Bass like this still eludes me

msmcleod
One trick I saw on a mixing course was to put a limiter/gate on the bass track triggered by the kick drum, lowering the bass volume when the kick drum was playing, but allowing the bass to be at a slightly higher volume when the kick wasn't playing.
 
This effectively allowed the bass to be at a higher volume without sounding boomy and hogging the mix.
 
What was surprising, was that the perceived volume of the bass when the kick drum was playing didn't sound any different to the higher volume when it wasn't... but the bass sat in the mix MUCH better.

sharke
However I'm not sure I like the effect, and I try to write bass lines around the kick so that they're not (or rarely) playing together. 

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sharke
Have you tried the IK Multimedia Ampeg SVX by any chance? It has a B15 in it. 

Danny Danzi
Sharke, one of the things to remember here....the bass is pretty far away from where the kick drum thrust is accentuating. In today's music, everyone is pushing sub lows that distort and literally ruin mixes if they aren't careful...and most are not careful, due to some of these mastering plugins etc that pull the wool over their eyes.
 
The bass sounds like a felt pick to me also....as it would maybe slap a bit if it were fingers. But the other side of the coin there...the classic rock basses usually didn't send out frequencies over 3k for a little bit of clack. They were low passed pretty well to keep that garbage out. This sits so well because it's pushing the right low end and the kick drum is thrusting up at around 90-110Hz range roughly. (listening through gaming speakers at the moment)
 
There are no sub low kick drums like we hear today.....no sub low bass push....no guitars pushing bass frequencies...keyboards are out of the way....this is why it just works so well and is a good lesson to those wanting to learn how important it is to pick and choose the right frequencies. If they want a kick that thrusts low, the bass has to have a higher thrust point. At some point, they have to determine whether they want the kick drum to be the low end or the bass. Whatever they choose, the other must stay out of the way. Prime example...Metallica. Though they don't have any real bass guitar presence (presence meaning audibly heard in a good way lol) the kick drum is clicky. So if they wanted a Fleetwood Mac bass, it would fit right in as it thrusts out lower notes.
 
Other rock bands are pushing the kick down low at 50-60hz which means the bass better be out of the way or it's mud city. So in that situation, you can have a little more bass clack. One of the issues we run into with rock is the over driven guitars. People add so much low end in them, they mask the kick and the bass. FM doesn't have any of that...clean recordings, or semi-dirty recordings are always easier to get a grasp on because they aren't so sonic and crushed with massive distortion.
 
Bass tones for me...I love a nice low note that sounds like a piano. That new string sound with a little bit of ping/clack at around 2.5k to 3k respectively. I currently use an SVT modeled amp out of the Fractal Axe Fx that I couldn't be happier with. I use an active pup, 5 string bass with Rotosound flatwound strings and a felt pick. The sound is just incredible no matter where I send the signal. Direct, the amp, it's just where I want it. The bass + good strings + good playing just about always sets you up for trouble free bass. The other side of the coin is also having an ear for bass tone and knowing how much low end is too much.
 
Believe it or not, there is a lot less low end in a bass than people think. The sum of the kick and bass literally make the sound of the entire bass spectrum of a song with all the other instruments also adding slightly to the mix. But you can usually get great results high passing your bass to the extreme at first, dialing in your kick to have the thrust you want, and then adding the low end back in your bass while selecting frequencies that accentuate the kick. From there, set the amount of bass clack/high end presence, set up a compressor to keep it tight depending on pick, felt pick or fingers, and it should be a done deal in about 15 minutes or less.
 
If you have a bass that isn't quite set up right, old strings, your technique isn't as good as it should be, you use a heavy pick....it's going to be a bit more challenging. The sims they have today should be able to get you close to that sound. You can definitely tell it's an amp mic'd up for sure because of the open sound and lack of high end transients. Even there though, with the power we have today....low passing can go a long way and the right IR can be an incredible difference. :)
 
-Danny

sharke

Danny Danzi
Sharke, one of the things to remember here....the bass is pretty far away from where the kick drum thrust is accentuating. In today's music, everyone is pushing sub lows that distort and literally ruin mixes if they aren't careful...and most are not careful, due to some of these mastering plugins etc that pull the wool over their eyes.
 
The bass sounds like a felt pick to me also....as it would maybe slap a bit if it were fingers. But the other side of the coin there...the classic rock basses usually didn't send out frequencies over 3k for a little bit of clack. They were low passed pretty well to keep that garbage out. This sits so well because it's pushing the right low end and the kick drum is thrusting up at around 90-110Hz range roughly. (listening through gaming speakers at the moment)
 
There are no sub low kick drums like we hear today.....no sub low bass push....no guitars pushing bass frequencies...keyboards are out of the way....this is why it just works so well and is a good lesson to those wanting to learn how important it is to pick and choose the right frequencies. If they want a kick that thrusts low, the bass has to have a higher thrust point. At some point, they have to determine whether they want the kick drum to be the low end or the bass. Whatever they choose, the other must stay out of the way. Prime example...Metallica. Though they don't have any real bass guitar presence (presence meaning audibly heard in a good way lol) the kick drum is clicky. So if they wanted a Fleetwood Mac bass, it would fit right in as it thrusts out lower notes.
 
Other rock bands are pushing the kick down low at 50-60hz which means the bass better be out of the way or it's mud city. So in that situation, you can have a little more bass clack. One of the issues we run into with rock is the over driven guitars. People add so much low end in them, they mask the kick and the bass. FM doesn't have any of that...clean recordings, or semi-dirty recordings are always easier to get a grasp on because they aren't so sonic and crushed with massive distortion.
 
Bass tones for me...I love a nice low note that sounds like a piano. That new string sound with a little bit of ping/clack at around 2.5k to 3k respectively. I currently use an SVT modeled amp out of the Fractal Axe Fx that I couldn't be happier with. I use an active pup, 5 string bass with Rotosound flatwound strings and a felt pick. The sound is just incredible no matter where I send the signal. Direct, the amp, it's just where I want it. The bass + good strings + good playing just about always sets you up for trouble free bass. The other side of the coin is also having an ear for bass tone and knowing how much low end is too much.
 
Believe it or not, there is a lot less low end in a bass than people think. The sum of the kick and bass literally make the sound of the entire bass spectrum of a song with all the other instruments also adding slightly to the mix. But you can usually get great results high passing your bass to the extreme at first, dialing in your kick to have the thrust you want, and then adding the low end back in your bass while selecting frequencies that accentuate the kick. From there, set the amount of bass clack/high end presence, set up a compressor to keep it tight depending on pick, felt pick or fingers, and it should be a done deal in about 15 minutes or less.
 
If you have a bass that isn't quite set up right, old strings, your technique isn't as good as it should be, you use a heavy pick....it's going to be a bit more challenging. The sims they have today should be able to get you close to that sound. You can definitely tell it's an amp mic'd up for sure because of the open sound and lack of high end transients. Even there though, with the power we have today....low passing can go a long way and the right IR can be an incredible difference. :)
 
-Danny

Great advice Danny and I've always heeded your low kick/high bass/vice versa advice since reading it from you years ago. I also try to avoid the bass and the kick hitting together in my arrangements, mostly because it's so much easier to get them working like that and also because I kind of like that interplay between them. 
 
I use Trilian a lot and to be honest their bass samples have WAY too much low end on them in my opinion - I end up taking a huge amount of it out in a way that has you looking at the EQ display and thinking "no, that can't be right," lol. 
 
I think one of my biggest problems with bass is in figuring out what to do in the 200-300Hz region. Oftentimes I give that area an exploratory boost and really like what's there, but it just interferes with the other instruments too much. And I also like to apply a little light saturation to the mids, but I find I don't like when that's overdone, unless it's for effect (or it's an aggressive synth bass for EDM styles).