RobertB
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Re: AudioFanzine gets it wrong
2015/02/09 00:01:33
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Anderton
If you elect to pay monthly, the terms are that you are buying the software over a 12-month period. You can consider that as functionally equivalent to rent to own, but it is not a traditional rental agreement.
And in most rent to own schemes, you end up paying substantially more than you might otherwise. The Cakewalk scheme is pretty modest, and is more similar to the split payment plans at Sweetwater and ZZounds. Yeah I pay a few extra bucks, but I can use it now. Otherwise, I would be saving up and waiting for it. I don't feel that I am being ripped off at all. Ironically, this sort of press might inspire people to check Cakewalk out. Once they see how it really works, they might think, as I did," hey, I can cover that". And the rolling update thing is kind of cool.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: AudioFanzine gets it wrong
2015/02/09 02:59:58
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Anderton
Sanderxpander
Or, just don't use the word "membership". Really, I don't mind, I'm at peace with the new model and think we older users are getting a good deal out of it at least for this upgrade. But it's clearly demonstrable that people mistake this easily. It's all fine to say they should read better but that doesn't solve the fact that it's causing Sonar undeserved bad press.
I still think it would have been a lot worse if we'd used "subscription" because that word alone had a negative connotation in peoples' minds. And really, what Cakewalk is doing is not following the traditional "subscription" model anyway, so I'm sure some people would have said it was misleading to call it such..."hey, my software doesn't die after a year, what is wrong with you people?!?" 
If you have any suggestions for a better term, nothing prevents us from using that going forward (it's not like Cakewalk printed up 30,000 "Cakewalk Membership" T-shirts), but "subscription" is not one of them.
Well, Waves goes with "Waves Update Plan". They offer a very similar deal. I'll be the first to admit that not everyone likes that construction either but it's an alternative at least. The way they sell it is you buy the software and get one year of WUP included. Separating the "year of updates" from the core program helps to clarify this. The only difference is that with Waves, you can't pay monthly and there is no chance for your product to sizzle and die if you don't complete 12 payments.
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jatoth
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Re: AudioFanzine gets it wrong
2015/02/09 08:17:32
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It is only confusing (to some) because CW has made it confusing by attempting to distance itself from the Adobe model.
If I pay something and receive something for one year and then pay again and receive again for one year, THAT IS A SUBSCRIPTION by definition!
Just because is is not Adobe's model of "renting" the "subscription" does not make it something else.
CW can try to call it anything they want, but it IS still a subscription.
John X3e Producer, Sonar Platinum, Sweetwater CreationStation i5 3.1gHz, 12 GB RAM, 500GB SSD OS drive, 1TB SSD audio drive, 1TB archive/misc drive, dual 22" monitors, Windows 7x64, SaffirePro40 (firewire), MOTU MIDI Express XT, Behringer BCF2000, dbx 586, Samson Servo 120a, Yamaha HS80M, Auratone 5c Cubes, Sennheiser HD650, Sony MDR 7509HD, Sony MDR 7506, Kurzweil K2500XS, Roland XP-30, Proteus 2000.
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KPerry
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Re: AudioFanzine gets it wrong
2015/02/09 08:25:53
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It's definitely NOT a subscription by definition - it's a buy to own scheme.
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jatoth
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Re: AudioFanzine gets it wrong
2015/02/09 08:30:13
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KPerry,
How is that?
If I pay once a year for a magazine, and they send me a magazine each month that I get to keep, and after one year they ask me to pay again to receive the magazine each month for one more year. What is that called?
Now just substitute the word software for magazine.
I see absolutely NO DIFFERENCE. Enlighten me.
John X3e Producer, Sonar Platinum, Sweetwater CreationStation i5 3.1gHz, 12 GB RAM, 500GB SSD OS drive, 1TB SSD audio drive, 1TB archive/misc drive, dual 22" monitors, Windows 7x64, SaffirePro40 (firewire), MOTU MIDI Express XT, Behringer BCF2000, dbx 586, Samson Servo 120a, Yamaha HS80M, Auratone 5c Cubes, Sennheiser HD650, Sony MDR 7509HD, Sony MDR 7506, Kurzweil K2500XS, Roland XP-30, Proteus 2000.
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jatoth
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Re: AudioFanzine gets it wrong
2015/02/09 08:41:29
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In a "rent to own" scheme, you make smaller monthly payments for something instead of paying for it all up front.
However, you do not expect to get newer versions (or fixes) of what you purchased each month.
Go down to your local "Rent-to-Own", pick out a new sofa or better yet that big flat screen TV.
Arrange a monthly payment plan. After a year maybe two, you own it. Stop paying and they take it back.
However, they are NOT going to give you an updated TV each month as newer models are released. If you always want the latest model, you would have to have some kind of "update subscription" for the new TV.
As I see CW's model, it is a subscription with a monthly payment plan.
And no, I am not confused.
John X3e Producer, Sonar Platinum, Sweetwater CreationStation i5 3.1gHz, 12 GB RAM, 500GB SSD OS drive, 1TB SSD audio drive, 1TB archive/misc drive, dual 22" monitors, Windows 7x64, SaffirePro40 (firewire), MOTU MIDI Express XT, Behringer BCF2000, dbx 586, Samson Servo 120a, Yamaha HS80M, Auratone 5c Cubes, Sennheiser HD650, Sony MDR 7509HD, Sony MDR 7506, Kurzweil K2500XS, Roland XP-30, Proteus 2000.
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Anderton
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Re: AudioFanzine gets it wrong
2015/02/09 09:05:12
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Sanderxpander
The only difference is that with Waves, you can't pay monthly and there is no chance for your product to sizzle and die if you don't complete 12 payments.
Actually it's very similar...given that it's an update plan, you've already bought the software so it's not going to die if you don't renew. Same with CW. And if as with Waves you pay upfront, you don't have to be concerned about completing 12 payments.
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Anderton
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Re: AudioFanzine gets it wrong
2015/02/09 09:10:18
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jatoth
Just because is is not Adobe's model of "renting" the "subscription" does not make it something else.
CW can try to call it anything they want, but it IS still a subscription.
Here's the situation. Words can have different shades of meaning depending on context. "Subscription" is a very general term. Adobe has taken that term and applied it to a particular sales model. As the first to use the term in that context, and as a giant corporation that pretty much owns a particular industry, they "defined" what subscription as applied to a software purchasing model meant. If you google for a definition of subscription software, you'll find it referenced to Adobe's way of doing things where you don't get to keep what you bought unless you keep renewing. CW did not want to be confused with that.
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jatoth
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Re: AudioFanzine gets it wrong
2015/02/09 09:16:39
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Then CW could have advertized it as "Unlike the Adobe model, you can keep the software once it is paid for."
Which I believe they did.
But, we were also told repeatedly, mostly by fanboys in the forums, that "It is NOT a subscription."
Thus confusing some.
John X3e Producer, Sonar Platinum, Sweetwater CreationStation i5 3.1gHz, 12 GB RAM, 500GB SSD OS drive, 1TB SSD audio drive, 1TB archive/misc drive, dual 22" monitors, Windows 7x64, SaffirePro40 (firewire), MOTU MIDI Express XT, Behringer BCF2000, dbx 586, Samson Servo 120a, Yamaha HS80M, Auratone 5c Cubes, Sennheiser HD650, Sony MDR 7509HD, Sony MDR 7506, Kurzweil K2500XS, Roland XP-30, Proteus 2000.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: AudioFanzine gets it wrong
2015/02/09 09:22:34
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Anderton
Sanderxpander
The only difference is that with Waves, you can't pay monthly and there is no chance for your product to sizzle and die if you don't complete 12 payments.
Actually it's very similar...given that it's an update plan, you've already bought the software so it's not going to die if you don't renew. Same with CW. And if as with Waves you pay upfront, you don't have to be concerned about completing 12 payments.
I agree, I'm merely being pragmatic here and trying to offer (at your request) a better way of phrasing the current offer to avoid more undeserved bad press. I added the difference between the models only as an afterthought. This would also address jatoth's interpretation because it implies not that you're receiving "the software" month by month, but rather that you buy the software and receive "updates and content" for a year. I don't know, maybe the difference is too slight. Again, I'm not objecting to the deal we're getting at all. Just wondering if there would be a way to phrase it that doesn't make people jump to the wrong conclusion.
post edited by Sanderxpander - 2015/02/09 09:38:53
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jatoth
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Re: AudioFanzine gets it wrong
2015/02/09 09:24:49
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Just for clarification.
From Websters:
subscription: an agreement that you make with a company to get a publication or service regularly and that you usually pay for in advance.
an arrangement for providing, receiving, or making use of something of a continuing or periodic nature on a prepayment plan.
Sounds exactly like the CW payment model. Or is it me?
John X3e Producer, Sonar Platinum, Sweetwater CreationStation i5 3.1gHz, 12 GB RAM, 500GB SSD OS drive, 1TB SSD audio drive, 1TB archive/misc drive, dual 22" monitors, Windows 7x64, SaffirePro40 (firewire), MOTU MIDI Express XT, Behringer BCF2000, dbx 586, Samson Servo 120a, Yamaha HS80M, Auratone 5c Cubes, Sennheiser HD650, Sony MDR 7509HD, Sony MDR 7506, Kurzweil K2500XS, Roland XP-30, Proteus 2000.
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Karyn
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Re: AudioFanzine gets it wrong
2015/02/09 09:39:16
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jatoth
Just for clarification.
From Websters:
subscription: an agreement that you make with a company to get a publication or service regularly and that you usually pay for in advance.
an arrangement for providing, receiving, or making use of something of a continuing or periodic nature on a prepayment plan.
Sounds exactly like the CW payment model. Or is it me?
It's you. As you rightly quoted, subscription allows you to continue receiving a publication or service for as long as you keep paying. BUT, if you stop paying, you stop getting the service, or in the case of Adobe, you can no longer use the software. Cakewalk are allowing you to pay in 12 instalments, rather than a lump sum. If you complete the 12 instalments you OWN it. That is NOT subscription, that is paying in instalments. It's not being pedantic, they are 2 completely different things. If you already own Sonar, the specific thing you're buying is a 12 month membership to an upgrade plan. This entitles you to monthly updates to the core program and extra content. If you don't own Sonar, you're buying the complete software package of your choice, plus a 12 month membership as above. Subscription does not exist in the Sonar universe.
Mekashi Futo. Get 10% off all Waves plugins.Current DAW. i7-950, Gigabyte EX58-UD5, 12Gb RAM, 1Tb SSD, 2x2Tb HDD, nVidia GTX 260, Antec 1000W psu, Win7 64bit, Studio 192, Digimax FS, KRK RP8G2, Sonar Platinum
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mudgel
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Re: AudioFanzine gets it wrong
2015/02/09 09:50:30
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mudgel
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Re: AudioFanzine gets it wrong
2015/02/09 09:55:43
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Karyn
jatoth
Just for clarification.
From Websters:
subscription: an agreement that you make with a company to get a publication or service regularly and that you usually pay for in advance.
an arrangement for providing, receiving, or making use of something of a continuing or periodic nature on a prepayment plan.
Sounds exactly like the CW payment model. Or is it me?
It's you
...................
Subscription does not exist in the Sonar universe.
Seems some people just have to be right. Not because their being right will correct some terrible injustice. No! Just so they can be right. This is done despite the fact that they are wrong anyway. Does it really matter? No! How many more lines of text are going to be applied to flogging this dead horse? Thousands at least and more, probably.
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jatoth
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Re: AudioFanzine gets it wrong
2015/02/09 09:59:15
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Karyn,
I am not talking about the monthly installments AT ALL. Monthly installments are a PAYMENT PLAN. Which only adds to the confusion of some.
If I pay CW something in advance and CW agrees to provide me something for a limited time (one year). And then I need to pay CW something in advance to receive something later again for a limited time (one more year), what do you call that? CW calls it "membership" Websters calls it a subscription.
Continually telling people a subscription is not a subscription only adds to their confusion.
As I said earlier, I am not the least bit confused. I understand the English language pretty well. And I know exactly what CW is promising to give me for my money. I am merely pointing this out based on the thread's title. AudioFanzine did NOT get it wrong, a subscription is a subscription, regardless of what CW wants to call it.
John X3e Producer, Sonar Platinum, Sweetwater CreationStation i5 3.1gHz, 12 GB RAM, 500GB SSD OS drive, 1TB SSD audio drive, 1TB archive/misc drive, dual 22" monitors, Windows 7x64, SaffirePro40 (firewire), MOTU MIDI Express XT, Behringer BCF2000, dbx 586, Samson Servo 120a, Yamaha HS80M, Auratone 5c Cubes, Sennheiser HD650, Sony MDR 7509HD, Sony MDR 7506, Kurzweil K2500XS, Roland XP-30, Proteus 2000.
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mudgel
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Re: AudioFanzine gets it wrong
2015/02/09 10:04:30
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Where AudioFanzine got it wrong was in saying that it was like the Adobe subscription which it isn't.
In any case I started this thread purely for the purpose of informing Cakewalk as I stated in my OP. The rest is just wasted words that don't amount to anything because they are all outside the scope of this thread; should have been locked as I requested. That's it for me now.
Mike V. (MUDGEL) STUDIO: Win 10 Pro x64, SPlat & CbB x64, PC: ASUS Z370-A, INTEL i7 8700k, 32GIG DDR4 2400, OC 4.7Ghz. Storage: 7 TB SATA III, 750GiG SSD & Samsung 500 Gig 960 EVO NVMe M.2. Monitors: Adam A7X, JBL 10” Sub. Audio I/O & DSP Server: DIGIGRID IOS & IOX. Screen: Raven MTi + 43" HD 4K TV Monitor. Keyboard Controller: Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88.
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Karyn
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Re: AudioFanzine gets it wrong
2015/02/09 10:04:42
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mudgel
Karyn
jatoth
Just for clarification.
From Websters:
subscription: an agreement that you make with a company to get a publication or service regularly and that you usually pay for in advance.
an arrangement for providing, receiving, or making use of something of a continuing or periodic nature on a prepayment plan.
Sounds exactly like the CW payment model. Or is it me?
It's you
...................
Subscription does not exist in the Sonar universe.
Seems some people just have to be right. Not because their being right will correct some terrible injustice. No! Just so they can be right.
This is done despite the fact that they are wrong anyway.
Does it really matter? No!
How many more lines of text are going to be applied to flogging this dead horse? Thousands at least and more, probably.
The problem is that many folk come here to decide whether or not they are going to buy Sonar as opposed to some other DAW. (I'm told that other DAWs do exist, but I'm sceptical..) It is only fair to those folk that what they read here is correct. As hosts we have 2 basic choices. We can reply to every incorrect post with the correct information, or we can lock (or outright delete) the blatantly incorrect posts. The fallout still hasn't settled from the last blatantly incorrect thread that I locked on the subject of Membership. All we can do is keep correcting people every time.
Mekashi Futo. Get 10% off all Waves plugins.Current DAW. i7-950, Gigabyte EX58-UD5, 12Gb RAM, 1Tb SSD, 2x2Tb HDD, nVidia GTX 260, Antec 1000W psu, Win7 64bit, Studio 192, Digimax FS, KRK RP8G2, Sonar Platinum
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Karyn
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Re: AudioFanzine gets it wrong
2015/02/09 10:10:20
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jatoth
Continually telling people a subscription is not a subscription only adds to their confusion.
Nobody is saying a subscription is not a subscription. We are saying CW Membership is not a subscription. You are saying it is... THAT is what is confusing people. Please stop saying it. it is not.
Mekashi Futo. Get 10% off all Waves plugins.Current DAW. i7-950, Gigabyte EX58-UD5, 12Gb RAM, 1Tb SSD, 2x2Tb HDD, nVidia GTX 260, Antec 1000W psu, Win7 64bit, Studio 192, Digimax FS, KRK RP8G2, Sonar Platinum
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pwalpwal
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Re: AudioFanzine gets it wrong
2015/02/09 10:13:08
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maybe there should be a sticky?
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bitflipper
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Re: AudioFanzine gets it wrong
2015/02/09 10:34:57
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☄ Helpfulby mudgel 2015/02/09 11:04:57
Thread locked at the request of the original poster.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Jimmy Landry [Cakewalk]
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Re: AudioFanzine gets it wrong
2015/02/09 12:13:19
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We would like to sincerely thank those of you who noticed Audiofanzine's post and brought it to our attention. We appreciate the support in getting the word out that our Membership Model is in fact nothing like a subscription based model. Audiofanzine is a great international resource for musicians and we appreciate them fixing the error: http://en.audiofanzine.co...ws/a.play,n.19748.html “In a recent story about the launch of Pro Tools 12, Audiofanzine mistakenly stated that the Sonar membership program was a “rental,” like Adobe or Avid offer, which is not the case. We regret the error, and have corrected that reference.” — Mike Levine U.S. Editor, Audiofanzine ~Jimmy Landry Cakewalk Artist and Public Relations
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