vaultwit
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Bass rolloff switch on condenser mics... necessary for recording vocals?
A lot of condenser mics have a bass rolloff switch, which basically just cuts some of the lower frequencies. I will be using a condenser mic for vocals, and I was wondering if this bass rolloff switch is really necessary? In other words, should I only be looking for condenser mics with this feature if I will be using it for vocals?
Is the bass rolloff switch just something I can do by cutting lows on the recording in my DAW?
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Middleman
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Re:Bass rolloff switch on condenser mics... necessary for recording vocals?
April 06, 12 0:12 PM
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I prefer to roll off the preamp if it has an adjustable filter. Mic rolloff I find, seems to always roll off at the wrong part of the vocal. Less versatile for this type of thing.
I prefer to cut in the DAW, easier to carve away what you don't want versus not having what you need.
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vaultwit
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Re:Bass rolloff switch on condenser mics... necessary for recording vocals?
April 06, 12 0:37 PM
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Middleman
I prefer to roll off the preamp if it has an adjustable filter. Mic rolloff I find, seems to always roll off at the wrong part of the vocal. Less versatile for this type of thing.
I prefer to cut in the DAW, easier to carve away what you don't want versus not having what you need.
So not having a bass-rolloff switch shouldn't be a deal breaker, right?
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osd
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Re:Bass rolloff switch on condenser mics... necessary for recording vocals?
April 06, 12 0:45 PM
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Nah. You can cut at the pre- or with Sonitus EQ.
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Middleman
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Re:Bass rolloff switch on condenser mics... necessary for recording vocals?
April 06, 12 0:47 PM
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vaultwit
So not having a bass-rolloff switch shouldn't be a deal breaker, right?
Not at all.
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BenMMusTech
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Re:Bass rolloff switch on condenser mics... necessary for recording vocals?
April 06, 12 0:54 PM
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Sometimes, esp if we have a bad or novice singer who cant control plosives
Neb
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vaultwit
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Re:Bass rolloff switch on condenser mics... necessary for recording vocals?
April 06, 12 0:57 PM
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BenMMusTech
Sometimes, esp if we have a bad or novice singer who cant control plosives
Neb
See that's the thing--plosives. I would imagine that a mic with a bass-rolloff switched enabled would be less susceptible to plosives, which cannot be removed simply from software EQ (as far as I know)
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osd
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Re:Bass rolloff switch on condenser mics... necessary for recording vocals?
April 06, 12 1:58 AM
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vaultwit
BenMMusTech
Sometimes, esp if we have a bad or novice singer who cant control plosives
Neb
See that's the thing--plosives. I would imagine that a mic with a bass-rolloff switched enabled would be less susceptible to plosives, which cannot be removed simply from software EQ (as far as I know)
Isn't that a job for a pop filter?
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vaultwit
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Re:Bass rolloff switch on condenser mics... necessary for recording vocals?
April 06, 12 2:06 AM
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osd
vaultwit
BenMMusTech
Sometimes, esp if we have a bad or novice singer who cant control plosives
Neb
See that's the thing--plosives. I would imagine that a mic with a bass-rolloff switched enabled would be less susceptible to plosives, which cannot be removed simply from software EQ (as far as I know)
Isn't that a job for a pop filter?
Well yes, and I do believe that my pop filter is good enough to get rid of nearly all plosives. But still I feel like its possible to get one or two every now and then
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Lanceindastudio
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Re:Bass rolloff switch on condenser mics... necessary for recording vocals?
April 06, 12 2:37 AM
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but rolling off the frequencies where those plosives are found pretty much takes care of that-
Vocalists are supposed to be able to control this stuff though of course.
Lance
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mattplaysguitar
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Re:Bass rolloff switch on condenser mics... necessary for recording vocals?
April 06, 12 2:43 AM
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You can do things post processing to help remove plosives, but at the end of the day, a pop filter works better and is less hassle.
I see a low frequency roll-off function as purely a headroom tool. But as we have 24 bit these days, it's really not necessary. If you only had 16 bit, you could find uses for it, otherwise, record everything, use a pop filter, and eq it in your DAW.
I believe vocalists should learn to control this in a LIVE environment, but in a studio, keep your head in the exact same spot and sing. This way you're not going to be messing with proximity effect or altering ratio of dry to wet room noise or affecticing the response due to your polar pattern. Keep your head still and the engineer then has a consistent track to compress, eq and maybe automate those paramaters post processing to get the sound you want without risk of things being ruined.
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Silicon Audio
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Re:Bass rolloff switch on condenser mics... necessary for recording vocals?
April 06, 12 3:47 AM
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The main reason you find a bass roll-off switch on a cardioid or multi-patterned mic is because of the proximity effect you get when you are up close to a cardioid or figure-8 patterned mic which emphasises the bass. If your mic is in omni mode, you don't get a proximity effect, so you could leave the switch off. Inversely if you distance mic with a cardioid or figure-8 mic, you get bass attenuation, so you would leave the bass roll-off disabled in that situation too.
Many hand-held condensers are pre-EQ'd for close-up work, therefore they don't have the switch.
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BenMMusTech
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Re:Bass rolloff switch on condenser mics... necessary for recording vocals?
April 06, 12 4:54 AM
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Thats what I was saying bad singers even with pop sheilds cant handle plosives hence the roll of switch and yes proximity effect comes into play in particular for guitar.
The whole point there is not a lot of useful infromation going on down under the 80 hz unless it bass, we are going to roll it off any way, do it at the microphone, do it on the preamp or with an effect's we are going to surgicly remove under 80hz apart from the drum instruments anyway.
Just use the mic filter for bad singers or accoustic guitars.
Neb
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Beagle
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Re:Bass rolloff switch on condenser mics... necessary for recording vocals?
April 06, 12 7:59 AM
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mattplaysguitar
You can do things post processing to help remove plosives, but at the end of the day, a pop filter works better and is less hassle.
I see a low frequency roll-off function as purely a headroom tool. But as we have 24 bit these days, it's really not necessary. If you only had 16 bit, you could find uses for it, otherwise, record everything, use a pop filter, and eq it in your DAW.
I believe vocalists should learn to control this in a LIVE environment, but in a studio, keep your head in the exact same spot and sing. This way you're not going to be messing with proximity effect or altering ratio of dry to wet room noise or affecticing the response due to your polar pattern. Keep your head still and the engineer then has a consistent track to compress, eq and maybe automate those paramaters post processing to get the sound you want without risk of things being ruined.
EXACTLY! there are so many people here on these forums who complain about "unexperienced singers" not "working the mic" and it's not correct, IMO. you should only "work the mic" in a studio if you know you're going to add more room and lose proximity affect and that's what you're wanting to do! most of the time you don't want to do that! you want to keep the same proximity affect throughout and not add or subtract room. so you keep your mouth at the same distance from the mic the whole time! live is completely different!
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Silicon Audio
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Re:Bass rolloff switch on condenser mics... necessary for recording vocals?
April 06, 12 8:25 AM
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In live sound reinforcement, you might EQ to reduce the audible effects of plosives, but in a recording environment, you need to avoid them altogether. No matter what you do with EQ (including the low cut on the mic), a plosive causing a pop will never sound good. Reposition the mic and start again with a good pop filter.
The EQ on the mic is really there to reduce the effects of close proximity or maybe low frequency rumble, but when I'm recording vocals, there's no way I would leave a plosive pop on the track. I would either use a better take, or fix it while comping multiple takes.
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Gaffpro
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Re:Bass rolloff switch on condenser mics... necessary for recording vocals?
April 06, 12 10:11 AM
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On my U87, I have a low cut that I've used (I believe it's 80 hz)...but I like the sound actually better without it....
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Bass rolloff switch on condenser mics... necessary for recording vocals?
April 06, 12 10:22 AM
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vaultwit
A lot of condenser mics have a bass rolloff switch, which basically just cuts some of the lower frequencies. I will be using a condenser mic for vocals, and I was wondering if this bass rolloff switch is really necessary? In other words, should I only be looking for condenser mics with this feature if I will be using it for vocals?
Is the bass rolloff switch just something I can do by cutting lows on the recording in my DAW?
In all honesty, it depends on the mic and the voice that's going through it. For myself, I always use my roll-off switch. For others, I may leave it on. I'd rather add a little low end after the print if need be than be stuck with too much at the print stage. Depending on how the low end translates...if it does turn into a bad plosive, sometimes eq won't get rid of it because the low end you printed with destructively created the plosive. You'll literally see it in the wave file. So when in doubt, use the roll-off switch. You can always add whatever lows you need without destructively screwing up the wave file. You're only going to high pass the vocal anyway...no sense letting massive low end creep onto the wave file for life. But again...it depends on the voice and the mic. -Danny
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js516
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Re:Bass rolloff switch on condenser mics... necessary for recording vocals?
April 06, 12 10:23 AM
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Although not a deal breaker, if a mic has a bass roll off I would suggest to get it. I find having more options when I'm recording is better than less. The one truth is that you have to get the best recording possible and how you get it does not matter one bit. A pop filter is the best solution because it prevents bottoming out the element which affects how efficiently the mic can pick up all the other frequencies (and also can ruin the element), and keeping the spit out of the mic. The roll off on the mic in this case makes it more flexible, it isn't necessary, but it doesn't hurt to have it either and you still may need to use it in addition to the pop filter.You can roll off the lows after the fact, but the over-emphasized low ends at recording time will affect the gain structure down stream which can cause other issues depending on your set up. As an example, one benefit of cutting the low-end off at the mic is to prevent your preamps inputs from getting overloaded. If your preamp has an input pad, then switch it on and you may be fine, if it does not, you're screwed. Tweaking the preamp gain won't help you in that case.
post edited by js516 - April 06, 12 10:37 AM
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jimkleban
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Re:Bass rolloff switch on condenser mics... necessary for recording vocals?
April 06, 12 10:47 AM
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The bass roll off is usually needed for the proximity effect... if you singer like to put the mic in his/her mouth while performing, by all means, USE THE ROLL OFF... (usually need the roll off when recording sources with a very close mic).
Jim
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SvenArne
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Re:Bass rolloff switch on condenser mics... necessary for recording vocals?
April 06, 12 10:57 AM
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It depends on the nature of the rolloff. Some mics have a gradual (like 6 dB/octave) rolloff at like 160 Hz, which can be useful for stage use, but rather stupid in the studio. More common is a 12 or 18 dB/octave at 100 or 80 Hz which you may as well leave permanently engaged when recording vocals, since you'll gain more headroom for the relevant (vocal) freq range. This is especially useful when you have a hardware compressor in front of your interface.
But in any case, the lack of rolloff-switch shouldn't be a deal-breaker. If the mic sounds good flat, get it!
Sven
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Loptec
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Re:Bass rolloff switch on condenser mics... necessary for recording vocals?
April 06, 12 12:00 AM
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Silicon Audio
The main reason you find a bass roll-off switch on a cardioid or multi-patterned mic is because of the proximity effect you get when you are up close to a cardioid or figure-8 patterned mic which emphasises the bass. If your mic is in omni mode, you don't get a proximity effect, so you could leave the switch off. Inversely if you distance mic with a cardioid or figure-8 mic, you get bass attenuation, so you would leave the bass roll-off disabled in that situation too.
Many hand-held condensers are pre-EQ'd for close-up work, therefore they don't have the switch.
+1 This is the simple answer to the question.. :) It has nothing to do with the pops a singer makes, just with the lower frequencies being extra enhanced when the source of the sound is close to these kinds of mics. This bass enhancement happens no matter if the sound source is a voice or, for example, an acoustic guitar. You can read more about this here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w...oximity_effect_(audio) The switch might be nice to have if you, for example, mic an acoustic guitar and want to keep the mic close to the guitar. I'll work just as well if you have a hipass-filter on your mic-pre though. If you'll just record voice with the mic, you don't need to worry about not having this switch though. Just put the pop-filter some distance from the mic and tell the singer to stay bahind it, and it'll work out fine. :)
post edited by Loptec - April 06, 12 12:28 AM
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SvenArne
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Re:Bass rolloff switch on condenser mics... necessary for recording vocals?
April 06, 12 1:42 PM
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It has nothing to do with the pops a singer makes
Yeah, if you keep getting plosives, someone is doing something wrong and no hi-pass filter, whether on the mic, preamp or inside the box is going to be of any real help!
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John
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Re:Bass rolloff switch on condenser mics... necessary for recording vocals?
April 06, 12 2:04 PM
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Yeah, if you keep getting plosives, someone is doing something wrong and no hi-pass filter, whether on the mic, preamp or inside the box is going to be of any real help! Yes tell them to goto the Earl Sheib smooth singing school! (A Detroiter will know about him)
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vaultwit
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Re:Bass rolloff switch on condenser mics... necessary for recording vocals?
April 06, 12 5:43 PM
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So basically the consensus is, that a bass-rolloff switch is not necessary to record vocals with a condenser, right? Except maybe to reduce the proximity effect when singing really close to the mic
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Middleman
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Re:Bass rolloff switch on condenser mics... necessary for recording vocals?
April 06, 12 6:04 PM
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Yes, because if you need bass roll off, back away from the mic. It can be controlled this way as well.
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Bass rolloff switch on condenser mics... necessary for recording vocals?
April 06, 12 6:09 PM
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There is also the theory that if you remove unwanted low end in a recording (at the microphone) then your A to D converters are never going to see it hence there may be an improvement in sound compared to recording all that unnecessary low end and removing it later.
Another thing to factor in is the cutoff frequency and the slope of the mics HPF. It won't be the same as what you will have on a preamp or an EQ so you may be able to create a certain sound low end wise only that way. Some mikes have switchable cutoff frequencies too.
If you are choosing between two condenser mics and they are both good quality and similar in price then I would go for the one with the HPF on it. I have done thousands of hours of recording and in many situations I have used it. If you know you are definitely going to roll off low end eg Drum OHeads etc or hats it is handy to have and it starts the process early.
Also be careful using it when you don't need to. People can be in a hurry to use it on vocals but it can actually thin out a vocal sound (even female) without knowing it. You won't know because you don't have access to the non HPF sound at that point. It's too late.
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SvenArne
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Re:Bass rolloff switch on condenser mics... necessary for recording vocals?
April 06, 12 6:28 PM
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Middleman
Yes, because if you need bass roll off, back away from the mic. It can be controlled this way as well.
I agree in general but keep in mind that backing off from the mic adds more ambience to the recording. So those who are recording in very unflattering rooms mightactually be better off singing closer to the mic and cutting the low-end. I believe, however that the kind of low-end boost you get on vocals from the proximity effect won't be sufficiently remedied by a microphone lo-cut switch as frequencies higher than the typical 80-100 Hz will be boosted. I certainly put hipass filters on all vocal tracks ITB anywhere from 100-180 Hz, depending on voice and circumstance. Anyone remember how low (in Hz) a male bass vocal goes, typically? Sven
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vaultwit
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Re:Bass rolloff switch on condenser mics... necessary for recording vocals?
April 06, 12 6:40 PM
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Ok I'll just spill it. The reason why I'm asking this question is because I'm really interested in getting the Blue Bluebird microphone. But it does not have a bass-rolloff switch (or any other switch for that matter).
I actually like the proximity effect it gives because it makes the vocals sound very thick and full, without sounding muddy, sort of like (dare I say it) Neumann mics. So I can't imagine that I will be wanting to cut any of that fullness out via a bass-rolloff switch. But I wanted to check with people that are more experienced than I am before making the purchase.
I've also noticed that if you step a little further away from the mic, you lose some of the fullness from the proximity effect, but the vocals still sound very warm and smooth without sounding hollow... I think doing this works better than a bass-rolloff switch. I feel like this type of sound would be ideal for pop songs were you want the vocals to be very, well, poppy.
Anyways, further inputs are of course welcome
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Alegria
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Re:Bass rolloff switch on condenser mics... necessary for recording vocals?
April 06, 12 6:45 PM
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"SvenArne"
Anyone remember how low (in Hz) a male bass vocal goes, typically? Assuming C4 @ 261.63Hz then a tenor should be comfortable hitting C3 @ 130.81Hz and in some cases, as low as A2 @ 110.00Hz. A bass (below a baritone) should be comfortable hitting E2 @ 82.41Hz and again is some cases, as low as C2 @ 65.41Hz. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. 
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SvenArne
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Re:Bass rolloff switch on condenser mics... necessary for recording vocals?
April 06, 12 6:49 PM
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vaultwit
I actually like the proximity effect it gives because it makes the vocals sound very thick and full, without sounding muddy
Oh, I do think you'll find that the proximity effect can make vocals very muddy indeed. Be careful and add to taste, just like when cooking with strong-tasting ****es. If you like deep and warm vocals (I have no idea what type of voices you'll be recording) the Bluebird may not be the best choice even with carefully controlled proximity effect. I have used it quite a bit and it seems to work best for high/mid range female voices. Sven Edit: Is ****E, as in seasoning, a dirty word now? Is it bleeped out for everybody here? S-P-I-C-E!!
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