flashy new features at the expense of bug hammering. The thing was a crash monster 4 months ago and is now a rock.
 
Your licensing fees created a GREAT DAW and new users like me are in your debt. Now you and I and tons of other people get a new, better product without the fees, you get to keep what I understand are some killer plug-ins that none of the rest of us is even able to buy yet.
 
Also, no matter how much the name may embarrass you, "Cakewalk" has 30 years of recognition behind it. Meng's company bought the Harmony guitars brand so my guess is that he understands the value of a brand's strength.
 
I propose that for all of you who think "Cakewalk" sounds too lame, how about you call it 'Walk. Like Strat or Tele? "I'm gonna go into the studio and lay down some badass tracks in 'Walk.'" Or "Cake." Do you remember when it was cool to call money "bread?"
 
Keano66
There were once three cars: A Ferrari, A Porsche and a Rolls Royce. They were all good cars. People paid money to buy these cars - they were so good. It was hard to tell which was the best, as they all had merits. Some said the Ferrari was the fastest, some said the Porsche was the more stylish and others said the Rolls Royce was the more elegant. They were all good and the people valued them equally and exchanged money for them.

And then, inexplicably, the Rolls Royce makers said to a stunned market, that everyone could have a Rolls Royce for free. What? The people who didn't own the Rolls Royce proclaimed that "this must be proof that the Rolls Royce must have been a defective car to begin with, for if they are giving the car away for free, it must mean that it is inferior".

Marketing lesson No.1: Have faith in your own product because if you don't, then nobody else will.

And change the bloody name. Cakewalk? Embarrasing. Give it a name that reflects how utterly great this software really is. Make it sound special. Make people WANT to desire it.


-Erik
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#37
bdickens
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Re: Apart from you and me: Does the industry take CBB seriously and have they moved on 2018/08/03 12:42:11 (permalink)
bitflipper

I wonder what word processor Tom Clancy used. Surely, if I wanted to be a successful fiction writer I'd need to know that!
 
 
 



Exactly. It's the guitarist, not the guitar.

Byron Dickens
#38
AT
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Re: Apart from you and me: Does the industry take CBB seriously and have they moved on 2018/08/03 13:47:52 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Starise 2018/08/03 21:08:14
There are 3 main DAWs - Protools, which has AVID and thus a company that owns the major audio and video editing software.  They will really have to screw things up to lose their position.  Live!, which, captured the "DJ" performance market for, not surprisingly Live performance (it is in the name).  Finally their is Cubase, which works well on both OSs and is owned by a large and successful megacompany that makes physical things, not software.  And a lot of music hardware, not just motorcycles, with which they can introduce and capture large swaths of home musicians.
 
When I was first deciding which PC DAW to go with years ago, there was Logic, Steinberg and Cakewalk.  Cake was the first one to incorporate Loops naturally, so I went with it.  And I don't regret it.  Today their are far more choices, which means a middling-sized company like Cakewalk was squeezed by both the majors and the new, minor players which were small with a small staff that didn't require much overhead (Reaper was a one man job).  Bitwig, hardware company Presonus, Mixcraft all had these advantages over Cakewalk, which couldn't take advantage of Roland's hardware distribution since they never developed for the Mac.  If I was Roland I'd be pissed too that not only did I buy a DAW but had to license another one for my Mac company.  But they knew that going in.  I guess a program to turn PC code to mac code didn't quite work.
 
There is just too much small competition in the PC market for a mid-sized company with all the associated overhead to make it on its own.  If there is a hardware stream to suckle off a large DAW can work, or a small company off revenues.  But I think Bandlab is on the right track with a small-sized company they can afford to carry long enough to make it work.  Ideally, they want a lot of people using their free DAW and free social site, with enough users to pay for major software development.  In the meanwhile, enjoy one of the best DAWs out there for literally nothing, with nice clean up programming on a monthly basis, and hope Bandlab reaches liftoff.
#39
jpetersen
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Re: Apart from you and me: Does the industry take CBB seriously and have they moved on 2018/08/03 14:17:41 (permalink)
I don't think Yamaha is a good reference. given they sell Cubase.
I have a Yamaha ES Rack.
The firewire multitrack interface is only supported in Cubase.
 
As long as CbB supports the usual standards there will be enough compatible plugins to keep us amused.
#40
jpetersen
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Re: Apart from you and me: Does the industry take CBB seriously and have they moved on 2018/08/03 14:27:02 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby iRelevant 2018/08/09 01:55:46
bdickens
Exactly. It's the guitarist, not the guitar.

Three young gents came into my friend's music shop with a guitar to trade in for a new Fender.
 
My friend, who is an excellent guitarist, looked it over for possible damage - then plugged it into an amp and began to play.
 
As he played, the eyes of the three gents got bigger and bigger.
 
After my friend's last double-handed hammer-ons came to a wailing, dramatic stop, he asked:
 
"The guitar's in good order. So which Fender did you want to trade it in for?"
 
The leader of the group said, "Ah. No, it's OK, we don't want a new guitar. We changed our minds".
 
The guitar was obviously not the problem.
#41
bitflipper
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Re: Apart from you and me: Does the industry take CBB seriously and have they moved on 2018/08/03 15:15:26 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk] 2018/08/03 21:56:36
Great post by Euthymia.
 
I'd already been in the biz for 10 years when I first saw Mosaic, but I dismissed it at the time, thinking it was just a BBS for eggheads. I'd similarly dismissed Windows 2.0, because it couldn't run existing software. I remember seeing my first Mac, which a customer was excitedly showing off, and thinking "grade schools will love this, but it'll never have a place on corporate desks". When the first smartphones came along, they struck me as gimmicky toys trying to do many things, but none of them well ("no way that'll replace my digital camera").
 
When I started using RISC-based and massively parallel and distributed systems, with their potential for cool stuff such as real-time animation, I thought "now, there's the future!". My Sun Sparcstation was way ahead of anything Intel, Apple or Microsoft were up to at the time. I was looking forward to everyone having something like that in their homes. You could even record and edit high-fidelity audio on it. 
 
My point is that my own informed prescience doesn't have a great track record. It's just not always possible to evaluate new approaches within the framework of the current paradigm. Too many assumptions about what works and what doesn't, based on what's working today.
 
Heck, I thought Rap and Disco were passing fads. I was, however, spot on when I predicted the demise of parachute pants and leg warmers.




All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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#42
Audioicon
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Re: Apart from you and me: Does the industry take CBB seriously and have they moved on 2018/08/03 15:27:42 (permalink)
jpetersen
bdickens
Exactly. It's the guitarist, not the guitar.

Three young gents came into my friend's music shop with a guitar to trade in for a new Fender.
 
My friend, who is an excellent guitarist, looked it over for possible damage - then plugged it into an amp and began to play.
 
As he played, the eyes of the three gents got bigger and bigger.
 
After my friend's last double-handed hammer-ons came to a wailing, dramatic stop, he asked:
 
"The guitar's in good order. So which Fender did you want to trade it in for?"
 
The leader of the group said, "Ah. No, it's OK, we don't want a new guitar. We changed our minds".
 
The guitar was obviously not the problem.



You guys are turning this Post/Thread something completely different.
What does anything being discussed here talk about Sonar as a problem?

People want to see movement and trajectory of a product, which has nothing to do with the current state of the product.

Sure, horses can take you many places and the landline phones are perfect, they are never the problem and I am sure you prefer them over cellphones. May I assume you don't have a mobile phone because the Phone booth works? 

It is about ideas and innovation and movement, sure I can use Windows XP and Tape Machines but how does that break in the profits of where the industry is?



Checkout my new song: Playing on YouTube: EUPHORIA.
#43
Audioicon
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Re: Apart from you and me: Does the industry take CBB seriously and have they moved on 2018/08/03 15:30:52 (permalink)
Euthymia
Microsoft, a well-funded company (as is Meng's), came along and bought up the slightly out-of-date Mosaic and started giving it away for free as Internet Explorer.



Can you please explain to me where Microsoft gave away Internet Explorer for Free?
When did this happen?

Checkout my new song: Playing on YouTube: EUPHORIA.
#44
tlw
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Re: Apart from you and me: Does the industry take CBB seriously and have they moved on 2018/08/03 16:51:08 (permalink)
Audioicon
Can you please explain to me where Microsoft gave away Internet Explorer for Free?
When did this happen?


Back in the mists of time Windows did not come with a web browser. Not only that, Windows had no built-in support for TCP/IP either, the provided networking being MS-only protocols (NetBEUI).

When MS decided they really ought to provide their own browser - for the Windows platform only, and with various “features” that were non-internet standard*, they made IE available as a free download for existing Windows license holders and included it in the standard Windows distribution package.

So if you had Windows you got IE with it. Every version update of IE was free. Very similar to the relationship between Safari and OS X/MacOS. Back then Windows, even the flagship “professional version” NT4, had zero copy protection. Which no doubt helped MS gain a dominant position because rather than pay for Windows people borrowed disks from friends or work and copied them.

And when, excluding paid-for Windows updates, did you ever pay for an update to IE?

*There is good evidence that some of IE’s quirks and non-standard behaviour were deliberate - MS strategy in the mid-90s went from “the internet is a passing fad that we can just ignore and it’ll go away” to “the internet isn’t going away, so how do we absorb it and re-configure it into a proprietary on-line service with MS owning the IP and the software needed to access it?” Outlook Express, a mail client again given away with Windows which broke email stanrads so badly that even MS’ paid-for mail client Outlook couldn’t cope with much of its output was part of the same strategy.

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#45
tlw
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Re: Apart from you and me: Does the industry take CBB seriously and have they moved on 2018/08/03 16:55:23 (permalink)
Euthymia
And that godawful name! GOOGLE Chrome? "Google" sounds like something that would come out of the mouth of a toddler.


Could be worse. It was nearly named “Backrub”.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google#History

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#46
Audioicon
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Re: Apart from you and me: Does the industry take CBB seriously and have they moved on 2018/08/03 17:15:48 (permalink)
tlw
When MS decided they really ought to provide their own browser - for the Windows platform only, and with various “features” that were non-internet standard*, they made IE available as a free download for existing Windows license holders and included it in the standard Windows distribution package.



So reading your passage above, how was or is this free?
If I say to you, "Buy my album and get my previous album free, am I really offering you  a free album?"

My point is, IE was available only on purchase applicable systems, so it is/was not free.

CBB is actually free.

Checkout my new song: Playing on YouTube: EUPHORIA.
#47
slartabartfast
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Re: Apart from you and me: Does the industry take CBB seriously and have they moved on 2018/08/03 19:46:29 (permalink)
Audioicon
 
So reading your passage above, how was or is this free?
If I say to you, "Buy my album and get my previous album free, am I really offering you  a free album?"

My point is, IE was available only on purchase applicable systems, so it is/was not free.

CBB is actually free.




A better analogy might be buy my record player and get a free album. Just because a product requires an OS to run does not make it part of the price you are paying for the OS. Alternatively any product offered as part of a purchase of any other product or service can not be considered free, since its cost can be considered a discount/inducement on the primary purchase. 
 
In Europe Microsoft paid a big price for bundling IE with Windows, and versions of Windows for sale there did not automatically include IE after a finding of anticompetitive practice. You could still download IE for free and run it on your system, but it would not automatically install with Windows. So was IE free in Europe but a paid product in the US?
 
If BandLab has not found a way to monetize the "free" distribution of Cakewalk by BandLab, then I would expect the product will have a short happy life. If they have, then it follows that something about your acceptance of the free product is making them money. You are logically paying something, if only your information and membership in the BandLab subscriber base that can be used to increase advertising or other sources of revenue. This is not to say that there are no truly free products available, where a generous and otherwise self sufficient developer has donated the product and cost of distribution to the world, but making these fine distinctions about free vs paid is beginning to lose meaning in the current commercial climate.
#48
57Gregy
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Re: Apart from you and me: Does the industry take CBB seriously and have they moved on 2018/08/04 02:30:13 (permalink)
A product as powerful as Cakewalk has to be taken seriously by the industry, whether free or not.
Just because support is not mentioned in ads for hardware or software doesn't mean it won't work. In most cases, it probably will. 
I don't expect the major studios to trash their current set-ups and use CbB, though, but they certainly could try it out.
All they have to do is get over the 'it's not Pro-Tools' mindset. 

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#49
Anderton
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Re: Apart from you and me: Does the industry take CBB seriously and have they moved on 2018/08/04 03:30:58 (permalink)
57Gregy
I don't expect the major studios to trash their current set-ups and use CbB, though, but they certainly could try it out.
All they have to do is get over the 'it's not Pro-Tools' mindset. 



And to be fair, their "Apple is God" mindset - which is ironic, given that many people feel Apple has purposely devalued intellectual property so they could sell more hardware.
 
Note that Komplete Kontrol doesn't do full support with Pro Tools, only Cubase/Nuendo, Logic/GarageBand, and Live (of course, most of it works in Sonar, Studio One, Samplitude, etc.). NI is a savvy company that makes more money than most, if not all, DAW companies. Yet they didn't bet on Pro Tools.
 
Logic and Studio One have done more than just chip away at Pro Tools, whose stronghold has traditionally been on the Mac.
 
It's all very up in the air right now. It's uncertain whether Apple's desktops are going to be as fabulous as they claim, which also assumes Microsoft doesn't have some surprise Surfaces up its sleeve. Surface Studio was a wakeup call. If Microsoft gets their hardware act together and doesn't get overly distracted with being a cloud services company, CbB will be in the right place at the right time for Windows users if Noel keeps making the kind of tweaks he's making.
 
 

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#50
booksmusic
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Re: Apart from you and me: Does the industry take CBB seriously and have they moved on 2018/08/04 03:46:44 (permalink)
The current Tape Op magazine (Aug/Sept 2018) has a positive review of CBB by Alan Tubbs.

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#51
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Apart from you and me: Does the industry take CBB seriously and have they moved on 2018/08/04 04:38:03 (permalink)
booksmusic
The current Tape Op magazine (Aug/Sept 2018) has a positive review of CBB by Alan Tubbs.



Thanks - Here is a link to the review.

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#52
LJB
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Re: Apart from you and me: Does the industry take CBB seriously and have they moved on 2018/08/04 04:49:53 (permalink)
I agree it's frustrating - I'd like t see the Slate Raven work with Cakewalk for one. A simple "Please look into Cakewalk Support" or some such comment on their social media pages or support requests will do a lot for creating a demand. If we want them to adopt our DAW, let's simply demand it. 

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#53
SandlinJohn
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Re: Apart from you and me: Does the industry take CBB seriously and have they moved on 2018/08/04 07:11:55 (permalink)
Audioicon
 
Meng:
I have many contacts in Colleges.
Currently some offer courses in Pro-tools, for students these are not cheap.

Is this something you have interest in? I think getting a foot on the industry will requiring attracting those up and coming producers and young population.

I can only imagine if courses were offered on the PC platform using CBB.

Just a thought.

AI



Hi AI.
 
One thing to consider about why schools teach Pro Tools: Pro Tools is highly likely to be the DAW that they use in their Professional Audio Engineering careers. So the schools teach it.
 
BUT!  I think that for the folks not becoming Professional Audio Engineers (where the studio probably pays for the software licenses), like most non-engineer musicians and home studio artists (to also include people like PodCasters and YouTubers), Cakewalk by BandLab is ideal. Not only does it offer equivalent polish and capability to any other DAW, including Pro Tools, it is the best value bar none, and probably every potential education subject can be demonstrated using it (other than "How to Do This In Pro Tools").


Cakewalk by BandLab is professional grade.

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#54
Euthymia
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Re: Apart from you and me: Does the industry take CBB seriously and have they moved on 2018/08/04 14:22:27 (permalink)
Audioicon
Euthymia
Microsoft, a well-funded company (as is Meng's), came along and bought up the slightly out-of-date Mosaic and started giving it away for free as Internet Explorer.

Can you please explain to me where Microsoft gave away Internet Explorer for Free?
When did this happen?



Happy to! I'm very familiar with www and browser history from the time because I was working at Macromedia at the time, right before it acquired a tiny software company that had product called Future Splash that Macromedia renamed Flash and had a bit of success with.
 
As for "where," it was released in the United States at first, and localized for 95 languages,so I'll go with "worldwide," or wherever Windows and Macintosh computers were used....
 
As for "when," beginning in in 1996. The history is readily available at Wikipedia, but I can give you the brief version.
 
IE started as part of the (for pay and heavily pirated) Windows 95 Plus! add-on package for the then-new Windows 95.
 
By late 1996, it was included with Windows NT 4 and with (free to obtain) Windows 95 Service Packs, and, something that nobody here has mentioned, the Mac version had been released and was freely available for download. Up through IE5, last released in July 2001, they had builds for MacOSX, Classic Mac, Solaris, and HP UX. The Last Mac build was in 2003.
 
They still throw in a copy of it in with Windows 10 for compatibility purposes, so to answer your question, I'll call it 1996-2018. If you want to declare that any version of it originally acquired via a purchased license of a Windows OS was "bundled" and not "free," then 1996-2003, but you can still download and run IE5 on your Mac if you want to (and can find a place to download it from).
 
But if you're focusing on the Microsoft Internet Explorer part of my story and attempting to "disprove" something about it by implying that IE wasn't really "free," then you missed the point. IE has only wound up with 10% of the market. I wasn't claiming any kind of huge victory for them, merely offering them as an example of a company that bought up an existing program and started providing it for free, presumably because they thought it would help other existing (or future) areas of their business. I wanted to point out how long that this has been going on.
 
The browser from the company (Google) that has always been giving services and software away for free is crushing everything else in the marketplace and what was once the "Pro Tools" of the browser market (Netscape) long ago became freeware (Firefox).
 
That's an example of free software having a great deal more respect, despite the parent company's silly-sounding name.
 
I'm saying that what our folks are doing with Cakewalk is hardly a strange new thing, not in the software industry.
 
If someone wanted to float a conspiracy theory with some history behind it, they might suggest that BandLab wanted to create a new proprietary audio file format that they could make licensing fees from and they needed to develop a DAW that could render it. That would fit with Microsoft's motivations for giving away their browser. It would be silly, of course, but at least there would be a precedent in the industry.
 
So I'm not going to armchair quarterback where one piece of software is going to fit in the larger marketing picture at this company beyond the obvious one of it being the offline, desktop counterpart to their web-based DAW.
 
Not when there are so many important things I can nag about like when are we seeing the new forum, can we have a trackable bug database that's open to users, can I have a PDF manual, etc.
 
Oh, and stickers. We must have stickers for our notebook computers running the Cakewalk. The older fogies can put them on the door to their control room.

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#55
SandlinJohn
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Re: Apart from you and me: Does the industry take CBB seriously and have they moved on 2018/08/04 16:25:31 (permalink)
Anderton
Note that Komplete Kontrol doesn't do full support with Pro Tools, only Cubase/Nuendo, Logic/GarageBand, and Live (of course, most of it works in Sonar, Studio One, Samplitude, etc.). NI is a savvy company that makes more money than most, if not all, DAW companies. Yet they didn't bet on Pro Tools.

 
Question on that bit: If NI hardware has a decent presence in big studios where Pro Tools is likely installed, wouldn't they need to support it? Or do they not have that presence in the big studios?

Or do you use an emulation with the Komplete Kontrol (like the Mackie Control Surface) when controlling to Pro Tools? That would mean SONAR / Cakewalk by BandLab gets the same respect as Pro Tools from a major hardware vendor.

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#56
tlw
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Re: Apart from you and me: Does the industry take CBB seriously and have they moved on 2018/08/04 16:57:57 (permalink)
SandlinJohn
Question on that bit: If NI hardware has a decent presence in big studios where Pro Tools is likely installed, wouldn't they need to support it? Or do they not have that presence in the big studios?


Studios needing to record - not just mix, but record - maybe 32 to 64 tracks at a time and charge a lot of money an hour might find a keyboard controller or audio interface that can handle 8 channels a bit limiting. The differences in terms of hardware required by small “home” or “project” studios and the large “studio for hire/record company owned” studios is enormous.

Large studios are likely to be using desks made by companies like Harrison, Neve or SSL, or maybe control systems built up out of Avid’s Pro Tools S range. At costs of many thousands of pounds/dollars - maybe like this example - https://www.studiocare.co...8elPdXLmcaAmHVEALw_wcB

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#57
bapu
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Re: Apart from you and me: Does the industry take CBB seriously and have they moved on 2018/08/04 17:29:05 (permalink)
To quote Johnnie Cochran "If the DAW fits, you must use it".
 
WTH does it matter if the whole industry embraces CbB? There are many users here who use it (or SPLAT) to make a living. They too are, albeit a small, part of "the industry".
 
#58
kitekrazy1
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Re: Apart from you and me: Does the industry take CBB seriously and have they moved on 2018/08/04 18:11:57 (permalink)
Anderton
57Gregy
I don't expect the major studios to trash their current set-ups and use CbB, though, but they certainly could try it out.
All they have to do is get over the 'it's not Pro-Tools' mindset. 



And to be fair, their "Apple is God" mindset - which is ironic, given that many people feel Apple has purposely devalued intellectual property so they could sell more hardware.
 
Note that Komplete Kontrol doesn't do full support with Pro Tools, only Cubase/Nuendo, Logic/GarageBand, and Live (of course, most of it works in Sonar, Studio One, Samplitude, etc.). NI is a savvy company that makes more money than most, if not all, DAW companies. Yet they didn't bet on Pro Tools.
 
Logic and Studio One have done more than just chip away at Pro Tools, whose stronghold has traditionally been on the Mac.
 
It's all very up in the air right now. It's uncertain whether Apple's desktops are going to be as fabulous as they claim, which also assumes Microsoft doesn't have some surprise Surfaces up its sleeve. Surface Studio was a wakeup call. If Microsoft gets their hardware act together and doesn't get overly distracted with being a cloud services company, CbB will be in the right place at the right time for Windows users if Noel keeps making the kind of tweaks he's making.
 
 




 The thing is most hardware lasts a long time and past its usefulness. I could get all of my parts out of the closet and run a socket A system and W2000.  There was a guy in the industry who made a video "Why Apple Sucks", and there are studios still running Mac desktops where you can still change the parts in them.
 
 When something like this comes out it creates DIS (Daw Insecurity Syndrome).  Some get really butthurt because their DAW is not mentioned.  One again we see some users who want to change the name of Cakewalk.  It's worse on the Image Line forum.  (one of those DAWs that have never been bought out).  Most of its users aren't going to fork out $3K for a Montage.  Some of the reviews I've read for the Montage refer to using it for live performance instead of hooking it up to a DAW.  Maybe this is Yamaha's attempt to sell more licenses of Cubase.  Consider that Cubase is losing some ground to other DAWs with better upgrade/update policies.
 
 There's plenty of people out there being successful with "inferior" DAWs and don't let something like this bother them.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

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#59
SandlinJohn
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Re: Apart from you and me: Does the industry take CBB seriously and have they moved on 2018/08/04 18:47:03 (permalink)
tlw
Studios needing to record - not just mix, but record - maybe 32 to 64 tracks at a time and charge a lot of money an hour might find a keyboard controller or audio interface that can handle 8 channels a bit limiting. The differences in terms of hardware required by small “home” or “project” studios and the large “studio for hire/record company owned” studios is enormous.

Large studios are likely to be using desks made by companies like Harrison, Neve or SSL, or maybe control systems built up out of Avid’s Pro Tools S range. At costs of many thousands of pounds/dollars - maybe like this example - https://www.studiocare.co...8elPdXLmcaAmHVEALw_wcB



I wasn't thinking they'd be using the Komplete Kontrol to manage the mix. I was thinking the Artist would be playing a VST and managing their performance with the controls knobs, sliders and buttons/pads of the KK. Imagine a keyboardist asking the Audio Engineer to play the Wah-Wah and Modulation (and other) controls while the artist plays their track. A Komplete Kontrol has as much business in a Big Studio as any music instrument.

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#60
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