Starise
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Re:Apparent lack of overall volume on final mix
2011/08/15 10:17:55
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Update- I downloaded the Voxengo plug SPAN. I really like how its working for me. It is very helpful to view the spectrum to get a better idea where changes need to be made. The clips feature is indispensable. I needed some better mastering plugs and ended up with T RackS standard which I might upgrade to Deluxe in the future. It is amazing how the track has improved with just those fixes as I was able to make adjustments in a more directed way based on audio spectral info. I have made some musical changes to the track but its not finished yet. Hopefully I can post it in the near future and you can hear the difference. The whole thing sounds much better now! I would love to have a spectral editor like Adobe Audition. Maybe eventually I will get this, but in the interim a person can do quite a lot with just the information gleaned from the metering in T RackS and SPAN,and effective uses of the plugs. So thanks guys. I know I have gone on and on and on. Hopefully some of this will help others who might read it.
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bitflipper
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Re:Apparent lack of overall volume on final mix
2011/08/15 11:14:18
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☄ Helpful
A tip for you Starise: use the "Master" mode. It is a slower, average display that's better suited for viewing general trends. Sometimes, the real-time display actually confuses the issue by showing too much short-term detail.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Starise
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Re:Apparent lack of overall volume on final mix
2011/08/15 13:27:50
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NovaFire77
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Re:Apparent lack of overall volume on final mix
2011/08/21 18:31:41
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I'm just getting started with mastering myself. Check out this tutorial on Youtube. Very simple, concise video that will start to demystify the process for you. I don't doubt that I have a good few years to really learn how to master well, but watching these lessons really brought me up to speed in regards to getting a final project with a respectable volume level. Check the videos here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_S6s4Sr6YJ0 A great multi-band compressor that you can download for free is T-SLEDGE. I picked it up month or so ago and it has quickly become a staple plug-in in my work flow. A quick Google search should direct you to the site. Part of my mixing process is to put a little compression and EQ on the Master bus (you'll see what I'm talking about when you watch the video). I then get my Master level up to around -4dB to -6dB. Once I have all of that, I export all of the drums on one mix, all of the string instruments on another mix, all of the vocals on yet another mix. I then open up a new session and fly them all in on their own tracks. This is the long way to do it. You can also simply have an instrument track and a vocal track. Once you have all of your stems flown into the new Master session, add another compressor and EQ onto the Master bus. Automate the volume on the vocal track as necessary. Push the Master fader as high as possible without ACTUALLY HEARING any clipping. Disregard what the meter is telling your eyes. Listen with and trust your ears. If the meter says you're clipping, but you don't HEAR any clipping, then you're fine. Once you're satisfied with how all of that sounds, export the whole thing as a final mix. The last thing I like to do is check the mix levels on as many different meters as possible. Fly the mix into Audacity and hit play. If you've done everything right up to this point, you should be maxing out at zero. If your computer has a sound meter, go ahead and check what it's peaking at too. Again, if you've done everything right up this point, you should be peaking at zero. If for some reason the levels still aren't as loud as you'd like them to be, select Effect from the Audacity tool bar and select Compressor. Usually a 2:1 ratio is best, with most of the levels on the other controls turned way down. Remember, you've already done a lot of compressing at this point and you don't want to cause any pumping. Once the compression is applied, you should have a nice big fat wave form, a nice thick sound coming out of your monitors, AND a dynamic range that is distinct in its loudness and softness (snare drum popping, electric guitar screaming, bass guitar thumping). Export as the highest quality mp3 (you can crank up the quality by clicking Options on the Export dialogue window) and you're all set. Now, I'm sure that the way I'm doing all of this isn't the easiest or best way to achieve a master with good volume levels. Just saying that this is what I've done and it's working great for me so far. Cheers, Reid
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re:Apparent lack of overall volume on final mix
2011/08/22 03:02:31
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One thing worth mentioning is keeping the project in 24 or 32 bits till the final export to wav. Also, if you want to compress heavily to create a loud mix, you must start compressing in the tracks already. Having the first compressor in Master Bus is too late. You need to compress in stages, gently, on the way, to get a nice result. Drums need a different compression from that of the vocals etc. The loudness is achieved measuring RMS-levels, not peaks. If the recording peaks at zero, it does not yet mean it sounds loud. Letting the meters go over zero in mixing phase is risky. It easily leads to having to do all over again after hearing the final mix. Are you sure you can hear the clipping? Do you have good monitors? When you mix together a few tracks that are clipping, you'll surely have to lower the levels anyway. In my opinion, and I think it's the consensus here, you should have a high quality version of the song as well. That means exporting as wav-file. You can then convert that to mp3. You do want to have a high quality version of your song - surely?! Also, I don't know the quality of the compressor in Audacity. Maybe there are better ones in SONAR? You don't have to take the project into Audacity for finishing, you can do that all in SONAR as well, if you wish. Aiming at zero is risky business, I think, I'd settle with -0,3 dB or something. A file to be converted to mp3 requires more headroom than wav. If your project is at zero in Audacity, it will most likely clip as mp3 (according to some threads I've read here). And all in all...People don't know what a natural sound is anymore. If they hear a recording with good dynamics, they think it's failed. You can only hear good dynamics in jazz and classical nowadays, well, in folk music, too. To the others "dynamics" is a four-letter-word.
SONAR PE 8.5.3, Asus P5B, 2,4 Ghz Dual Core, 4 Gb RAM, GF 7300, EMU 1820, Bluetube Pre - Kontakt4, Ozone, Addictive Drums, PSP Mixpack2, Melda Creative Pack, Melodyne Plugin etc. The benefit of being a middle aged amateur is the low number of years of frustration ahead of you.
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Starise
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Re:Apparent lack of overall volume on final mix
2011/08/22 09:24:10
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I agree Kalle. I believe it was already covered in the other posts above that to trust only your ears in a digital recording can prove troublesome. I was amazed at the clipping that was happening that I never heard. The result of careful spectral analysis can clean up a recording. Just as a person can't believe everything they see,the same applies to hearing it. I have been tested to have good hearing(this surprises me lol) and it is all too easy to miss the clipping. Yes I totally agree that we really don't know what natural sound is anymore. Almost everything we hear is compressed to the hilt in the digital domain. I am working on another mix right now that is nothing more than piano with dynamics and vocals with a few pads thrown in. Believe it or not,that mix is a challenge. I finally got the mix under control at around -3db. I had to stage compress to achieve that result. The interesting thing is that according to my RMS readings I am still at around -12 db in "perceived loudness". In order to bring the mix up to a more suitable -6 to -8 RMS I need to further treat the mix. One thing that has also helped is laying my monitors on their sides so that the tweeters line up with my ears and since I use ARC, I set it up for several scenarios like door of studio closed,door open etc.
Intel 5820K O.C. 4.4ghz, ASRock Extreme 4 LGA 2011-v3, 16 gig DDR4, , 3 x Samsung SATA III 500gb SSD, 2X 1 Samsung 1tb 7200rpm outboard, Win 10 64bit, Laptop HP Omen i7 16gb 2/sdd with Focusrite interface. CbB, Studio One 4 Pro, Mixcraft 8, Ableton Live 10 www.soundcloud.com/starise Twitter @Rodein
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bitflipper
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Re:Apparent lack of overall volume on final mix
2011/08/22 11:13:57
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You can only hear good dynamics in jazz and classical nowadays, well, in folk music, too. To the others "dynamics" is a four-letter-word. I'm seeing gradually increasing levels of compression in the "pure" genres, too. Yes, even classical music! It's still subtle, but until recently using any compression on digital classical music was considered taboo. Compression levels on folk and bluegrass has been climbing over that past decade, too, and are today comparable to hard rock albums from the 80's and early 90's. One of the images below is from "New Favorite" by Alison Krauss & Union Station, the other is from "Snakes and Arrows" by Rush. Can you guess which is which?
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Dave King
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Re:Apparent lack of overall volume on final mix
2011/08/22 11:17:53
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I would guess thsecon one is the Alison Krauss, but I am probably wrong. Her new album, Paper Airplane has some decent dynamic range on the title song.
Dave King www.davekingmusic.com SONAR X2 Producer 64-Bit StudioCat PC Windows 7 Home Premium, Service Pack 1 Intel Corel i5 3450 CPU @3.10 GHz RAM 8 GB M-Audio Delta 44 M-Audio MidiSport 2x2
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bitflipper
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Re:Apparent lack of overall volume on final mix
2011/08/23 13:05:27
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Actually, the first one is A. Krauss, the second is Rush.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Starise
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Re:Apparent lack of overall volume on final mix
2011/08/24 11:07:39
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Am I looking at the graphic wrong or is there still clipping on those tracks?
Intel 5820K O.C. 4.4ghz, ASRock Extreme 4 LGA 2011-v3, 16 gig DDR4, , 3 x Samsung SATA III 500gb SSD, 2X 1 Samsung 1tb 7200rpm outboard, Win 10 64bit, Laptop HP Omen i7 16gb 2/sdd with Focusrite interface. CbB, Studio One 4 Pro, Mixcraft 8, Ableton Live 10 www.soundcloud.com/starise Twitter @Rodein
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batsbrew
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Re:Apparent lack of overall volume on final mix
2011/08/24 11:27:10
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still clipping! LOL that's the name of the game..... Update- I downloaded the Voxengo plug SPAN. I really like how its working for me. you'll find, that the longer you use something like this, the more dialed in your EAR will become. it's a great learning tool, especially if you cannot afford to custom treat your room, it will help you at least 'learn' your room, and compensate. kinda like the way a lot of pros learned how to mix on the old Yamaha NS-10's! heheh
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jm24
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Re:Apparent lack of overall volume on final mix
2011/09/11 21:57:32
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A bit to the side, but very efficient and effective: I use a MAIN OUT bus that controls the monitoring volume sent to the audio device. The MAIN OUT bus does NOT have "effects." The MAIN OUT bus has MONITORING tools: Voxengo Span, vintage meter, Panipulator. The MASTER MIX bus is the master bus for Sonar's output. The MASTER MIX bus is used for bounces. All final effects are in the bin. This bus is output to the MAIN OUT bus. I have at least two blank tracks, labeled MIX1 and MIX2, in the project template. Before bouncing to tracks, I change the name of the mix tracks (add the date) so the wav file will have a reasonable name. These MIX tracks output to the MAIN OUT. Therefore, no need to bypass the effects/eq, or change the volume setting, of the MASTER MIX bus when listening to a mix track. I then solo the mix track to listen to the mix(s). And because the MAIN OUT bus volume is the same, I can compare, audibly and visually, the mix with original tracks. Per CJ's insight, if the mix does not sound correct, before I do anything else, I use control-z (undo) to remove the mix clip, and the wav file from the disk. This means I have fewer orphaned audio files. When a mix is happy, I copy the mix wave file to a folder in the CD projects folder for CD creation. I use Sony CD Architect. This program reads 32 bit files and applies dither during CD making. This way I do not have to worry about dither until it matters. I do not have to remember, or make note of, which files have been dithered/made to be 16 bits. All mix files 32bit. I seldom use the export function of Sonar, except when directly needing a 16 bit file. J
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jm24
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Re:Apparent lack of overall volume on final mix
2011/09/11 22:07:41
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Not clipping. The tops of the waves have not been "clipped." A limiter has not allowed the actual peak to be heard. And therefore not displayed. The next peak is close to the first and also not heard/seen. The Valley has been raised while the peaks have been "restricted." Almost like mountain top coal mining. Sounds real bad sometimes. Diffictult to hear via MP3 and earbuds. So it really doesn't matter much. Not enough instruction about mixing by routing audio through an iThing and to ear bugs. More realistic. MP3 the only way to roll. j
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jm24
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Re:Apparent lack of overall volume on final mix
2011/09/11 22:08:57
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ALWAYS create a restore point before installing ANY hardware driver.
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montezuma
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Re:Apparent lack of overall volume on final mix
2011/09/24 10:39:59
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whack Dont talk to me about this, only in the last year have I managed to bring my levels up to somewhere near competitive Hey...congratulations are in order!
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