Kamikaze
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jamesg1213
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Re: Are the lines of copyright blurred
2015/03/11 08:54:56
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Not hearing any 'rip off' tbh..it's a similar groove, but there are a thousand tracks like that, and the melody in Gaye's song is completely different (and much stronger IMO). 'Blurred Lines' sounds more like Prince to me. I thought Nona Gaye's reaction outside the court was bizarrely 'emotional', but that's just me, I'm a cynic.
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UbiquitousBubba
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Re: Are the lines of copyright blurred
2015/03/11 09:03:19
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☄ Helpfulby sharke 2015/03/11 10:42:21
It's easy for a jury to see rich people as somehow deserving to be sued. "They've got so much money, they should give it all away to the rest of us." I'm not saying that's what was in the jury's minds, but it is a cultural idea that has been growing for some time. On one hand, we trip over ourselves to fawn all over the latest celebrity and empty our accounts to buy stuff bearing their name. On the other, we deeply resent them for their wealth and we eagerly anticipate their fall from grace. People. There's just no excuse.
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KenB123
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Re: Are the lines of copyright blurred
2015/03/11 12:10:25
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☄ Helpfulby jamesg1213 2015/03/11 14:09:00
I've followed this latest suit for the past week or so. Now I personally could care less whether the Robin Thicke production ever saw the light of day, but as far as I am concerned the Gaye family is just seeking (and apparently got it) some quick cash. The way I view it, even though the two songs have a similar rhythm style, and that song similarity stops at that rhythm groove, they are two distinct songs performed by two distinct performers. Did the Thicke song take any money from Marvin Gaye? Absolutely not. A young audience seeking their own identities and sex symbols bought into the Thicke song. No amount of convincing would make these shoppers buy the M. Gaye tune instead. Totally different generations of performer and audience. Maybe the Gaye family should attemp a re-release of his song. In spite of it being a good song, it won't come near the sales today that the Thicke song generated. I just don' t see the theft that is being indicated today in these recent cases.
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dubdisciple
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Re: Are the lines of copyright blurred
2015/03/11 13:06:14
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My opinion is somewhat colored by the fact that Pharrel/Neptunes have a number of sound alike songs that seem to be somewhat reverse engineered. The producer begins with a cover band playing a sound alike and then play subtle variations just enough to "blur the lines". I have heard dj mixes of the two songs where it is hard to tell which song is which. I think this case has much more teeth than the extortion Tom Petty pulled on Sam Smith, which he even said was likely accidental coincidence. When I heard blurred lines I immediately thought Marvin Gaye and assumed sample. The Sam Smith song did not give me a similar dejavu feeling. Even when i listen now, i hear 4 notes in succession that are common enough that I have no doubt exists in plenty of other songs. The line on intellectual property in general has shifted heavily towards copyright holders in recent decades. In part I believe it is backlash due to the heyday of heavy sampling. Many have the perception that much pop/RnB/hip-hop relies heavily on it (which hasn't been the trend since the 90's). Excessive rulings have made it not worth it for most artists to bother. Occasionally artists with very deep pockets will put out the dough, but it is rare. For previously heavily sampled artists, this means the income from licensing has dried up considerably and thus they jump on anything even close. I think there is a certain irony that going too far in the other direction has resulted in less income.
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Wookiee
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Re: Are the lines of copyright blurred
2015/03/11 13:16:46
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Someone once said "Hey there are only thirteen notes"
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jamesg1213
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Re: Are the lines of copyright blurred
2015/03/11 13:18:49
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Wookiee Someone once said "Hey there are only thirteen notes"
It wasn't Bapu.
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slartabartfast
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Re: Are the lines of copyright blurred
2015/03/11 13:46:21
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The two songs do not sound particularly alike. That said neither song sounds like it is original, or at least the amount of distinctive music in either song is so sparse that either could be said to sound like dozens, if not hundreds, of songs in the genre. Part of the problem with paring the music to a few notes and a lot of beats is that it all begins to sound very similar to ignorant people like me, and other potential jurors. Asking a juror to make a decision like this is probably worse even than asking a judge to do it. The sympathy factor for the children of the poor deceased pop music legend vs the upstart self-promoting neo-wealthy beneficiaries of his legacy, and the conflicting testimony of paid experts, makes this an unsurprising outcome. Certainly there are songs out there that could more easily have been called infringement, but they probably did not rise to the level of reward for the lawyers that this one did. The message for anyone writing a popular song in the current era is that if you think it will be a hit, you are probably better off just trashing it, and setting your lyric to something that is clearly in the public domain like Greensleeves or Beautiful Dreamer. But if that version becomes a big hit you are probably still not home free.
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dubdisciple
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Re: Are the lines of copyright blurred
2015/03/11 14:09:05
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I agree with everything you said, but like i said, the producer's track record does make me question whether this is coincidence.
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craigb
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Re: Are the lines of copyright blurred
2015/03/11 14:14:42
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Wookiee Someone once said "Hey there are only thirteen notes"
13? A Baker's dozen? (See what I did there?)
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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tom1
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Re: Are the lines of copyright blurred
2015/03/11 14:40:04
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No money has changed hands as of now; and who knows how many years this will be in the courts. Huge judgments in many cases are drastically reduced after appeals; but if this verdict sticks it's going to be a very interesting music business. As mentioned in a few posts above 'copying' whether intentional or subconsciously, happens all the time.
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UbiquitousBubba
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Re: Are the lines of copyright blurred
2015/03/11 14:50:54
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☄ Helpfulby craigb 2015/03/11 15:32:39
In other gnus, all blues artists are now guilty of copyright infringement. Lawyers were disappointed to realize that these artists were already bankrupt, so there is no money to collect.
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craigb
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Re: Are the lines of copyright blurred
2015/03/11 15:32:13
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I've always loved how some people try to turn subjective, grey-area subjects into black and white.
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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UbiquitousBubba
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Re: Are the lines of copyright blurred
2015/03/11 15:37:13
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SongCraft
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Re: Are the lines of copyright blurred
2015/03/11 15:50:37
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Sound TM (R) came in to affect in the mid 90s, which is an extension of the IP rights under WTO / TRIPS agreement. Recently there's been a trend to revive past styles (genres) and that's okay if producers make it their 'own unique sound' that isn't all too similar of the original -- Sound TM (R) is a loose manner of matching, whereas (compared to) melody matching is a straight forward process of determination using notation. Ya' just gotta hope none of the jury are tone deaf lol  but I think in this particular case, a panel of experts may need to be weighed into the determination process. Meanwhile, lets see if this case sets a precedence for all future cases in regards to Sound TM (R), I wouldn't be surprised if there are 'in the works' (more revivals to be released), producers pacing frantically about the studio, knees are a knocking, finger nails trimmed to the bone, eyes glued to latest news feed in regards to the outcome of this case. Oh well  its no news to me the way labels love to follow a so-called sure-fire trend rather than take the risk on a totally new unique style i.e. a lot of great bands, great songs are initially rejected for that reason; they don't fit in with the trend.  IMHO, better off being an independent band doing their own 'unique' thang!
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jude77
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Re: Are the lines of copyright blurred
2015/03/11 16:37:10
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UbiquitousBubba In other gnus, all blues artists are now guilty of copyright infringement. Lawyers were disappointed to realize that these artists were already bankrupt, so there is no money to collect.
Best post of the day!!
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tlw
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Re: Are the lines of copyright blurred
2015/03/11 17:38:32
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slartabartfast The message for anyone writing a popular song in the current era is that if you think it will be a hit, you are probably better off just trashing it, and setting your lyric to something that is clearly in the public domain like Greensleeves or Beautiful Dreamer.
Which is fine unless you try and copyright the melody itself as sometimes happens. Many years ago a (rather controversial) now deceased English folk-music collector copyrighted loads of songs and dance music he'd collected from traditional singers and musicians and assigned publishing rights to himself. Some of that music is known to be 150+ years old so there's no way it was his intellectual property. Yet if you record some of the traditional music he collected you might find yourself getting a bill for royalties "payable to the estate of....". One unscrupulous character can cause decades worth of problems where copyrightis concerned.
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soens
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Re: Are the lines of copyright blurred
2015/03/11 18:45:30
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SGodfrey
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Re: Are the lines of copyright blurred
2015/03/12 09:13:59
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Interestingly, for some bizarre reason they were not permitted to play the entire Marvin Gaye song in court - only extracts! The LA Times said:- "The eight-person jury, most of whom appeared to be more of Gaye's generation than Thicke and Williams' demographic, heard "Blurred Lines" several times during the trial and twice watched the raunchy music video — but never got to hear the full recording of 'Got to Give It Up.' Because laws when Gaye wrote the song allowed only the sheet music composition, not the sound recording, to be copyrighted, jurors heard short snippets and a stripped-down version created by Thicke and Williams' musicologist with just Gaye's vocals over a bass line and chords on a keyboard." That's crazy and a miscarriage of justice in my opinion!
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craigb
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Re: Are the lines of copyright blurred
2015/03/12 12:19:37
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Yeah! What's going on?
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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SGodfrey
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Re: Are the lines of copyright blurred
2015/03/12 12:22:50
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craigb Yeah! What's going on?

I see what you did there!!
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ampfixer
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Re: Are the lines of copyright blurred
2015/03/12 13:12:40
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☄ Helpfulby jamesg1213 2015/03/12 14:02:44
It's all bollocks. I listened to both songs and can say that they were both R&B. That's all. To my ears this was not a rip off at all, it is a song that represents a genre'. I can hardly wait to see a big artist getting an interview and being asked what their musical influences were. Influences? Nope, not me, I lived in a bubble so I wouldn't be contaminated by success. And I don't for a minute believe they were suing for the memory of a departed loved one. If they were, they should donate the proceeds to a retirement home for old musicians. It wont happen because they did it to line their pockets.
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kakku
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Re: Are the lines of copyright blurred
2015/03/12 13:26:59
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I think there will eventually be a right to copy law because all the possible nice sounding combinations will at some time in the future be used.
post edited by kakku - 2015/03/12 14:20:02
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UbiquitousBubba
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Re: Are the lines of copyright blurred
2015/03/12 13:51:10
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☄ Helpfulby craigb 2015/03/12 14:03:20
Even the horrendous sounding ones have been taken. We call them Hip Hop. (I'm kidding, of course.) (...or Am I?)
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kakku
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Re: Are the lines of copyright blurred
2015/03/12 14:21:44
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This is a bit silly question but if I would at some point make a great song would it be safe from some nasty plagiarism guy if I just put it in Soundcloud to be freely played? Would my copyrights be 'undeniable'?
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UbiquitousBubba
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Re: Are the lines of copyright blurred
2015/03/12 14:32:58
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It's not a silly question. "Are you going to eat all of that becan?" That's a silly question. There's a difference between what is legally permissible and what people will do. Some laws vary in different countries. In general, you own the copyright when you write a piece of music. Whether you post the song in the Songs forum, Soundcloud, EweToob, or anywhere else, you still own the copyright. Legally, someone else can't steal your work and claim it as their own. If some nefarious scum steals your song (definitions obviously vary), you are legally entitled to sue the miscreant for any damages. Whether or not you can win depends on a number of things. Registering your copyright may support your claim to your material, but proving copyright infringement is not as straightforward as some might like to believe. (Apparently, proving there was no infringement is difficult as well.)
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kakku
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Re: Are the lines of copyright blurred
2015/03/12 16:02:53
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Ok. Thanks for the answer UbiquitousBubba.
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SongCraft
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Re: Are the lines of copyright blurred
2015/03/12 17:24:42
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And of course no surprise.... according to the latest news they're going to seek an appeal of the decision. I hope it don't cost them more than 7.4 million. Labels, producers should be more focused on coming up with unique (new) rather than digging up old trends and/or following the current trend ((as explained in my previous post)) ironically they (major labels, producers, writers) think its a safer bet to follow a trend. Trends: I know this is the case because I've sat in meetings with major labels and publishers in regards to production i.e. they use other writers/musicians they have signed for ideas. You cannot copyright an idea, aww heck you cannot copyright chord progressions either. Anyway, they gave me a recording by another writer/musician ideas / techniques, and yes I didn't feel comfortable about that... Publishers and labels will shape the music direction, production and selection of songs as they see fit and if you say nay? Since this was a period of see how it goes prior to signing a long-term contract... Of course, there's the door, goodbye. In my case, this wasn't the only reason, they claim too difficult to market as is, would cost too much. Its also worth mentioning that the Australian market is much smaller compared to for example, Europe and the US. So, this brings us back full circle to what I said in regards to Trends, they want to play it safe? Ironic eh and worse, the writer/musicians are to blame and take the full brunt of the responsibility if they're taken to court. @ Kakku, Copyright is automatic (as UB explained). IMHO, its best to hold on to your works (songs) and not do what most musicians do, which is to upload just about all their music and provide these sites free content 'Royalty Free' and possibly in worse case scenario, 'Exclusive Rights', in other-words, you get nothing whereas the CEOs of such music sites will make a lot of money, which they invest in magnificent properties, yachts and other luxuries. That said, first up register a label (R) registered trademark will do and register your works to ASCAP or BMI, your works are registered with both you AND a registered label (which is also you) -- This will also give you more clout in recouping royalties and negotiating business deals, especially if you sign with a major label, if so? Your label becomes the sub (partner) for which they (major label) cannot take more than 50% royalties (usually musicians/writers with no strings attached the deal is 85% to the major label)! And if the latest copyright reforms specifically in favor of writers/performers is accepted? It will see a more simplified process of registering that ensures proper (complete) protection of copyrights for both the writers, performers and sound recordings. It will also see a fair-share of royalties based on the acceptance that more and more professional writers/musicians are opting to be independent i.e. have their own registered label, in most cases effectively give them more clout on the negotiation table with major partners (e.g. Labels, Publishing/Licensing, Royalties)! Part of the reason why the music business is so messed up, is because of Internet and rapidly evolving business tactics / schemes and also is in part due to musicians, for several reasons.... The main reasons being; 1... Most musicians/writers are doing it for 'Art' and 'Enjoyment' whilst providing music sites 'Free' content (see my above explanation in regards to music sites, CEOs). These music sites are protected (legal) due to musicians accepting terms i.e. 'Royalty Free'. The other reason being; 2.. Most musicians don't know the business side of the equation let alone willing to learn more about branding and marketing strategies. The other reason being; 3.. Most musicians/writers do not register their works properly (entirely/completely)! To conclude, its best to hold off / limit uploading songs to music sites, until your best works of art (music) is ready for release, but prior to that make sure all works are properly registered (also see my sticky topic; Resources in the Song Forum > copyright protection, registering)! It is also worth knowing that: Distributors should not take a slice of your royalties and hit you with recurring distribution fees. The only exception is retailer commission, which is standard trade practice. A good distributor will also provide a means to include marketing although usually its what is called; Kick Start marketing and it involves closer work-ties with them, you also need to plan way ahead of release. In regards to marketing strategies, you need to keep the momentum rolling once the Kick Start engages. Distributors will also have options to release music videos that ensure greater monetization i.e. give you the best solution for recouping royalties and possibly also advertising revenue options. When music videos are professionally released (distributed) they usually include the label (I explained the benefits of that earlier)! Kakku, I hope this helps set you on the right path. Wish you great success!
post edited by SongCraft - 2015/03/12 18:10:42
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slartabartfast
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Re: Are the lines of copyright blurred
2015/03/12 17:25:20
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kakku This is a bit silly question but if I would at some point make a great song would it be safe from some nasty plagiarism guy if I just put it in Soundcloud to be freely played? Would my copyrights be 'undeniable'?
Whether you put it on Soundcloud for free, or license it to a publisher, or release your own recording of the piece really is not relevant as far as copyright goes. In the US, you will not be able to sue someone who infringes until you register the copyright, but you can do that after the infringement has happened. If you wait to register, you will not be able to win court costs or statutory damages, however. And if you register the song with the Copyright Office, you will establish prima facie evidence of authorship (which can still be successfully challenged). Some countries, like Austraila, do not even have provisions for registration of a copyright, so less paperwork, and even less certainty about protection. If your song is on Soundcloud before the infringing copy is ever public, you might be able to show that the copier might have heard your song and did not just write a significantly similar song independently , and you would be in a better position to show that your song might have been written before his if he decides to sue you for infringement. But nothing would prevent someone else from finding your song on Soundcloud and claiming that it was so similar to their previously written or released song that it was clearly infringing their copyright. After all, if a song is on the internet, anyone might have heard it, and might have copied parts of it even if unconsciously, which might make proving that your work was original even harder. Incidentally, by putting it on SoundCloud, you will have published it, and you will give anyone the right to record their version of your song by paying you a mechanical licensing fee.
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slartabartfast
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Re: Are the lines of copyright blurred
2015/03/12 17:50:46
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SGodfrey Interestingly, for some bizarre reason they were not permitted to play the entire Marvin Gaye song in court - only extracts! The LA Times said:- "The eight-person jury, most of whom appeared to be more of Gaye's generation than Thicke and Williams' demographic, heard "Blurred Lines" several times during the trial and twice watched the raunchy music video — but never got to hear the full recording of 'Got to Give It Up.' Because laws when Gaye wrote the song allowed only the sheet music composition, not the sound recording, to be copyrighted, jurors heard short snippets and a stripped-down version created by Thicke and Williams' musicologist with just Gaye's vocals over a bass line and chords on a keyboard." That's crazy and a miscarriage of justice in my opinion!
I am not sure what part that restriction had in shaping the verdict. Much of the similarity, which the jury apparently found significant, is in the "sound" of the production. By being unable to hear the full version, a lot of that spurious and potentially confusing noise should have had less influence. If the jury had confined their decision to what is normally considered protected content in music there would be little basis for the award. A jury of trained musicians would have been aghast that the suit was ever brought. But in the US we pretend that randomly selected citizens can make distinctions which they are untrained to recognize, and depend on their ability to decide which of two teams of bought and paid for expert witnesses are telling them the truth when they are confused by technical issues. The style, flavor and color of the two songs are similar. The music and lyrics are pretty easily distinguishable. Good luck to anyone writing original material if style becomes the deciding issue. For an example of how a musicalogical analysis of these similarities is even less convincing than listening to the full versions: http://joebennett.net/2014/02/01/did-robin-thicke-steal-a-song-from-marvin-gaye/
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