Helpful ReplyBass like this still eludes me

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Voda La Void
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Re: Bass like this still eludes me 2018/02/12 19:21:31 (permalink)
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post edited by Voda La Void - 2018/02/13 20:38:33

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Kamikaze
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Re: Bass like this still eludes me 2018/02/13 10:41:30 (permalink)
sharke
Thanks, I think I'll pick it up. I have Mark Studio which is great but sometimes it doesn't cut it. Could do with some alternatives. 


There are two Ampeg Bass heads in TH3, if you have that.

 
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sharke
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Re: Bass like this still eludes me 2018/02/13 17:50:17 (permalink)
Kamikaze
sharke
Thanks, I think I'll pick it up. I have Mark Studio which is great but sometimes it doesn't cut it. Could do with some alternatives. 


There are two Ampeg Bass heads in TH3, if you have that.




I have TH2, haven't actually checked out the bass heads. Thanks for the reminder. 

James
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Danny Danzi
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Re: Bass like this still eludes me 2018/02/13 21:14:56 (permalink)
Voda La Void
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Aww man, didn't you want to hear my take? I thought you posted a great question. Oh well, sorry I didn't get back to you in time. The question came in to me via email, so I saw what you asked.

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Voda La Void
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Re: Bass like this still eludes me 2018/02/13 21:44:39 (permalink)
Danny Danzi
Voda La Void
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Aww man, didn't you want to hear my take? I thought you posted a great question. Oh well, sorry I didn't get back to you in time. The question came in to me via email, so I saw what you asked.




I got the feeling I was hijacking sharke's thread each time I checked back...so I just deleted it.  Sorry. Yeah, I'd love to hear your take.  

Voda La Void...experiments in disturbing frequencies...
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sharke
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Re: Bass like this still eludes me 2018/02/14 02:10:43 (permalink)
Voda La Void
Danny Danzi
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Aww man, didn't you want to hear my take? I thought you posted a great question. Oh well, sorry I didn't get back to you in time. The question came in to me via email, so I saw what you asked.




I got the feeling I was hijacking sharke's thread each time I checked back...so I just deleted it.  Sorry. Yeah, I'd love to hear your take.  




I didn't mind at all and read your question. It actually prompted me to check out the band in question, they are certainly very good and the low end does sound pretty spectacular. 

James
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Danny Danzi
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Re: Bass like this still eludes me 2018/02/16 20:02:55 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Voda La Void 2018/02/16 22:10:34
Voda La Void
Danny Danzi
Voda La Void
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Aww man, didn't you want to hear my take? I thought you posted a great question. Oh well, sorry I didn't get back to you in time. The question came in to me via email, so I saw what you asked.




I got the feeling I was hijacking sharke's thread each time I checked back...so I just deleted it.  Sorry. Yeah, I'd love to hear your take.  




Sorry for the late reply! Nah, James is always open to discussing things and is one of the coolest guys on the forum. Hijacking is taking something in a totally different direction....you're keeping with the topic and are actually taking things into the modern world. :)
 
Ok, these guys are pretty much doing what I'm doing with my current productions. Here's the catch as well as what YOU may be doing wrong. I used this as my listening template.
 
https://youtu.be/0jpOBd949O4
 
Your bass is too high at 120 to work like something they are doing because 120 is going to push too much bass in my opinion. When you listen to "Physical Education".....the lowest thing I hear on my end is the kick. So they have created the low foundation with a kick that is thrusting 50-65 Hz. The key is to keep the bass thrust close, but at least 10-20-30 frequency numbers away. So, for the sake of the stuff I'm doing, I like my kicks to be at about 61 Hz as a thrust point. I high pass from 61 on down using a Sonitus EQ. The good thing about this particular EQ is, the Q adjusts the amount of lows you want to hear while still removing all those below. At 1.6 Q, you've not altered anything. Anything lower, removes lows...raise the Q, you get more of that 61 hz thrust. I just like the way that sounds. Now, I may add some 50 Hz in with a really tight Q (I know, sounds counter productive right?) when I master just to add the rumble element without the rumble. As soon as it sounds like a fart, you lost the impact. So you have to tread softly here. Maybe a touch of 6-8k for a little beater type slap...depends what you're looking for.
 
Next is the bass, do you hear how you can tell that bass has new strings on it? THIS IS PARAMOUNT with this sort of sound. I mentioned new strings and the sound of a piano in my other post....now you hear EXACTLY what I meant. This bass, you can push in the 70-80-90 Hz range as your thrust point. It will stick right up to the kick and not mask anything because you are far enough away. Again, Sonitus with a high pass on the thrust frequency. The bass you hear in this, is the sum of the kick and the bass forming as one....the way it should be. My go to for this is the UAD Helios 69, as I can dial in a bass in about a minute with it. A good alternative is the Waves Kramer HLS, which is the same plug....I just like the UAD sound a little better. But, same principal and capabilities.
 
What you also hear is the new strings "clack" which you will get in the 2k-3.5k range. You normally don't need anything in the 4k range for bass...although I have worked there a few times. But 5k on up can usually be low passed. This takes garbage out of the bass track. The clack=the top end presence that allows the bass to cut through. There are no low mid congestion frequencies in this. They've either been stripped away, or in a good engineer's mind, they were never there to begin with. Even here...if you wanted to add a few low elements at say 55 Hz with a tight Q, you're not doing anything drastic that would introduce major frequency masking.
 
As long as each instrument has an identity, you can lightly add some "like" frequencies as long as you don't go crazy. For example, if we added 50 Hz of sub low harmonics with a tight Q on the kick....try 55 on the bass....or 65. See how they get along. With a tight Q, it's not the same as a "thrust". You're adding "an element of". Understand? As long as you high pass the 45 and below (sometimes 55 and below depending on what the sound consists of) you should be in good shape. High passing goes a long way. Knowing where to do it is a different story. But realistically speaking, I could get away with sharing mixes with you that are just high passed, low passed and compressed and they would be good enough quality. If you choose your sounds wisely, you don't EVER have to eq extensively unless you are going for something specific.
 
Keep in mind, there is a nice compressor on this bass and you hear two things dominantly. The low end and the clack of the strings that allow you to hear the identity of the bass. Mids would kill the sound. So you have to be careful. You also NEVER want to solo up a bass and eq it. Always do it with the kick or the core of main instruments like drums, guitars, keys.
 
So now that our kick and bass have pretty much established a nice sub to low end foundation, that gives you room for your other instruments to be a little thicker in the actual bass area. Guitars normally don't need anything under 80 hz. But again, it depends on what the sound has in it already when you record it. Lows in guitars (dirty or clean) can be from 80-160 depending on your core tone. Sometimes you literally high pass at 140 or 160. Other times, just cap it at 80 and leave it alone. So you have a full pallet to work with when your bass instruments are dominating as low as they are. Your kick can get away with more thrust, your bass needs a little less and a little clack to cut through....just like we hear on this song.
 
Hope that helps a bit.....these are the things that work for me.
 
-Danny

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Voda La Void
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Re: Bass like this still eludes me 2018/02/16 22:10:30 (permalink)
Awesome, Danny.  I can't wait to put some of this to practice.  Thanks for taking the time, really.  
 
I haven't recorded in months because I've decided to completely rethink my sound and approach, everything. When I think about the results I've been getting with the kick focused around 80 and the bass around 120, what you're saying matches what I've noticed.  The kick is still not as deep and low as I imagine, and the bass is hard to push up because it overpowers the mix.  It sounds great, by itself, of course.  And the separation with the dirty guitar sound I'm dialing into sounds so much better than before...but not quite right still. 
 
I think you've given me some great direction here and it is very much appreciated.  I don't have those specific plug-ins, so I'll need to look into that, but I can at least start looking into this with the tools I have.  
 
 
 
 

Voda La Void...experiments in disturbing frequencies...
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www.vodalavoid.com
 
#38
Danny Danzi
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Re: Bass like this still eludes me 2018/02/17 03:06:13 (permalink)
You're very welcome. I hope it works out for you.....please let me know how it pans out. :)

-Danny

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sharke
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Re: Bass like this still eludes me 2018/02/17 06:36:56 (permalink)
What do you think about the Pultec-style technique of boosting and attenuating the low thrust at the same frequency? I have Native Instruments' Enhanced EQ which has the simultaneous cut and boost controls and I find cutting and boosting by equal amounts at the same frequency lets me boost the low end more than I normally would and it still sounds tight. I love the sound of doing that on a kick. 

James
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Danny Danzi
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Re: Bass like this still eludes me 2018/02/17 17:47:58 (permalink)
I forgot all about that! I went on a pultec craze for a few months but went in another direction. I'm going to mess around with this James. It just may be a better solution. Worst case scenario, it's another way to deal with things. ;)

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sharke
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Re: Bass like this still eludes me 2018/02/17 22:35:57 (permalink)
It definitely does something good. From what I understand, the central frequencies when you boost and attenuate on a Pultec are a little different, and the Q's are slightly different (narrower in the cut) and the interaction between them tightens up the low end. 

James
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