BEST WAY TO RECORD SAMPLES FOR DS864

Your timing is impeccable, Aaron. I've just spent a large portion of the New Year (thus far <g>) battling the DS864. Your method seems like it might be the way to go for this sampler, but you might want to decrease the interval between samples to a half- or quarter-octave to faithfully reproduce the sounds. It would depend on the characteristics of the sound, and how accurately you want to reproduce it. Many commercial outfits sample every note at several velocity levels (say 3 levels, upwards to 12).

The DS864's 'sample editor' only allows you to import samples one at a time, then set up velocity layers with the mouse. I'd suggest that you set up your keyboard to send a static velocity (if possible) for each of the layers that you need, and sample those individually. You'll have to do this at each interval that you've selected [say, 20 samples at a half-octave X 3 velocity layers each]. I know, it's a PITA.

I wouldn't worry too much about the exact key press length of each sample, as long as you catch enough of it for a good looping point, and include any characteristic decay that the sound has. You'll have the ability to adjust for length up to a certain extent in Sound Forge, and you can shape the envelope later extensively in the Amp EG's 7-stage envelope. The main problem for me lies in getting the actual samples into the sampler with some accuracy.

I will tell you a couple of tips that I've found in the latest intense session with the DS864, and they're nowhere to be found in the documentation. It doesn't seem to like mono files, or I should say non-stereo .wavs. I may have had a corrupt one, but one royalty-free sample that I loaded only came in on the right side of the stereo field only. It worked for that session, but brought P5 crashing down every time upon loading the saved patches. Took quite a while to track down the problem, as I had built 8 channels containing 12-36 samples each. Save often; both as an individual .dp8 program, and as a .ds8 bank. That saved my butt from losing a night's worth of work.

Import your first sample from the folder icon on the second line down [the .dp8 line], and each subsequent sample from the Add button in the Key Map Editor. When you import a sample, the Root note always seems to come in a semitone high. Watch for this, and correct for it as you go. If you're sampling at the octave intervals that you've described, bring in the first one, and drag it down to cover to C0. Adjust the Root note back to C2 [it'll come in at C5], and drag the red box horizontally to just under your next sample's root [to B2 if your next one is rooted at C3]. Leave it selected [red]. That'll position the next sample in the correct spot for Adding, although you'll then have to select the incoming sample and adjust it's root note each time. When you've reached the last sample, drag the box upwards to G10 to cover any dead spots.

If you're then going to layer in different velocity samples, drag each sample of your first set to it's upper level limit. Put all your velocity samples in the same folder as the original first sample loaded from the second line. Name your samples appropriately. [Follow those steps, and you'll thank yourself later.] After you've spanned the keyboard in the step [in the paragraph above], you'll notice that your sample for the next velocity layer gets loaded "beyond" G10. Click on the little black box listing your samples [to the left of the Root display; it's the only one with a dropdown], and select the correct sample. Go all the way to the right in the Key Map Editor, and drag it back to the left where it belongs. You'll have to follow the same steps as above, then the next samples of this velocity layer will load in the correct position. Drag the lower level limit upward (and the upper limit down, if appropriate) to set the velocity range.

I know; this is a real hassle, but I'm just stubborn enough to attempt it. It's easier to just find some Akai or SoundFont files; at least the samples come in as a whole, keymapped correctly. That takes much of the drudgery out of the process. But I had to try it again with .wav files. I've eliminated a step by using royalty-free samples from all those music magazine CDs that have been collecting dust, and I can tell you that it's still not easy.

That said, the synth processing section of the DS864 is fantastic, and if you can stick it out, you'll be rewarded with some spectacular sounds. I just put together a bank of 8 sets of multisamples, each on a different MIDI channel and output for FX processing. The results bowled me over, and there's no need to use the FX, after all. I had intended to upload that bank to project5.com, but although the bank file is only a Meg and a half, the programs within it add up to over 100 Megs! I'll have to find a way under the upload limit; perhaps by uploading them one program at a time.

I hope that this helps, Aaron, and I'm glad to see that you've begun using the program again. No hard feelings about that "other" post; I sincerely wish that everything works out for you soon.

B rock

Thanks for your amazing reply I think you have covered everything, One thing tho....

This looping point!?!?!?!?!

Ive seen it on sample cds when I opened a .wav in sound forge but how do i set it up to loop within DS864 when pressing keys?
I didnt think this was possible.

Do I set the loop points within Sound Forge and then DS864 recognises these points, I know your gonna say no cause it cant be that easy...

Thanks for your support,

I would have died if I ended up letting P5 go.

bye.

Techead

Thanks for your swift feeback thats a great help.

Thanks...

Happy New Year

I think that you're onto something here, Bob. I've set up some experimental banks and patches, and it appears that the synth processing settings are saved in both of the file types, with the last one to be loaded overriding the previous settings. For example, you can save some settings in a bank file, and when you load a program into Slot #2, only that slot's parameters are written over. Of course, when you load a bank over some slots loaded with programmable setups, it overwrites all eight slots.

As we speculated, the .ds8 bank points to the .dp8 programs within it, and evidently saves the path, as well. If you dump all your program patch files into a folder (as I do for file mangement), then rename the folder, the bank file loses its way. It does offer to search for the missing components, though. I didn't follow through to see if it searches every drive (magnetic; optical; flash; etc.) for the files, but it would be neat if we could trick the process into tracking down a URL. [Hmm ... save it to a dummy .html ... nope; I'm trying too hard.] The same goes for using track patches. I didn't think that I could circumvent the process with them, but it was worth a shot. Interestingly, the file size of the track patch was close to identical to that of the .ds8 file, without any FX loaded.

But I still think that this scenario has possibilities. You'd have to stick to the Akai samples at Hollow Sun or another website, and provide the end-user with the links in your documentation. Perhaps the Kurzweil or SoundFont options would work as well. I know that .sf2 seems to keymap correctly, but I'd stay away from the .wav or .aif files for this method.

Load whatever key-mappable format that readily available, do all your processing and refinements. Save the banks/programs for your own use and reference, then swap out the file(s) with a very small, dummy .wav file with the same sample rate, bit depth, file name (without the same extension) and characteristics (to be on the safe side) created in Sound Forge. Upload the reduced .zip file to P5.com with instructions, and let the end-user download the correct audio file to swap out at his/her end.

That begs the question: Would the end-user be willing to do so, and save the results for their own use [essential to this scheme], or would it get passed over in search of instant gratification?

Damn, Robert, I almost fell off my chair! I guess that's what they mean by ROFLMAO. The dog even investigated to see what happened. That's the funniest thing that I've seen in a while, and truly borne of frustration.

Cakewalk Questionnaire: What synths don't you use in P5, and why not?
Answer: DS864___Can't see it.

Did you know that those little yellow buttons in the EGs are labeled Nor(mal), Rep(eat), and Free? The controls provide for some interesting stuff, but they're difficult to select and aren't textured with Braille. In Cake's defense, they did allow for zooming to 400% in the Key Map Editor, but then you'll suffer from whiplash trying to catch your samples as they fly by; it's like NASCAR. I know now what I've suspected all along: the DS864 was a collaboration between the Marquis de Sade & Mr. Magoo.

Hmmm....I wonder....hmm....the programmer tech in me says it should be possible to write a new computer program that would become a DS864 programming tool-----kinda like an editor/librarian for a regular hardware synth only for this DS864 softsynth. You tweak your programs and banks "offline" in the editor then audition them in the sampler. Something far more readable than the DS864 is itself. My eyes go boinkers trying to read the iddy-biddy controls in the DS864 from a couple of feet away on my 19" monitor at 1600x1200 resolution.

I wonder if Cakewalk would make the .dp8 and .ds8 file formats available...

I suppose it would destroy the quality of your samples, but have you used any tuned loop sampling techniques to thin the sample down to the minimal number of cycles necessary to make it sound good? This might shrink the file sizes significantly...

Well, Bob, where do I begin? <g> I did try to reduce the waveform sizes using various techniques in SF and other apps, but I was unsatisfied with the reduction in quality. I'm sure that there's a good balance point to be reached there somewhere, but that process, coupled with that of the sample loading/editing, left me frustrated, and I wasn't making a significant enough dent in the file size of the end results. I had multiple samples stacked in velocity layers, and keymapped every quarter- or half-octave [primarily concentrated in the middle octaves, Blue <g>]; anything less sounded stretched.

Edit: I should've noted somewhere in this discussion that the void that I was trying to fill with the patch programming was that of complex, highly evolving synthesizer programs; something that's lacking in the included programs [well, there's the Dream Experience; OK, usable, meat & potatoes synth patches]. It's surprising how well-suited the DS864 is for that direction. That particular goal set a limit in how much waveform reduction that I could get away with.

I agree: the .dp8 program files must contain a modified version of the .wav files, along with the processing parameters. One strange thing that I've found is that you can replace the .dp8's in a bank, and Project5 will ask you about saving the changes. After a few times, it no longer bothers to ask again. Sometimes the parameters settings seem to carry over from the last loaded program, and other times not. [No definitive evidence here; take into consideration that it's been a long night ...] That's what first led me to believe that the synth module settings might be stored in each type.

I think that we can use that fact to our advantage; I've already set up default programming "blanks" as .ds8s and track patches. They have custom Amp EG settings, all the outputs "un-bypassed", and some commonly used routings in place. I thought of uploading the .ds8 banks as convenient "program packs", and also to highlight the the multiple MIDI channels and outputs. I have some patterns that contain complete mini-projects with 8 instruments mapped to different MIDI channels, all within one instrument: the DS864. A virtual "project-in-a-pattern", if you will; that's something that I haven't seen done, and I wanted to demonstrate the power with this to Project5 users. There's some other programming aids that I wanted to throw in, like a long pattern sequencing all possible MIDI notes, which repeats at differing velocities. That pattern seems to make mistakes in mapping (both horizontally & vertically) jump out at you audibly, reducing the need to squint over the interface, or manually "proof-read" with your KB controller. I resigned myself to having to upload only the .dp8 files, but even those have proven to be too large.

As far as inserting dummy .wav files, I'm curious as to whether the actual .wavs would import correctly key- and velocity-mapped, following the stand-in's lead. I'm also curious to know if the Cake formats are based on the Akai format. I've always wanted to see what you've suggested: an expanded editor of the DS864, even as an add-on. It shouldn't be that difficult of a task. I'm no coder, but look around at all the template editors popping up for hardware devices. Simple GUI; no frills, like a SynthEdit creation; bi-directional communication mirroring what's going on in software & the device.

Of course, ideally, that would be a part of the sampler itself. I was hoping for such an improvement to crop up in v.2, but my hopes for a January release are starting to fade. All I see are those "Highly Addictive" ads left over from June of 2003, and crickets everywhere else ...

This seems a primitive way of makeing new sounds for ds864 is there a better way

as an alternative,,,, why not use all the tools in P5 ,,,it's alot of fun,,,,
and ,,,I didn't read through all this thread ,, I starting getting dizzy in the middle ,,,,,,

“Keep it simple”,,,, my grandfather always told me,, IMHO,, sampling is like gardening,,,, you can create many sounds from just one sound ,,, as you can create many flowers from just one seed,,you don’t need a wave editor ,, you can use the ds864 or any p5 synth along with effects ,,,there are numerous possibilities ,,just create a one measure .ptn pattern in the p-seq,,,then insert it into a synth track and export as a wav., file ,, then import it into any synth that reads .wav files ,,,,, for ex,, the ds864,,, adding layers then,,, you can save it as a .dp8 ,, if you wish,,,,,

happy gardening,,,,,

why does it have to be so frigging small

have you tried using the "magnifier" it's located in windows accessibilites tools,, works great ,,

I know now what I've suspected all along: the DS864 was a collaboration between the Marquis de Sade & Mr. Magoo.

please ,,,lets keep mr. magoo out of this ,,,,

For anybody interested, I wanted to learn how to work with DS864's key maps (mainly due to this thread) and ended up creating a couple of cheap programs for it. I'm not saying that these are great (or even good, for that matter), but I figured I'd put them up for download since I endured the insanity of DS864's tiny key map editor window over several hours.

1. Ultra-cheap digital stage piano (~30 MB)

http://paintedblue.panicnow.net/Instruments/StagePiano.zip

There is a Track Patch file included in the ZIP that you might want to try out (i.e. by copying the P5H file to your Patches folder and using the Insert From Patch command instead of adding DS864 directly). Otherwise, the piano is recorded dry, so you'll have to add your own effects. I only sampled one velocity layer, but I included every key in the middle octaves. By all means, it's not a great piano, but it might be useful for layering with other instruments (e.g. strings/synth pads).


2. Semi-cool synth pad (~30 MB)

http://paintedblue.panicnow.net/Instruments/SynthPad.zip

There are two Track Patch files included in the ZIP that show two very different sounds using the same program. This one has eight velocity layers across the middle octaves, so it is a bit more interesting than the digital piano.


Make sure that you copy the banks to your DS864 banks folder (e.g. D:\Program Files\Cakewalk\Shared DXi\DS864\Banks). If you download both programs, you might want to try layering them in a single DS8 bank file.

Anyway, I'll probably have to take both files down soon due to the bandwidth cost, so get them now (if you wish to be disappointed by mediocrity)!

Blue... I love this "dried" piano. Glad to have it (despite having Sampletanks). Thanks a lot for that!
How did you make this?

I would like to make samples of my KORG Trinity patches (for my own use) so i can use it in my productions.

Did you record using a wav editor?

I endured the insanity of DS864's tiny key map editor window over several hours

minuscule, diminutive, lilliputian, miniature, minute, teensy, teensy-weensy, teeny, teeny-weeny, teeny-tiny.


thanks for the patches PaintedBlue

mmm...I dont understand all that. Too bad. I'd like to have a go at this too. Maybe (sh'yea right ) I could get the okay from Korg to put them on P5.com content page.

Techead... Its yer everyday plain Jane Korg Trinity 61-key model. I think it was the first of it's kind (with the large touch-activated screen!)

Kudos for posting your procedure, Blue. This is how I always envisioned the PSYN-tology tutorials developing, with unique contributions from everyone completing the picture. That is the way to go: record MIDI to trigger your samples in a repeatable & automatic fashion, taking a lot of the strain off of the wave editor chores. I'm in the process of determining what the DS864 likes and doesn't like, as far as sample rates, bit depth, etc., but nothing definitive as yet. Also, thanks for uploading the samples. I'm still dialing-up ['gators keep eating the HS techs before they arrive here <g>], so my d/l may have be to be an over-nighter.

Now I am seriously looking forward to those DS864 tutorials so I can make the most out of those filters and LFOs! In my Track Patches, I did some amplitude envelope modifications to give the piano a velocity response (despite being one layer of samples), and I also messed around with LFO-based panning and tremolo

Here's how I ended up re-discovering the sampler. I was working on two things at once: the first was an X-Treme SFX tutorial on using the Pitch EG and LFOs as a one-shot sample mangler. That ended up as a cool complete drum kit; all fashioned from a single sample taken from a WWII news reel ["America's fighting men need meat!"]. The second was an avant-garde vocal cluster; inspired, constructed, and resulting from the quirky .wav input scheme of the sampler. Think of the monolith scene in 2001: A Space Odyssey. I figured that the .wavs were coming in wrong anyway: out-of-tune due to the root note bug, and I felt that I had little control over the keymapping, so why not take advantage of that? Velocity layers brought different tones into the tone poem, so the note relationships were ever-changing. Awesome ambient textures!

Then I got angry with myself for not pursuing the sampler through to its intended purpose, so another all-night session of banging my head against the wall began in earnest. I haven't written (read: completed) any tutorials, as yet, but here's some interesting tidbits to get you started:

As mentioned above, you can select among the samples in the Key Map Editor readouts. That's undocumented, not so obvious, and a life-saver when navigating the interface. Don't forget to also use the Sample Edit Controls to fine-tune and level match your samples to each other.

You can simulate velocity layering with the Vel knobs in the Amp EG, especially in conjunction with a similar setting in the Filter EGs. Remember that these knobs go in a negative direction as well, so a harder key press results in a softer note. This is really cool for FX within the Pitch EG. The Time knob scales the entire EG size, like a master knob that keeps the relationship of the other sliders intact.

The LFOs have one unique feature that I'd like to point out: the Delay knobs really do fade in over time, rather than jump to the settings after the specified time, unlike the Delays in the EGs, or in PSYN. That allows you to do truly delayed vibrato effects, subtle panning, and a variety of other cool effects. Set the Destination to Pitch, and the waveform to Square with a slow rate & fade-in, and you'll hear one ascending & one descending pitch change simultaneously! The pitch gets slurred between values by the Delay knob, and the Depth becomes a pitch range device.

The Pitch EG [my favorite] features a positive/negative Amount. That allows you to pitch upwards from your base sample pitch, or downwards, too. All sorts of subtle [and not-so-subtle] stuff, as well: the slight pitch "twang" of a plucked string; "unplugged" tape machines; PB only on releasing your key pressure; etc. Velocity effects here, too. Those with aftertouch capabilities can introduce controllable "wow & flutter" into their sample playback with ease.

I really do need to put something together, if only to explain the 7-stage envelopes. There's a lot of power here, but they're a little different from the norm, and take some thought, as the controls are more interactive than usual with each other. Aftertouch is available here, and the Normal, Repeat, and Free switches [the latter will play your envelope through to its conclusion, irregardless of your key release. Great for overlapping orchestral passages and ambient pads.] There is a highly informative section in the Help file that diagrams the EGs.

I guess that I'd better stop now; they'll be nothing left for the tutorials ...

Edit: Well, I guess that I left out any filter tips. They're quite similar to the filter sections in PSYN, but the number of poles don't seem to be the same as that synth. They might be, but the filters sound so much different to me. The key to these is in fine-tuning the EG Mod Amount setting with the CF and Resonance. There's not enough filter resonance to go "over the top", but enough for some digital nastiness. The LFOs are skewed towards the lower end of the range, and don't have enough Tempo Sync range for my taste. Random is unusable sync'ed to tempo, and only works well at extremely low Rate settings while free-running. Make sure to set your filter release slider at or a little beyond that of the Amp EG, for a more natural sounding patch.

OK, now this reply is really over ...

ORIGINAL: techead

DA, man...I wouldn't mind playing around with one of those (76 or 88 key, though). I'll bet you paid about the same for it that I did for my X2 when it was new.

Got my receipt right here buddy! Says I paid $2400* for it on June 16, 1997....ahhh.... worth every penny too! Was the first keyboard I'd ever seen that was 'nickel-chrome' coloured with a huge "TOUCH-VIEW" indigo backlit screen. I originally intended on buying the Korg 01/W but when I had finally saved up enough for it, it had been discontinued (how fortunate!).

*Canadian Funds = equiv. to $1733.85 USD on that date in '97