Xen,

I hear you... but it seems like this is another case of the marketing guys/gals getting too far out in front of the engineers.

I've been looking at Ableton Live as a workaround (check out the new Akai APC40 Controller, designed exclusively to work with Live). I got very excited about it, but I'm starting to think even that won't meet my needs as a one-man sax player, despite what some of the earlier posters to this thread write.

If you're not familliar with Live, you can work/perform in what's called Session view and select different parts of a song on the fly. Session view will loop that part of the song until you're ready to go on to the next. There's also an Arrangement view that will play the song back in its entirety, just like a standard sequencer. You can start a song in Arrangment view, and then pop over to Session view to improvise/jam/whatever.

Unfortunately (from what I understand so far...someone PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong), there is no way to pop back into Arrangment view and finish out the song once you're done in Session. Nor is there a way to specify the number of loops for a given part of the song in either view. And, from what I understand, if you're in Session view, you have to manually advance to the next part of the song from your current loop.

That's fine if you're a DJ, backup singer, or playing 2nd keyboards...but if you're at the front of the stage or doing anything that requires both hands...you're SOL. I have a wireless rig for my sax because a) as a one-man show, I need to periodically check the FOX mix while the music is playing, and b) I'm an entertainer...and do walk around the crowd occaisonally. I can't imagine it looking good at all having to run back to the comptuer every few seconds and scroll to the next section to keep the song moving along.

I spent a couple of hours on Live's forum last night trying to figure out how other people use it...well, live. Turns out that the majority of folks there do NOT use Live live...at least according to the posts I saw. They've also identified this ability as a pressing need, and wonder why Ableton hasn't come up with a solution.

Go figure!

Xen,

LOL!! After reading your post (page one) you clearly demonstrated that you have not much experience in regards to FOH+FB systems! Here's a quote from your post:

ORIGINAL: Xen
What if there are multiple band members (such as drummer, percussionist) needing different click tracks at different volumes ??

You only need ONE click-track source! From there either a distribution box and/or good FOH+FB system can route to stage monitors where each band member can have their own mix/levels. On stage typically there are floor wedge monitors but also side-fills (L/R) and drum fill. This is the typical setup I am experienced with at major venues including outdoor concerts dating back to the 1970's.

* In the 80's I built a custom distribution box (very easy to build) to run ONE click-track for on-stage monitoring! Each output source with vol level. But I used the headphone monitoring option for our drummer since that's what he preferred, successfully keeping in-time with the midi backing.

Nowadays solution! If you have good knowledge of SONAR along with a good audio interface then you can take that on-stage and have a setup with excellent flexibility routing tracks including click-track to FOH and on-stage monitoring. Whereas for smaller venues a good mixer should also include good stage monitoring setup, anything less than that then you may as well be playing at a friends house.

Here's a few tips for 'live' performance using SONAR (without using V-Studio):

> You can get more flexibility/routing for live on-stage monitor cue-in and click-track with a good audio interface + SONAR simply by compiling projects (songs) NOT the entire full-blown projects that contain 40+ tracks and midi because it's very important to "keep it lean" for live performance use... just several audio tracks and possibly a low-resource VSTi midi setup! How many tracks + midi? that depends... keep in mind there are limits due to your PC specs/capability. Don't push it hard! Don't be an air-head! Know your limits.

> Xen if you insist on having a dozen click-tracks LOL!! Then go for it, compile it in SONAR!! It's very easy to do, if you know what you're doing.

> Keep in mind when using backing tracks (audio and possibly midi also) it's best to have those backing tracks pre-arranged!

> If anyone thinks that Ableton Live is the best solution then think again!! Forget about using lots of VSTi plugins (softsynths) because it too like any other DAW can be pushed too hard!! The least resourced hungry for live used is audio playback without effect plugins, therefor plan your setup wisely.

> Also keep in mind that 16.bit/44.1 kHz is CD quality and good enough for backing and most CPU's will thank you but if you insist on wanting better than CD quality then 24.bit/44.1 kHz for live use is good enough.

> Learn to use SONAR's excellent mixer routing capabilities.

> Use FOH hardware effect processors (such as: comp/limiters, reverbs)! Again, don't go pushing your PC too hard by using ton of VST plugins especially convoluted reverbs, LP-FX's and GR3/IK-AmpSims. Also remember that VSTi plugins such as Ivory Grand for example can be CPU intensive. If you play bass or guitar? best to use hardware setup such as; Amp/mic'd or Di-AmpSim. For pianist I suggest using a good hardware stage keyboard/Piano. Keyboardist? you can use 'less intensive' VSTi's live but keep in mind the limits of your PC specs.

> SONAR on a well config', setup and maintained PC or Laptop will be stable especially if that setup is solely used as a DAW and nothing else. Don't go buying 'off-the-shelf' laptops and PC since a lot of those include pre-installed software bundles and are not optimized or configured best for DAW use. I recommend for example: Jim Roseberry (Studiocat.com), Sweetwater or ADK.

ORIGINAL: Xen

What if there are multiple band members (such as drummer, percussionist) needing different click tracks at different volumes ??

ORIGINAL: SongCraft

You only need ONE click-track source! From there either a distribution box and/or good FOH+FB system can route to stage monitors where each band member can have their own mix/levels. On stage typically there are floor wedge monitors but also side-fills (L/R) and drum fill. This is the typical setup I am experienced with at major venues including outdoor concerts dating back to the 1970's.

* In the 80's I built a custom distribution box (very easy to build) to run ONE click-track for on-stage monitoring! Each output source with vol level. But I used the headphone monitoring option for our drummer since that's what he preferred, successfully keeping in-time with the midi backing.

ORIGINAL: Xen

Well, the scenario I had in mind (and this was NOT my main point) was what if the drummer/percussionist wanted different (possibly verbal) cues in their click track. A bit far-fetched maybe, but it was just an example.

The overall point I was making is unchanged. I was giving various reasons (most of which you have ignored) why it would be useful to have more than 2 general-purpose line outputs fed by the same number of channels of a WAV-like audio format. It's not that controversial, honest!

Xen,

DUH!! Having multiple outputs to also allow separate click-track output is what I've been talking about all along!!

So please, stop trying to evade by twisting what I meant.


You should have thanked me for giving you tips on how to use SONAR for 'live' on-stage performance and recommending several custom PC builders.

ORIGINAL: Xen

SONAR has a small market share of DAWs - probably less than 1%

You're wrong Mr.Xen!! SONAR is NOT less than 1% share of market!!

In fact, SONAR is a very capable and powerful DAW if YOU know how to use it.

If you're not a Troll then you better wise up and refrain from any further discussion with me! You had you last say, I had mine.

Goodbye.

Xen,

After doing some more research on Ableton's forum, I said 'screw it' and contacted them directly over the holiday. I described my situation, what I thought was the answer, and asked them to verify or clarify. I e-mailed both the tech support guys and the customer care (sales) guys.

The following is a transcript of my original question, and the answers from both the tech and cust. care departments. I provide it here for solely for your information and own decision making...enjoy!

P.S. I also asked a follow-up question...if you'd like I'll post that when I get an answer.

-A


Affuman's First E-mail question to Ableton:

>Greetings! I am new to Live...I got Live Lite with a controller, and am considering purchasing the full program and the APC40 if it meets my needs. Was wondering if you could please help the decision making process? I've searched the forum and read the manual, but have not found the answer to live performance techniques.
>
>Here's the background: I'm a sax player who performs one-man shows and duets. I'm looking for software that will let me drop in backing tracks (each song composed of individual .wav files for keys, drums, bass, etc.), for an entire show...say about 30 songs. In each song, I'd like the ability to get out of a pre-arranged sequence, and loop certain sections for improvisation and soloing..like the chorus, or verse, or whatever. When I'm done soloing, I need to be able to easily send the song back to the pre-arranged sequence in order to finish out the song (and I would need to be able to do this via a footswitch since both my hands are full).
>
>I thought Live's Session view would be perfect for this: according to the manual, you can leave the Arrangement view, go into session, and manipulate to your hearts content. But...can you then go back into Arrangement (without stopping) in order to finish playing the song?
>
>Would arranging your song in this fashion require you to place clips in both the Arrangment and Session views? If so, do you find that this eats up a lot of storage?
>
>If you must do this entirely in Session view...I understand. But is there a way to automatically advance to the next scene for those sections that only require playing one time (like the intro?, or scenes leading up to the solo section?)? I ask since, as a horn player using both hands, it would be really difficult to keep going back to the computer to advance to the next scene.
>
>If this is someting that must be done in Max...do you know of any programs that have been created so far that fit my needs?
>
>Again, I've done a few searches in this forum, as well as looked at the manual and tutorial...I don't see anything indicating that this style of performance is possible...am wondering if I'm missing someting here.

Any help/answers/advice you can give is greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance!
>-A



Ableton's Tech Support Answer:
Hello,

indeed, this is all possible.
You might want to look into what the "back to arrangement" button does. If you override the arrangement by session actions one press of this button brings you back to what's actually shown in arrangement - without stopping.
You can also use midi learn in order to jump between locators in the arrange - this will also be quantized to a full bar and works in realtime.

If you want to do everything only in session view, you should make yourself familiar with follow actions of clips. You can define what should happen as soon as a clip plays to its end.




Ableton's Customer Care Answer:

Hi there,

Thanks for your e-mail.

Please have a look at the Follow Action functionality. It can be found here:

- Go to Session View
- Double click on a Midi or audio clip
- Now make the Launch Menu visible at the bottom of your screen by clicking on the "L" button at the bottom left of your screen. If this button is yellow, the Launch Menu is already visible.
- Follow Action can be found at the bottom of the Launch Menu.

More information on Follow Action can be found on page 158 of the manual.

With this functionality, it is possible to select which clip will be played after the current clip is finished (For example: Intro to Verse).

It is also possible to make a clip repeat itself (for a Solo) after which you could use a footswitch to start the Verse clip again.

I hope this helps. If you have any further questions, please contact us again at any time.

All the best,

Thanks affuman.

Hmmm... maybe in the future, we'll be using small, rugged netbooks with solid state drives, and this "backing-track hardware device" we're hankering for will never exist - from any manufacturer.

Does the Akai APC40 include audio outputs? If not, presumably you still need 3 boxes (laptop, controller, audio interface)?

Got a VS100 today -

Main fault for backing tracks is that anything played from the SD record comes out ONLY of 1/2 (see the block diagram) and not out of any of the other outputs. That is a huge letdown for me, as it doesn't allow the backing track to be directed to any other outputs.. Correct me if I'm horribly wrong here, of course.

It works nicely as an ACT controller for sonar though..

ORIGINAL: xen

Hi Voyageraustralia,

What is the behaviour around live set playlists? If you get a chance, I'm interested in...

• What happens when it gets to the end of a track - does it just stop? Or does it suffer from the "auto-pause" problem, whereby you need to insert a silent track, to stop it immediately playing the "next" track?
  
• Once stopped, does pressing the footpedal automatically load up the "next" track AND start playing it, or do you have to manually load up the next track first, and then press the footpedal to start it?
  
• If selecting the next track is a manual operation, how quick is it? The manual suggests it's a 3-step operation.
  

Thanks - xen

Xen,

1. At the end of a track it just stops, you press the "next" button and "play".
2. Don't know about foot pedal, didn't buy one
3. Pretty easy and quick response time

Get showplay. Been using that for years it does everything your asking plus. Very easy to use and excellent support.

Disappointing to get all the way to the end of this thread and have it be the same old, same old for use as a backing tracks playback device (close, but no cigar).

Having an all-in-one live playback unit would be AMAZING, and all they'd need to do is add the same playlist function(s) as in regular SONAR (stop at the end of the song, continue directly or delay by X seconds) and multi-track out when using the SD card (stereo only out of this unit when in SD playback mode? Cakewalk, what are you smoking?)

I checked out that ShowPlay thing. Looks like a toy. Isn't there anything that's a decent alternative?

- it has dedicated hardware buttons for "Next Project" and "Previous Project" - this sounds easier for navigating your "playlist" compared to the VS-100, which (I think) requires you to change project by opening a list of projects and then selecting one

The VS-100 does allow continuous play mode or single. If in single it will (of course) stop at the end of the track. TO start the next track does not require entering the menu, just press the >>| button to move to the nextrack (or any track) then press play.

Not a single button or footswitch solution to be sure but still fairly easy.

Guitar players need a way to use foot controllers to manipulate sonar tracks being turned off and on. If we can create a project for live use we can take the 10 patch buttons on our FCB1010's or roland FC300 or anything else and use them some how to turn tracks on and off sending sysex or whatever that would make Sonar more valueable to us. Also the bank up and down should bring other tracks into focus. This would allow us to open multiple instances of a guitar sim on a track use a master buss with delay and reverb plugin and with ten tracks each track could use a diferent sim or the same one if you did not have but one. I have a pcr500 and I would love to know how to make those pads trigger backing parts live within Sonar too, but right now being able to use this other idea is something that would be extremely appreciated and cause guitar players to buy sonar over protools 100% of the time. If we could just use it like this then I know I could convince hundreds to use sonar over protools. I'm just one guy think about how that would grow exponentially

No way I know how to do it any other way now without studying all kinds of other programs. Someone told me input echo on and off would do it but you have to send that to all the tracks you don't want feeding out to your master bus and what if you have 2 guitars and your each splitting your signal into 2 or three or 4 parts at times ala using a vg99 and a rackvaxe plus you want a dry signal to record the whole performance while your doing this. Now I agree using 16 bit plugins live is cool for most aps because live it's cd quality.

Here's another thing to consider what if I want to send out a surround sound signal and use doppler fx with my sound system having some extra speakers strategically placed in the back to do that quadraphonic effect that ELP use to do live.

Someone needs to figure out how to do this stuff and create cal scripts or a project file and create a tutorial on setting it up with links to all the FREE amp sims and midi utilities if it takes us needing them Bomes midi translator, midi ox, vsthost, effects chainer and any other free program that helps us to do this right etc.... I'd be willing to pay for it so I know others would to.

Act sells us on it's being able to structure controllers into the project to do some special things this one they need to create You would think with Roland having a stake in things and most of guitarists wanting a vg-99 and an FC300 that they would work closer with Cake on this type of thing. I think a PCR controller that has led strips like the new novation controllers would be cool to. Maybe we guitar players could get a foot controller that integrates with the transport bar as well. FCB1010's are the best selling cheapest foot controller out there so it needs to work with that one to maximize the benefit to the community and make the concept increase sales of sonar.