xen
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 24
- Joined: 2009/06/05 15:41:35
- Status: offline
Backing tracks, playlists and automation for live bands
The VS-100 is being advertised as "ideal" for small bands using backing tracks. I've been looking for a solid and reliable machine for playing backing tracks in a small band for some time... this looks like it could be just the ticket, with the added bonus of being able to feed a vocal mic and add our own FX before routing to the PA's mixer. I remember older versions of Sonar had a unique "playlist" feature for live use (not sure if new versions do), so I wonder if Cakewalk have done anything with playlists for the VS-100? I also read doncolga's questions, which are interesting and overlap some of mine - but I think my concerns are different enough to merit a separate topic. He has questions around live manipulation of the backing, whereas I have further questions around automation of the playlist. OK some specific questions: - Does the VS-100 have a concept of a "playlist"?
- When a song finishes, can the VS-100 be programmed to STOP, and not start the next song until you tell it to? This is not the same as having a pre-defined pause between songs, I'm talking about starting the next song manually when the musicians are ready. Sometimes this is known as the "auto-pause" question. You wouldn't believe some of the crazy workarounds people use just to get an iPod, CD player, or minidisc to do this.
- Can the next song in the playlist be started with a single action (e.g. one key press), so you don't need to manually select or load up the next song?
- Can the "start next song" command be externalized to a MIDI device or foot pedal?
- Can the external MIDI device or foot pedal be disabled from stopping the song, to prevent it being stopped accidentally (i.e. you would need to press Stop on the device itself if you wanted to stop it)? Stopping a song should be harder than starting it.
- As doncolga also asked, with manual intervention can the playlist easily be navigated and played out of order if circumstances require?
- Can all the settings relating to a playlist be backed up easily on to computer in a simple backup operation, or can a playlist be defined on the computer and transferred to the VS-100 as a single entity? Or does it have to be per-song?
Moving on to the mixer section... - Is it possible to associate different mixer settings with each backing track? For example - most of our songs will have a generic plate reverb on the vocals, but a few could do with specific effects like tempo-synced delay or slap-back echo, and it would be great if these effects were recalled with the song. Or can mixer automation be used to achieve the same thing, but in such a way that the automation events' timing is locked to the start of each backing track?
- A long shot... but can the vocal effects automatically disappear in the spaces between songs in the playlist? In a live setting, vocal effects are normally pulled down between songs - otherwise it sounds odd when the vocalist talks to the audience through some weird effect left over from the previous song. Ideally, you could define a specific mixer setting (with no effects), which the machine automatically recalls in the spaces BETWEEN songs.
With regards to the last two points - I guess what I'm saying is, responsibility for vocal effects normally resides with a FOH sound person. Moving SOME of that responsibility on to the stage could be a good thing, because it puts the musicians more in control of their own sound. But in order to work well, I think a high degree of automation must be available. It doesn't look good if, at the end of each song, you need to dive over to a box and a) press stop before the next song starts, and b) pull down the vocal effects so the vocalist can talk, and c) prep the next song. You want to keep the audience's attention on the live elements, not the backing elements. Currently, we don't need a separate click feed to headphones because the drums/percussion are in the backing, but so many other bands are crying out for this, it would be amazing if it was overlooked. If Cakewalk can deliver in these areas, I for one will be eternally grateful! If not, I guess I'll just have to keep looking... As someone else said, there is a gap in the market, and I don't know if the VS-100 fills it.
post edited by xen - 2009/06/06 07:09:19
|
xen
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 24
- Joined: 2009/06/05 15:41:35
- Status: offline
RE: Backing tracks, playlists and automation for live bands
2009/06/07 07:02:08
(permalink)
Ok, I've managed to find the VS-100 manual and read through it. Before I start saying anything negative, let me just say this is a step in the right direction for small bands using backing tracks in live performance: it's a small, rugged, compact device with good quality DACs, solid-state storage for the WAV files and easy transfer to/from computer. But IMO to earn the tag "ideal" for small bands using backing tracks live, a lot more needs to be done. On to the details.... - Looking at set management, far from an actual playlist what we seem to get is a "root folder" full of WAV files, presumably displayed in alphabetical order. You could force an ordering by naming convention e.g. "01_songname.wav" etc, but this smacks of a workaround - and adding a new song to the list would mean renaming all the later ones... ouch! - Presumably at the end of song, the machine stops (good), but you need to manually select the next song before pressing play (bad). It's hard to tell from the manual, but selecting the next song sounds like a 2 or 3 step operation which can't be externalized to a MIDI device or foot pedal, although (once selected) maybe starting it can be externalized. I guess this could be lived with as it's no worse than many of the other options around at the moment. Summary - to work well as a backing track machine, some thought needs to be given to the workflow of transitioning from one song to the next, and how this can be done easily in a dark and noisy environment while playing another instrument at the same time. So far, I see little evidence of Cakewalk having thought about this. Now on to the mixer section... Before addressing this, let's consider the actual requirements of an on-stage mixer for small bands playing backing tracks. - Bear in mind even the smallest live venues usually have their own little mixer attached to the PA, and I would think responsibility for the overall mix generally lies there, not on stage. By that I mean the balance between the main parts (e.g. backing track vs. vocals, etc), EQ on each part, overall volume, preventing feedback and so on, is ideally done on a FOH mixer where things can be heard as the audience is hearing them. - So, when do you need a mixer on stage? Two examples I can think of - a keyboard player or similar mixing different devices with their own little on-stage mixer, or a vocalist needing song-specific effects added to vocals. I am sure there are others, but you get the idea. In all these cases, you generally still want to route these main parts to the FOH mixer on a separate channels (and separate to the backing track if there is one). You don't want to make an on-stage mixing device responsible for the overall mix of the band. So anyway, after reading the manual - and bearing these actual use cases in mind - my concerns are: - It's not clear from the manual if you can route the vocals (with effects) to a separate output to the backing track. Without this, the mixer section is useless because you're forcing the on-stage mixer to be responsible for the entire mix. What if a FOH sound person decides the vocals are too quiet or the backing track doesn't have enough bass? They can't do anything. - I can't find any mention of saving and recalling mixer settings, let alone associating a mixer setting with a song. For any song-specific effects, you obviously need a fast and efficient way of recalling the effect when the song changes. - There is no mention of delay, only reverb, EQ and compression. This is a shame because the most common "song-specific" vocal effect I would (occasionally) want to apply is delay, and in this case the length of the delay is song-specific. If the mixer can utilize the extra outputs, then maybe what I could do is plug the vocal mic into the VS-100's mic pre-amp, and route that via a separate output to an external multi-effects unit - which has the abiltiy to save and recall settings - and run the effects unit in Insert mode (with an appropriate wet/dry mix), feeding straight to the FOH mixer as a "vocal" feed. Independently of this, I could use the VS-100's main outputs as the "backing track" feed. Even if this were possible, when the songs change I would need to change the track on the VS-100 and (potentially) change the effect on the multi-effects unit as well. This is quite a lot to do between songs. If it's not possible, then you're looking at buying the VS-100 JUST for WAV playback, and not even using the on-board mixer, extra outputs, and mic pre-amps - to say nothing of motorized faders etc. And that, in a nutshell, is why I think the VS-100 is not yet the "ideal" unit for small bands using backing tracks But it may be closer than the competition (even if for no other reason than there is hardly any competition).
post edited by xen - 2009/06/07 07:28:38
|
techead
Max Output Level: -31.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 4353
- Joined: 2004/01/24 08:40:20
- Location: Macomb, IL, USA
- Status: offline
RE: Backing tracks, playlists and automation for live bands
2009/06/07 07:14:07
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: xen
- Looking at set management, far from an actual playlist what we seem to get is a "root folder" full of WAV files, presumably displayed in alphabetical order. You could force an ordering by naming convention e.g. "01_songname.wav" etc, but this smacks of a workaround - and adding a new song to the list would mean renaming all the later ones... ouch!
The work around to avoid renaming all songs when one is later added to the middle of the "set list" is to number them incrementally rather than consecutively. For example, "10_songname.wav, 20_songname.wav, 30_songname.wav". Now up to 9 additional songs can be placed between the first and second song without renaming anything.
|
xen
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 24
- Joined: 2009/06/05 15:41:35
- Status: offline
RE: Backing tracks, playlists and automation for live bands
2009/06/07 07:49:00
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: techead
The work around to avoid renaming all songs when one is later added to the middle of the "set list" is to number them incrementally rather than consecutively. For example, "10_songname.wav, 20_songname.wav, 30_songname.wav". Now up to 9 additional songs can be placed between the first and second song without renaming anything.
Well, yes there is that... Sounds like you've programmed in BASIC at some point, lol... 
post edited by xen - 2009/06/07 08:00:17
|
SongCraft
Max Output Level: -36 dBFS
- Total Posts : 3902
- Joined: 2007/09/19 17:54:46
- Status: offline
RE: Backing tracks, playlists and automation for live bands
2009/06/07 08:43:21
(permalink)
I also looked at this (V-Studio) as backing playback with a band for LIVE performance..... unfortunately there are essential key features missing. CW/Roland, for crying out loud there needs to be a better solution to get out of the freaking box (DAW) so that musicians can finally take their hard work (music production created in SONAR) for 'on stage' (live playback).... read on..... That said!... now I'll point out some key features required: > Easy transfer of SONAR projects (with better options) to hardware format (V-Live-Performer) > Click-Track with flexible options such as count-in measures/beats, tempo, separate click output. > Playlist with continuous play. Transport controls + optional 'on the fly reorder' > Option for 'Backup' h/drive (add additional h/drive(s) in case the first drive fails. > Various versions of V-Live-Performer hardware ranging from very cheap little 4 track (audio only for less then $500) with integrated mixer, onto other more powerful versions that includes rackmount + separate mixer console.... the rackmount includes 128 voice internal hardware sampler that accepts transfer/conversion of SONAR project files (that contain softsynths - midi) options to choose several (not all) softsynths from SONAR to be used as Midi playback via controllers such as keyboards and trigger pads/drum kit for LIVE performance, along with auto-patch (softsynth) setups in accordance with the playlist, this includes FX's. <><> Main priority is.... to try and 'faithfully' reproduce original SONAR projects for LIVE performance using portable hardware format with options for backup h/drive(s) a quick n easy access panel to add or replace standard PC h/drive(s).
post edited by SongCraft - 2009/06/07 08:55:46
|
xen
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 24
- Joined: 2009/06/05 15:41:35
- Status: offline
RE: Backing tracks, playlists and automation for live bands
2009/06/07 09:39:42
(permalink)
Yes, I agree with all that - but with one proviso: don't restrict it to one DAW (Sonar) unless you have to. There is a huge unfilled market for a solid, reliable hardware-only backing track machine, regardless of which DAW the music was made on. What I'm saying is I think Cakewalk are on the right track by making DAW-specific features of the VS-100 optional, and keeping the core features open to all. For what it's worth, I use Apple Logic but I still need a good hardware device for playing backing tracks. Many of the live backing-track requirements could be met by simply improving workflow and basic mixing functionality of something like the VS-100. If you want to manually manipulate soft-synth parameters in real-time while they're being played from a MIDI part, then you probably need, as you say, a DAW in the box on which you can load your "project". But then I think you might be better off with a laptop, no? And if you want to change the ordering of the song while it's playing, compose on the fly etc, then don't you need something designed specially for that, like Ableton Live? For those that just need a straight-forward "backing track" player, an audio-only format like WAV is ideal. Remember for live use, it pays to keep things as simple as possible To provide the additional mixes with click tracks / count-ins that so many bands need, the machine could support multi-channel WAV files (don't know why Cakewalk missed this). If you want to play software instruments loaded onto a hardware device, again this could be supported in a DAW-agnostic way by providing a "container" for VST or AudioUnit plugins, which can be triggered in realtime by a keyboard/MIDI controller. Maybe something that works in a similar way to Steinberg V-Stack or Apple MainStage, but in a hardware device. I think I have seen such a thing but can't remember where now. Also there could be licensing/compatibility issues with loading all your projects' plugins on to a hardware device.
|
SongCraft
Max Output Level: -36 dBFS
- Total Posts : 3902
- Joined: 2007/09/19 17:54:46
- Status: offline
RE: Backing tracks, playlists and automation for live bands
2009/06/07 11:42:47
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: xen
Yes, I agree with all that - but with one proviso: don't restrict it to one DAW (Sonar) unless you have to. There is a huge unfilled market for a solid, reliable hardware-only backing track machine, regardless of which DAW the music was made on.
What I'm saying is I think Cakewalk are on the right track by making DAW-specific features of the VS-100 optional, and keeping the core features open to all.
YES! Absolutely! I already knew that CW/Roland was on the right direction in that regard, and I also agree there would be a HUGE demand for a portable hardware playback unit such as I suggested (V-Live-Performer) specifically designed for on stage use as explain in my previous post :-) As for using a laptop? for playing back midi live on stage?, you know there are hardware VST-host already available, therefor why can't CW/Roland integrate that into what I already suggested (V-Live-Performer - Audio+Midi Sampler version)? ... but take that concept further by being able to use more than one midi controller simultaneously without fear of over-stressing ones laptop {read-on} Seriously though, my idea is better than using a laptop because for live use those synths only need be transferred/converted from 24.bit to 16.bit/44.1 (CD quality) VSTi and during bounce (transfer) options to included FX thus darn good enough for live use a lot less CPU intensive!!! And NO, there would not be an issue with licensing to use those VSTi's since we have the right to media-playback, the rights to use those VSTi's for public performance.
|
voyageraustralia
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 25
- Joined: 2007/07/08 08:41:02
- Status: offline
RE: Backing tracks, playlists and automation for live bands
2009/06/07 23:19:09
(permalink)
Xen and others
I'm tossing up between the V100 and the Korg D888. Why? Because the D888 can play stereo backing PLUS a click track routed to the drummer's headphones. If the V100 can do this, then sign me up. If not, then it's still just Click panned LEFT Backing track panned RIGHT, as always!
Did the manual say anything about internal metronomes? Ie is it possible to sync the metronome to time signatures in the DAW session?
I know so many bands who use backing tracks and would love to have stereo PLUS click. Looks like the D888 is the only option for that at the moment..
*sigh*
EDIROL FA-66, SONAR 8, REASON 4, KORG M50 (endorsed), KORG TRITON, LEXICON MX300, DBX 376, NOVATION XIOSYNTH
|
xen
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 24
- Joined: 2009/06/05 15:41:35
- Status: offline
RE: Backing tracks, playlists and automation for live bands
2009/06/08 03:25:06
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: voyageraustralia
Did the manual say anything about internal metronomes? Ie is it possible to sync the metronome to time signatures in the DAW session?
As far as I understand, if there was a computer attached to the VS-100, then you could utilize all 6 outputs of the VS-100 and it should be possible to output a click from the DAW to one of those outputs. But if you are using the VS-100 standalone (which is what this is all about, right?), then there is no DAW session, there is just a stereo WAV file. I would not want to retrospectively sync a click to a WAV file. It sounds like the VS-100's internal metronome is designed for recording, not playback.
|
voyageraustralia
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 25
- Joined: 2007/07/08 08:41:02
- Status: offline
RE: Backing tracks, playlists and automation for live bands
2009/06/08 03:46:38
(permalink)
I would not want to retrospectively sync a click to a WAV file. Neither would I.. Looks like we're out of luck then. Re playlists though, couldn't you import all your songs into a DAW session and then insert markers on the Vstudio? You can jump from marker to marker quite easily.... I know it's "roundabout" but it should work..
EDIROL FA-66, SONAR 8, REASON 4, KORG M50 (endorsed), KORG TRITON, LEXICON MX300, DBX 376, NOVATION XIOSYNTH
|
xen
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 24
- Joined: 2009/06/05 15:41:35
- Status: offline
RE: Backing tracks, playlists and automation for live bands
2009/06/08 13:39:32
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: voyageraustralia
Neither would I.. Looks like we're out of luck then.
Thinking about it, I don't think you would want to rely on a built-in click from the hardware device anyway, even if it were possible. It is very limiting: You can't add your own count-ins or cues, you can't choose any arbitrary click sound (some drummers are very particular about this), you can't add percussion to the click to help the drummer groove along, and it may be hard to ensure the click finishes exactly when the song finishes. See this article for some ideas on what makes a good click. Also, getting the tempo map from the project into the hardware device would be a DAW-specific operation, and any tempo changes would need to be preserved. A far better solution, IMO, is to generate the click track in your DAW as a separate audio channel. Then it can contain as much custom stuff (count-ins, cues, percussion etc) as you want. This is why I've been suggesting that in a device like the VS-100, the best way to support an additional click track would be if Cakewalk allowed multi-channel WAV files. The beauty of this approach is that it's DAW-agnostic, and once it's on the hardware device, simpler (and therefore more reliable on-stage). Generating a multi-channel WAV should be straightforward, if your DAW supports Surround.
|
xen
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 24
- Joined: 2009/06/05 15:41:35
- Status: offline
RE: Backing tracks, playlists and automation for live bands
2009/06/08 13:52:10
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: voyageraustralia
Re playlists though, couldn't you import all your songs into a DAW session and then insert markers on the Vstudio? You can jump from marker to marker quite easily.... I know it's "roundabout" but it should work..
Do you mean, put all your songs in one long WAV file, and insert markers at the start of each song in the VS-100? The problem with this is it re-introduces the auto-pause problem that you get with iPods and CD/Minidisc/DAT players: when a song finishes, it will start playing the next song automatically, so you need pauses between songs and "jump to next marker" to find the next song, which is rather clunky. Additionally, the "jump to next maker" command probably can't externalized to a MIDI device or foot pedal anyway - no more than the operation to locate a different WAV file can. So I think you're better off putting the songs in separate WAV files and locating them manually.
|
voyageraustralia
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 25
- Joined: 2007/07/08 08:41:02
- Status: offline
RE: Backing tracks, playlists and automation for live bands
2009/06/08 22:42:22
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: xen
This is why I've been suggesting that in a device like the VS-100, the best way to support an additional click track would be if Cakewalk allowed multi-channel WAV files.
That would indeed be favourable, but you gotta be careful with click bleeds etc. The Korg D888 is pretty much the only thing that does this at the moment, but again, it's pretty bulky. Wouldn't it be nice if you could dump a stereo backing wav onto the V-studio channels 1&2, then a click and mono backing track wav to channels 3&4, routed to the drummer!
EDIROL FA-66, SONAR 8, REASON 4, KORG M50 (endorsed), KORG TRITON, LEXICON MX300, DBX 376, NOVATION XIOSYNTH
|
Ludvig
Max Output Level: -85 dBFS
- Total Posts : 272
- Joined: 2004/06/07 04:25:54
- Location: Stockholm, Sweden
- Status: offline
RE: Backing tracks, playlists and automation for live bands
2009/06/18 04:59:16
(permalink)
Hey guys! I would love to have this aspect of the VS-100 evolved aswell. The machine I'm using at the moment is the Edirol R-44 wich is not at all intended for this use but works ok. It can stream 4 mono or 2 stereo wavefiles from a SDHC-card with no loading time. It also got 4 separate outputs so I can send stereo to the PA and stereo to the drummers headphones. It doesn't have any playlist so I have to use the alphabetic workaround. The concept is very easy. Every song has it's own folder, folder name=song name. In every folder you put wave-files named 1.wav and 2.wav. These go to the first and second stereo output pairs. If you wanna use four separate mono then instead use four mono wave-files called 1.wav, 2.wav, 3.wav and 4.wav. Cons: Not possible to remote control via MIDI No MIDI output Best Regards Ludvig
post edited by Ludvig - 2009/06/18 05:10:30
Intel Core i7 3770K | ASRock Z77 | 16GB Corsair Vengeance 1600MHz | ATI Radeon HD6450 PCI-E | 30" @ 2560 x 1600 | 2x120GB Intel 330 SSD's | 5TB HD's | Win 8.1 Pro 64-bit | SONAR Platinum Everett | All PC-modules | Octa-Capture | Studio-Capture | VS-700 |
|
voyageraustralia
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 25
- Joined: 2007/07/08 08:41:02
- Status: offline
RE: Backing tracks, playlists and automation for live bands
2009/06/19 03:10:55
(permalink)
Ludvig
That sounds really good.
So you can just name the wav files as you mentioned (1, 2 3, 4), and drag them onto the SD card?
Is there any way of controlling the line out levels?
This little thing actually sounds REALLY good! I've never seen it actuallym seems to have slipped under the radar!
D
EDIROL FA-66, SONAR 8, REASON 4, KORG M50 (endorsed), KORG TRITON, LEXICON MX300, DBX 376, NOVATION XIOSYNTH
|
Ludvig
Max Output Level: -85 dBFS
- Total Posts : 272
- Joined: 2004/06/07 04:25:54
- Location: Stockholm, Sweden
- Status: offline
RE: Backing tracks, playlists and automation for live bands
2009/06/21 03:20:25
(permalink)
So you can just name the wav files as you mentioned (1, 2 3, 4), and drag them onto the SD card? Yes. And put them in a folder with the songs name. Or more correct SONGNAME.PRJ Is there any way of controlling the line out levels? No, you have to use a mixer for that. But, I do think that the VS-100 could do this just as fine with an software upgrade. The technology is there already, it already is capable of streaming two wave-files in sync from the SDHC-Card and it got separate outputs. All we need is software. Best Regards Ludvig
Intel Core i7 3770K | ASRock Z77 | 16GB Corsair Vengeance 1600MHz | ATI Radeon HD6450 PCI-E | 30" @ 2560 x 1600 | 2x120GB Intel 330 SSD's | 5TB HD's | Win 8.1 Pro 64-bit | SONAR Platinum Everett | All PC-modules | Octa-Capture | Studio-Capture | VS-700 |
|
xen
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 24
- Joined: 2009/06/05 15:41:35
- Status: offline
RE: Backing tracks, playlists and automation for live bands
2009/06/21 06:09:21
(permalink)
Thanks Ludvig, that looks really interesting!
A few observations after looking at the manual for the R-44:
- interestingly, the manual says the R-44 supports loading a single 4-channel WAV file (as an alternative to 2 stereo or 4 mono files), with each channel still routed to a separate output of course
- it has dedicated hardware buttons for "Next Project" and "Previous Project" - this sounds easier for navigating your "playlist" compared to the VS-100, which (I think) requires you to change project by opening a list of projects and then selecting one
- presumably there's no way to externalize the Play operation to a foot pedal
- sounds like it's not possible to use the built-in Mic pre-amps to plug a live mic in and route it to a specific output, in order to add song-specific effects to live vocals
Like the VS-100, it seems the R-44 was designed more with recording in mind, rather than live playback
Maybe I could use it in conjunction with a small mixer/effects unit, in order to achieve song-specific vocal effects, whilst still supplying the vocals and backing tracks on separate channels to a FOH mixing desk. That would also give me the alternative of doing the whole mix for situations where there is no FOH mixing desk.
On the plus side it looks very rugged and professional. But it is not cheap - £640 in the UK.
|
affuman
Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
- Total Posts : 53
- Joined: 2006/07/25 21:03:37
- Status: offline
RE: Backing tracks, playlists and automation for live bands
2009/06/21 08:56:38
(permalink)
I agree 150% with Xen...there is a huge market out there for the company that can provide a quality method of delivering backing tracks for the working (or even pseudo-working) musician. I've been waiting for years...and if I had the tech know-how, I would have done it myself (and probably wouldn't have to work anymore). I really hope the guys from Cakewalk are reading this... Think of situation most gigging musicians are in...many clubs don't pay enough to justify a full band, and even if they did, sometimes band dynamics get in the way of developing that consistent, tight sound due to the revolving door of personnel. The aspiring star, usually a single person or duo, must settle for a less than stellar performance...and will eventually get beaten out at the venue by a DJ. Cakewalk: please approach this solution from the mindset of the single musician who is reasonably adept at MIDI, but is NOT a keyboardist or a computer geek! His/her main focus is to get in front of the crowd, keep them entertained, while simultaneously managing the on-stage performance (and in a lot of cases, the FOH sound). Oh, by the way, he's also playing an instrument that requires two hands, like sax or guitar. What would such a person need? At the very least, a standalone, hardware machine that can load a set of songs...each song would be a 'bounced to tracks' SONAR project, consisting of multiple tracks accepting .wav or MIDI files (background vocals, string parts, rhythm tracks, click, etc). The machine would have multiple audio outputs (8 would be better, but I'd settle for 6), so the musician can route each track to an external mixer. It would be REALLY nice if the machine had multiple MIDI outs as well to drive keyboards and drum machines. From the SONAR project standpoint, the musician could use this to automatically load and control per-song settings for multiple keyboards/machines, and keep the vibe of the performance going. In the project, the user would be able to set up markers at different parts of the song beforehand (head, verse 1, chorus 1, verse 2, alt chorus, vamp, ending, etc). During playback, the user would be able to loop between markers, or jump to any one of the markers on the fly, like in Live or an MPC...AND he would be able to do so via either a foot controller or physical or on-screen buttons. Why is this necessary? So the musician/band can actually perform for the crowd! What if there's a great solo going on that you want to extend? What if the crowd suddenly comes out onto the dance floor in the mddle of the song, and you need to extend it? Finally, the machine's display would have a separate page listing all of the songs/projects loaded in the set, AND access to all of the other songs loaded on the hard drive...allowing the user to load the next song while the current one is playing. This will finally give the musician the ability to read and respond to the audience's mood, and entertain...instead of just play. And Xen's point of an autostop or autopause is KEY...it looks really goofy having to position yourself near the end of a song and lean over to stop it from going into the next one! The ability to use a footswitch to do this is essential. And, as long as I'm dreaming...what would REALLY, REALLY, REALLY be cool would be to incorporate some small mixing capabilities into the machine...at least the ability to mute or solo individual tracks. This would let the musician "break it down" if he wanted to in certain parts of the song. This feature also vastly increases the machine's usefulness for when you have a gig where one or more of the pre-recorded tracks is replaced by another musician who is sitting in for that one gig. I suggested approaching this solution from the standpoint of a solo or duo act because, if you satisfy their needs, then you'll also satisfy the needs of larger groups. You really should assume that the user does not play a chorded instrument...these folks are in the greatest need of such a product. As a sax player (I have access to all kinds of smaller gigs, but require backing music for 95% of them), I can personally attest to that! I would be more than happy to consult with you on the development of such a machine...I know I personally would pay quite a bit to own something that would let me accept 10x the gigs I'm doing now, and think a lot of other readers on this forum would do the same, not to mention the countless scores of musicians out there who wish for such a capability. If you'd like my help, please PM me...would really like to see this happen. Thanks for listening to my long rant... -Chris
post edited by affuman - 2009/06/21 09:09:56
|
Ludvig
Max Output Level: -85 dBFS
- Total Posts : 272
- Joined: 2004/06/07 04:25:54
- Location: Stockholm, Sweden
- Status: offline
RE: Backing tracks, playlists and automation for live bands
2009/06/22 04:52:29
(permalink)
XEN: Your observations are correct. And yes, the R-44 was designed for recording. Not performance. This is just a workaround. Best Regards Ludvig
post edited by Ludvig - 2009/06/22 05:09:07
Intel Core i7 3770K | ASRock Z77 | 16GB Corsair Vengeance 1600MHz | ATI Radeon HD6450 PCI-E | 30" @ 2560 x 1600 | 2x120GB Intel 330 SSD's | 5TB HD's | Win 8.1 Pro 64-bit | SONAR Platinum Everett | All PC-modules | Octa-Capture | Studio-Capture | VS-700 |
|
Ludvig
Max Output Level: -85 dBFS
- Total Posts : 272
- Joined: 2004/06/07 04:25:54
- Location: Stockholm, Sweden
- Status: offline
RE: Backing tracks, playlists and automation for live bands
2009/06/22 04:57:37
(permalink)
AFFUMAN: I agree to all of your ideas. They are the same as my wishes. For me a key point is to be able to sync audio and MIDI. That way the light rig could be automated, guitar and/or vocal fx could be changed using program change commands ... Another key point is not to give this imaginary product to much karaoke-feeling. It must be intended for real, live use. Rugged in it's construction and with the right amount of large and easy-to-use buttons. I know this could be done. Keeping my fingers crossed. Best Regards Ludvig
post edited by Ludvig - 2009/06/22 05:09:24
Intel Core i7 3770K | ASRock Z77 | 16GB Corsair Vengeance 1600MHz | ATI Radeon HD6450 PCI-E | 30" @ 2560 x 1600 | 2x120GB Intel 330 SSD's | 5TB HD's | Win 8.1 Pro 64-bit | SONAR Platinum Everett | All PC-modules | Octa-Capture | Studio-Capture | VS-700 |
|
SongCraft
Max Output Level: -36 dBFS
- Total Posts : 3902
- Joined: 2007/09/19 17:54:46
- Status: offline
RE: Backing tracks, playlists and automation for live bands
2009/06/22 05:50:07
(permalink)
affuman Did you miss my post? (see copy/quote herein) You missed the important key requirements for professional use such as; . Sync, metronome separate click track (output) with various options. This is what's missing from 99.9% of all hardware recorders which renders them almost utterly freaking USELESS, much like the V-Studio series which is still thinking inside the box (DAW) whereas I'm sure a lot of musicians want to get out of the box (DAW) and onto the stage to perform LIVE!!!!.  I've performed in Australia at major venues successfully using Midi Hardware as backing along with click-track feed to on-stage monitoring ('I' devised a customized solution for separate click-track output on my setup) it worked flawlessly and kept the whole band in perfect sync. I am sick to death of having to cart around heavy hardware where needed and to the venue risking theft between sound-check and lug-in/out deadlines. My idea for a 'V-Live-Performer' (small portable hardware) that can be setup very quickly, this is something I think is LONG OVERDUE!!!! Just checked out the Cakewalk 'Feature Request' form and guess what? NO option for V-Studio. If Cakewalk/Roland isn't listening to their customers then too bad, eventually a competitor will be the first to come out with the solution to fill that HUGE void.... playback with sync, options for click-track (metronome) and midi controllers options along with other features explained in my previous post (quoted herein). I sure hope Cakewalk/Roland is listening!! ORIGINAL: SongCraft
I also looked at this (V-Studio) as backing playback with a band for LIVE performance..... unfortunately there are essential key features missing. CW/Roland, for crying out loud there needs to be a better solution to get out of the freaking box (DAW) so that musicians can finally take their hard work (music production created in SONAR) for 'on stage' (live playback).... read on.....
That said!... now I'll point out some key features required:
> Easy transfer of SONAR projects (with better options) to hardware format (V-Live-Performer)
> Click-Track with flexible options such as count-in measures/beats, tempo, separate click output.
> Playlist with continuous play. Transport controls + optional 'on the fly reorder'
> Option for 'Backup' h/drive (add additional h/drive(s) in case the first drive fails.
> Various versions of V-Live-Performer hardware ranging from very cheap little 4 track (audio only for less then $500) with integrated mixer, onto other more powerful versions that includes rackmount + separate mixer console.... the rackmount includes 128 voice internal hardware sampler that accepts transfer/conversion of SONAR project files (that contain softsynths - midi) options to choose several (not all) softsynths from SONAR to be used as Midi playback via controllers such as keyboards and trigger pads/drum kit for LIVE performance, along with auto-patch (softsynth) setups in accordance with the playlist, this includes FX's. <><> Main priority is.... to try and 'faithfully' reproduce original SONAR projects for LIVE performance using portable hardware format with options for backup h/drive(s) a quick n easy access panel to add or replace standard PC h/drive(s).
Late Edit: Oh and I seriously don't have the time to include EVERY obvious detail such as... (1): uh duhhuurr will it work with other DAW's? (2):will it have various options for playback? (1):NO, just SONAR because it's the only DAW on the planet!! And (2):NO options for playback it will only play from start to end of a 3 hour show at full volume without any control and without any options to STOP, PAUSE or RE-ORDER!!! *DUH* *I'm in a BAD mood* because I get the feeling Cakewalk/Roland will miss key important features again in their next hardware/software releases but to be fair I'll wait and see what happens. IMHO, I won't be spending my money on V-Studio, my money would be better spent on more important things.
post edited by SongCraft - 2009/06/22 06:34:36
|
affuman
Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
- Total Posts : 53
- Joined: 2006/07/25 21:03:37
- Status: offline
RE: Backing tracks, playlists and automation for live bands
2009/06/23 21:45:39
(permalink)
Ludvig and Soundcraft,
Yes...you're right! I typed my original post as my baby daughter was sleeping...she woke up and I had to hurry up.
SC: Yes, I did see your original post, and saw the need for a separate click track output. Personally, I was thinking that this could be addressed with multiple outputs to the main mixing system...one could route a click to the appropriate monitors/headphones. What I didn't even consider wishing for (not sure of the technology exists) is the ability to catch the drummer's tempo (from the hi hat? snare?) when necessary and syncing audio/midi. Maybe next decade.
Me, personally, am not worried too much about portability to/from other DAWs since I'm a somewhat dedicated Cakewalk user. I’m also looking at it from a business sense...if Cakewalk can extract the maximum profit by tying it to their proprietary system, then they might be more likely to invest in its production. I don't care...I'd just like to have the product.
Eventually...SOMEONE will make it, and as soon as they do, I will jump ship like it was on fire. I imagine you and countless other gigging musicians will do the same! Again, I REALLY hope someone from Cakewalk is watching this thread!
Ludvig: You're right on point...the object is to make a rugged piece of machinery for real musicians, who are likely a little buzzed, and most definitely are in a dark corner somewhere. And trying to engage a crowd and catch the attention of that special someone. Hell, they might even be trying to play and improvise music! Of course, large, easy to understand buttons are a must. As a sax player, I'd really also like to have an optional footswitch/pedal board...so much so, that I would gladly pay extra for it. I'm sure guitarists, and even vocalists and keyboardists would feel the same.
I also agree with your point of using this imaginary product as the nerve center for setting up all of the keyboards/drum machines/lighting for the next song using MIDI. I tried to make that point in my original post...it also is a must have. My thought process is, if they can achieve that for the solo/duo musician, it should be a cinch to expand it for the larger band.
That's also where Cakewalk could stand to gain financially from tying this imaginary product to SONAR. Its easy for the average user to set all of this up in SONAR, as well as the audio and MIDI files, and import it into our new machine. That would also take care of the audio/MIDI synching solution you mentioned. As a workarouund, the user could always render MIDI playback files to audio, although memory capabilities (and probably dependability)would suffer as a result.
It's sad...it seems like the DAW software companies are happy catering to the pro-audio and prosumer markets, but have completely ignored the working musician market. I really don't know what the backgrounds of the powers-that-be are, but if they've ever tried to make a living as a gigging artist, then I'd hope they'd be able to tap into the vast potential out there. I can't imagine a band, be it solo, duo, or full up touring R&B with horns and percussion, that wouldn't want a product like this!
OK...off the soap box.
-A
|
affuman
Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
- Total Posts : 53
- Joined: 2006/07/25 21:03:37
- Status: offline
RE: Backing tracks, playlists and automation for live bands
2009/06/23 21:54:03
(permalink)
Soundcraft,
Since, for the moment we warriors have to do our own workaround, would you mid explaining how you manage a click track today? The only way I can think of...today...is to bring a laptop with an audio interface, and set up various songs in the Playlist. Like you said, that's a lot of work and expense to hook up and maintain. I have the necessary gear to do it in my studio, but it's not something I'd like to take out on the road...
|
SongCraft
Max Output Level: -36 dBFS
- Total Posts : 3902
- Joined: 2007/09/19 17:54:46
- Status: offline
RE: Backing tracks, playlists and automation for live bands
2009/06/23 23:06:22
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: affuman
Soundcraft,
Since, for the moment we warriors have to do our own workaround, would you mid explaining how you manage a click track today? The only way I can think of...today...is to bring a laptop with an audio interface, and set up various songs in the Playlist. Like you said, that's a lot of work and expense to hook up and maintain. I have the necessary gear to do it in my studio, but it's not something I'd like to take out on the road...
Using a midi sequencer/keyboard (Ensoniq), a hole was drilled for an additional 1/4" jack along with internal audio/rewired to that additional 1/4" (click-output), from there it was very easy to control (options for metronome/click) routed to that new additional separate click-track for on-stage monitoring. Load times between songs was much faster than usual because I kept it to a minimum for backing, the rest was done live by the band (Drummer, Bassist, Guitarist, lead vocals, two backing vocalists, keyboardist). I don't know if Roland service could do this sort of customization for the V-Studio, if so? then that would be cool. Problem for me and most music producers is that... nowadays almost all instrument are produced in software format VSTi/DXi), all my current projects rarely use hardware synths/keyboards, they're dated and would not be able to reproduce the sounds I use nowadays. Yes! I hope Cakewalk is reading this thread! Our feedback is important to Cakewalk/Roland growth, there can be no doubt there would be a huge demand for a properly thought-out 'playback' hardware unit. It could come in various formats/models to suit most budgets start from a basic 4 track (4x4 i/o audio only + integrated mixer + additional click-track separate out with options for count-in and option for foot-switch = pause/continue), right up to a 24 trk 24x24 i/o with internal integrated sampler that can handle multiple controllers (keyboards, midi drum pads/kit), all sounds derived from the project including softsynths can be converted to an optimized internal sampler) along with various additional options, therefor in keeping faithful to the original DAW projects but also including the ability to transpose and/or change tempo easily, along with other well thought-out options such as more options for foot-switches, remotes and on-the-fly re-order (song playlist), and quick access panel for servicing internal h/drive(s) much like accessing a PC for adding or replacing h/drives. An additional h/drive could also serve as a safety 'backup' drive that can be quickly engaged! As they say in the music biz, the show must go on :-)
|
pimpleburger
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14
- Joined: 2009/02/09 21:28:23
- Status: offline
RE: Backing tracks, playlists and automation for live bands
2009/06/25 04:01:38
(permalink)
Maybe some of these requests are beyond what is easy to incorporate into the current V-Studio 100 machine. Roland has developed 4 track onto SD card technology already with their Edirol field recorders such as the R-44 so they can incorporate such things without too much development..
If you simpley put a couple of minutes silence at the end of your tracks or create a silent track to go in between your songs then all you'll need to do is press next with your footpedal.
The next step up really does seem to be taking your laptop to the gig in which case the V Studio 100 will work fine. For improvising with the form of the song and extending sections you'd be better off using Ableton Live which can also respond to tap tempo by the way. I used to use this and next and previous commands from my Roland SPDs whilst drumming.
I want the V-Studio 100 to be independent of the computer in case of computer failure or if I can't be bothered with taking a load of equipment to a gig then this product will meet my needs. The V-Studio 100 is already a rugged piece. I wouldn't want it made any bigger if Cakewalk/Roland will incorporate all this requested functionality.
Peace,
Pimpleburger
I think midi hardware synths and drum machines should be bounced down to audio.
|
xen
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 24
- Joined: 2009/06/05 15:41:35
- Status: offline
RE: Backing tracks, playlists and automation for live bands
2009/06/25 15:25:49
(permalink)
additional click-track separate out with options for count-in SongCraft, did you see my post above, about why I think a dedicated click generated by the hardware is much less flexible, compared to generating a click yourself in your DAW and exporting it as an additional channel in your backing (e.g. as additional WAV channels)? Not sure why you would want to go with the limitations of a generated click in a live situation.
|
xen
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 24
- Joined: 2009/06/05 15:41:35
- Status: offline
RE: Backing tracks, playlists and automation for live bands
2009/06/25 15:37:04
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: pimpleburger
Maybe some of these requests are beyond what is easy to incorporate into the current V-Studio 100 machine. Roland has developed 4 track onto SD card technology already with their Edirol field recorders such as the R-44 so they can incorporate such things without too much development..
If you simpley put a couple of minutes silence at the end of your tracks or create a silent track to go in between your songs then all you'll need to do is press next with your footpedal. Pimpleburger, regarding the silent track/foot-pedal operation - where are you getting this information from? As far as I was concerned, it was an unanswered question whether the VS-100 stops at the end of a track, or starts playing the "next" track automatically (making a silent track necessary) - indeed, whether it has any concept of "next" or whether the footpedal just starts/stops the currently loaded track rather than loading up the "next" track before playing it. The manual certainly isn't clear, and no-one from Cakewalk has stepped in to answer these questions. ORIGINAL: pimpleburger
The next step up really does seem to be taking your laptop to the gig in which case the V Studio 100 will work fine. For improvising with the form of the song and extending sections you'd be better off using Ableton Live which can also respond to tap tempo by the way. I used to use this and next and previous commands from my Roland SPDs whilst drumming.
Yep, I agree that it makes sense to separate out the "basic" backing track functionality (playlists, live workflow, click tracks), from the "advanced" stuff (MIDI, channel muting, song section re-ordering, virtual instruments etc) where you start stepping into Ableton Live territory. The "basic" requirement could be met with something physically the size of the VS-100, and is clearly DAW-agnostic, if done properly. In the context of this discussion I'm more interested in the "basic" functionality, but only because I don't use Sonar. If some of the "advanced" stuff could be done in a hardware device in a DAW-agnostic way, then that would be great although it would probably need bigger hardware.
post edited by xen - 2009/06/26 04:12:43
|
feedback50
Max Output Level: -79 dBFS
- Total Posts : 564
- Joined: 2004/05/31 12:08:15
- Location: Oregon, USA
- Status: offline
RE: Backing tracks, playlists and automation for live bands
2009/07/01 18:40:03
(permalink)
Of all topics in the VS100 board, I think the live-backing-tracks is one of the most discussed topics. I hope Roland/Cakewalk (or even a competitor) can address this sometime soon. The requirments aren't that tough, and no new technology is required. Here is what I see the requirements as:
1. Durable metal cabinet with an optional road-worthy case.
2. Solid state memory (micro-SD, etc.) Disk based systems have a tendency to skip on very loud bandstands.
3. Seperate stereo balanced sends to the FOH system that do not include click track.
(a nice extra feature would be to configure the outs as XLR male outputs, like a microphone so it would interface easily to a conventional snake.
A switchable level change to output like a direct-box would be cool to so the House Sound System would see it as two more mic inputs).
4. A loud headphone output for use by the drummer.
5. Illuminated interface with large print for song titles and navigation (for dark bandstands).
6. The ability to save projects with tempo data (to configure in-board click) along with the stereo backing track via USB from a conventional DAW (hopefully Sonar).
7. A loud click that can be sent (along with the stereo tracks) to the headphone output only (to give the drummer a count-in and keep him in sync).
(a variety of click sounds may help as well. I know some drummers that prefer a cow bell sound because it cuts through the other tracks).
8. Some ability to balance the click against the backing tracks through the headphones.
9. Integrated Playlists (multiple lists) with enough memory to keep up to five sets of material (with a big enough memory).
Nice extra features would be:
* 24 bit audio (44.1 is fine)
* support for other audio formats (wav, mp3, etc)
* an optional floor stand or mic stand mount
* foot-switch to cue next song
* foot-switch-controlled looping option (between preset markers) to extend solo sections on a live gig (to keep people on the dance floor on a tough night in a club).
* a track normalizing function so playback levels are consistent from song to song.
* an aux input to permit connecting an IPod (etc.) to play music during breaks in the club (although with enough memory and support for multiple play lists this could be done with the internal memory).
This thing doesn't have to be a recorder as well, but I wouldn't rule that out. Having additional tracks (to be included optionally in the FOH mix) wouldn't hurt, but it's not a requirement. This could allow for covering backing parts for a small ensemble, or leaving them out when the gig allows for bringing in backup singers or a horn section.
Judging from the amount of chatter I've seen here and on other sites, I think someone is missing a market opportunity.
|
SongCraft
Max Output Level: -36 dBFS
- Total Posts : 3902
- Joined: 2007/09/19 17:54:46
- Status: offline
RE: Backing tracks, playlists and automation for live bands
2009/07/02 04:40:07
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: xen
additional click-track separate out with options for count-in
SongCraft, did you see my post above, about why I think a dedicated click generated by the hardware is much less flexible, compared to generating a click yourself in your DAW and exporting it as an additional channel in your backing (e.g. as additional WAV channels)? Not sure why you would want to go with the limitations of a generated click in a live situation.
Yes You misunderstood what I meant ORIGINAL: SongCraft
> Easy transfer of SONAR projects (with better options) to hardware format (V-Live-Performer)
> Click-Track with flexible options such as count-in measures/beats, tempo, separate click output.
If you look at SONAR it has various options for metronome. I also suggest starting at a basic more affordable version with integrated mixer and flexible routing/multiple outputs to a larger expensive version with more features but all versions have that 'separate' click-track to keep the band in sync as I have said in previous posts. FWIW!!! A lot said on this thread are suggestions = feature requests for future Cakewalk/Roland hardware(s)! That said... you, I and other customers will have no say in the final development because it's up to Cakewalk/Roland to make final decisions 'if' there is going to be any development in this area. The other option if Cakewalk/Roland should decide NOT to go in that direction of development!?! . ..then current other options are a Laptop to playback backing tracks ((not full-blown projects containing ALL multiple tracks/FX's as backing tracks because it would be too CPU intensive)). The other options suggested on other threads is to use an iPod but those don't have separate click-track to keep the band in sync, the other option is for the more expensive audio hardware multi-track recorders/players such as already suggested on this thread. Then there's the Neko or Miko by Open Labs This subject 'Backing tracks for live performance' has already 'long' previously been discussed on the CW forums. No doubt there would be a HUGE market (to faithfully reproduce = transfer SONAR projects to portable hardware format + separate click-track monitor for 'live' on-stage use to help cue/keep the band in sync) but unfortunately so far Cakewalk/Roland has not gone in that direction. I have suggested if there is a possibility to customize 'add separate out/routing for click-track (metronome)' but so far Cakewalk has NOT responded to this thread.
post edited by SongCraft - 2009/07/02 05:34:55
|
xen
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 24
- Joined: 2009/06/05 15:41:35
- Status: offline
RE: Backing tracks, playlists and automation for live bands
2009/07/04 11:36:37
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: SongCraft
You misunderstood what I meant
ORIGINAL: SongCraft
> Easy transfer of SONAR projects (with better options) to hardware format (V-Live-Performer)
> Click-Track with flexible options such as count-in measures/beats, tempo, separate click output.
If you look at SONAR it has various options for metronome. I also suggest starting at a basic more affordable version with integrated mixer and flexible routing/multiple outputs to a larger expensive version with more features but all versions have that 'separate' click-track to keep the band in sync as I have said in previous posts.
OK, for what it's worth (I know it's hypothetical and all) - but I think you misunderstood what I meant. What if you want spoken/verbal cues in your click track like "chorus!" ?? What if there are multiple band members (such as drummer, percussionist) needing different click tracks at different volumes ?? A dedicated click tempo-mapped from the DAW coming out of a single dedicated headphone output (which I think is what feedback50 was suggesting as well) pre-empts what you're trying to do too much. Instead, just allow multiple line-level outputs, fed by multi-channel WAVs, without specifying what each channel is for. One band might want 3 channels of backing and 1 channel of click, while another band might want 1 channel of backing and 3 channels of click! Regardless, line outputs can then be routed through an external mixer, to create the right mixes for the right people, and deliver them to the right places on or off stage. This is more simple, flexible, elegant and reliable AND it works with any DAW. By all means have a dedicated headphone / click track output as well, for smaller venues, but don't limit the flexibility for everyone else ;-) ORIGINAL: SongCraft
I also suggest starting at a basic more affordable version ...
I agree. And the more affordable version should have the simplest functionality... which is the DAW-agnostic functionality.... which means a simple USB file drop with multiple audio channels/outputs to support click tracks - surely simpler than DAW integration with the device holding a tempo map synced to the audio file? Let's not forget, SONAR has a small market share of DAWs - probably less than 1% - so why exclude the (affordable) device from the other 99% of the market? You can put your SONAR-specific functionality into your "larger expensive version with more features" or at least make it optional.
|