I know :-)

He's a chain yanker!  LOL!

Beepster


I panned them out to about 10% thinking that would be enough but when (and if) I revisit this I'll keep that in mind. I don't know much about proper mix separation but I'm learning so future endeavors should be a little more presentable (I was trying to go for a nice Slayer type chug but it didn't quite work out

Try seperating the rhythm parts 80-100%. !00% works fine and is very common for metal. 10% is essentially a waste of time.
 
On one track add an EQ. Choose a boost of about 8 dB using a Bandpass filter. Sweep the Frequency between roughly 2-4 kHz until you hear a sweet spot pop out. Lower the boost to about 3 dB. EQ the other rhythm track with a 3dB cut at the same frequency. This can also be important for circumstances where the mix is heard in mono or with less than ideal seperation.
 
Try using different guitars, amps etc. for each rhythm track, for example a Mesa on one side and a Marshall/Soldano on the other.

Excuse the gamer in me, but you've got a uber boss fight happening! How long did it take you to beat him/her or get beaten by him or her? Did you throw your console out the window afterwards? :D

I'm with the others about the drums being a bit low, but not every tune needs drums. Not my style, but I do appreciate the effort put into it and that's not me saying I don't like the song either.

Btw, I'm still learning the production stuff, too, so you aren't alone.

All in all, this piece was well done for it only to be a rough sketch. Anticipating to see how this will be fleshed out.

Right on, Rus. The gamer comment confuses me a bit but it made me laugh anyway. I more than respect your opinion due to your theoretical/compositional insights and our past discussions. You may find this interesting or at least amusing. I wrote this completely backwards. I was just playing around with BFD and tossed together a drum track to see what the preset grooves were like. THEN I started jamming along with it and pieced together the rhythm guitar parts. It was tricky because the beats move and change so darned fast. Also in usual Beepster style of course I had to toss in some random measure counts and at one point cut off a measure (man was that a pain to create a transition for). Compared to what I'd usually do the rhythm guit parts are pretty simplistic but I just wanted something I could easily solo over... which actually turned out to be... kind of true, kind of not. Now this is the part you might appreciate. Because of all the diminished 5ths in the rhythm parts I automatically assumed that Locrian would be my best bet for leads. Well after a couple of evenings trying to shoehorn in some Locrian based solos... and then trying to go back and forth from Aeolian to Locrian and even attempting to squeeze in some Dorian I realized the darned thing is in Phrygian with little pockets of Locrian jammed in there. Hilarious. So from there all the improv and diatonic based stuff went easy and the rest was just chromatics following the rhythms. It was obnoxiously fun going through that process. There is a reason I labeled it dork metal... because I'm a dork. Hope you've been well and thanks for the listen. ;-)

evadianepug


He's a chain yanker!  LOL!

where I come from that could be used as rhyming slang :)

This is great stuff guys but this is all sim based (GR5) and with my guitar plugged straight into my interface. It's all based on my dry signal which admittedly isn't all that great. I really wish I could use the actual Hi-Z setting on my Scarlett but the darned thing is just too hot and I can keep it from clipping. I even lowered my pick ups and no dice. What I MAY do is hook up my old Line 6 head to the interface VIA the two XLR outputs on the back to get some attenuation control (that's the correct term right?). I can also get a far cleaner signal this way but I really wanted to test out what I could make all this crud do without external gear. It is FAR better than anything I've tried going directly in to my old Layla 3G but I think I should resign myself to using a bit of external gear for my serious recordings. In fact I was contemplating using this track to test out various methods including micing my actual amp with and without pedals with different mics different outs and eventually try it all through my old Mackie mixer... whatever crazy thing I can conjure up really with the various gear I've got laying around. Thanks all for the input and tips. You make my brain light up with ideas. It's really appreciated and I've been enjoying all of this very much. Cheers.

Beepster


Right on, Rus. The gamer comment confuses me a bit but it made me laugh anyway. I more than respect your opinion due to your theoretical/compositional insights and our past discussions. You may find this interesting or at least amusing. I wrote this completely backwards. I was just playing around with BFD and tossed together a drum track to see what the preset grooves were like. THEN I started jamming along with it and pieced together the rhythm guitar parts. It was tricky because the beats move and change so darned fast. Also in usual Beepster style of course I had to toss in some random measure counts and at one point cut off a measure (man was that a pain to create a transition for). Compared to what I'd usually do the rhythm guit parts are pretty simplistic but I just wanted something I could easily solo over... which actually turned out to be... kind of true, kind of not. Now this is the part you might appreciate. Because of all the diminished 5ths in the rhythm parts I automatically assumed that Locrian would be my best bet for leads. Well after a couple of evenings trying to shoehorn in some Locrian based solos... and then trying to go back and forth from Aeolian to Locrian and even attempting to squeeze in some Dorian I realized the darned thing is in Phrygian with little pockets of Locrian jammed in there. Hilarious. So from there all the improv and diatonic based stuff went easy and the rest was just chromatics following the rhythms. It was obnoxiously fun going through that process. There is a reason I labeled it dork metal... because I'm a dork. Hope you've been well and thanks for the listen. ;-)

What I meant was, having played many a game - obviously encountering mini-boss/boss - there is usually a very busy track of some kind (not necessarily in the style of your tune), but the boss battle music is pretty intense and why wouldn't it since the last thing you face before beating the game. The "throwing the console out the window" was merely a lighthearted quip. (ie: I take it you lost!)


Backwards, eh? Nice. As I've always said, not every problem can nor should they be solved forwards. And in terms of which parts get written and in what order, that really makes no difference as it's all about how it comes together.


Are you patronizing me? I'm kidding!! Sounds like you had a blast and I can see how something like that would be hilarious; however, shoe-horning isn't recommended. If anything, at least make such shoe-horning make sense. (And often, that is a problem, which requires ironing out the kinks if not removing the shoehorn altogether)


"DORK" metal! I thought it said Dark Metal!  (I'm being flat out serious when I say that)


As I said before, I'm glad you had fun and that is what one should do when making music or doing anything in life! I suspect your next piece to be even dorkier!

Bill Jackson [Cakewalk
]

SToons

Try using different guitars, amps etc. for each rhythm track, for example a Mesa on one side and a Marshall/Soldano on the other.

I agree, this is ideal.  However, since the parts are already tracked, this may not be an easy option.  My personal favorite tool to give doubled/panned metal guitar tracks a different color is Sonitus:Multiband.  It sorta works as an eq and compressor simultaneously on 5 individual bands.  So you can create differences in both dynamics and overall frequency dominance.  This is the core of what differs between two amps.  Here's a (sloppy, quick & dirty) example of it does...  The first few measures are "natural" the last few measures are with a multiband on each track, tweaked differently:


https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4795919/MultibandExample.mp3

For what it's worth, my suggestion was based on the fact I knew Beepster was using modelers so I assumed he had tracked dry and he's since confirmed that. Unless I record thru an external rig it seems crazy to ever print wet; if I get low on CPU I just bounce and Archive the original . It's easier/cleaner to edit dry signals as well. In fact, usually when I record "wet" thru an external rig I split the signal and record both the amp, via mic, and the dry signal via DI box in case I opt for some good old fashioned analog re-amping.
 
I've heard of the approach you mention but I've never actually tried it. Makes sense, I'll have to try it. I guess my only concern there is that it would have to be used "judiciously" as I find overdriven guitar is often quite compressed already. Thanks for the tip though, always appreciated. I do like the idea of being able to make certain freq ranges "pop" more.
 
Thanks for the example - you can clearly hear where the MB Comp kicks in. You might wanna AudioSnap those first three beats though ;-p..... j/k, I know it's just an example, but I couldn't resist...

Thanks, Steve. Again more high praise from a great player. I was gonna ask Danny to stop in and check it out but I realized I totally screwed it up so I'm gonna wait for the next song (which I am currently putting together in X2... yay!) or until I fix this one. Frankly I think the actual music in this is kind of contrived and stale. I like my riffs to be a little more musical and tongue in cheek but as I mentioned to Rus I wrote the drum parts first and tried to squeeze the rhythm guitar part over top of it then shoehorned in the leads. This new one I'm working on I'm just writing the riffs a piece at a time to the metronome as I move through the song which is more how I'd do things when getting material ready for my bands (except without the metronome or recording gear... my gray matter was my DAW). I don't want to waste anyone's time with this first test because although it is likely salvageable I know I can do better... musically and production wise. This all gave me the encouragement I needed though and the project was certainly a well needed crash course in Sonar. That said... is it just me or is X2 about a million times easier to work in?

I got 99 problems but X2 ain't 1.

Yeah, it's classic "guitarist trying to engineer" syndrome. The guits always end up high in the mix. After a few days away from it that really has become apparent. Part of the problem I think is the panning and lack of drum separation. There were certain guitar parts that completely dropped out if I set the guitar levels any lower so it kept getting turned up. I tried doing some volume/gain automation on those parts but no matter what I did they still got buried. The two most problematic parts were the wacky tremolo bar part in the middle and the end of the solo right before the outro where I'm noodling in the lower range (the notes were getting sucked into the rhythm guitars at that point). I'm gonna have to try getting a more distinct tone for my lead I think but the only GR amp sim that was really working for this was the Hot Solo. Looks like TH2 has more varied usable sounds that might stand out from each other a little better. I'm working on a new track now that I think will turn out better in regards to mix. Also I'm writing it in a more normalish fashion (riffs first then the track will be built around those). Might take a few days though. Cheers and thanks for the input. :-)

Beepster


Yeah, it's classic "guitarist trying to engineer" syndrome......... Cheers and thanks for the input. :-)

I was going to mention this..... but didn't.  Guitarists obviously want to hear.... GUITARS!  So it's kind of hard when you really start to engineer  a mix to take off that "guitarist hat" and look objectively at the mix like a producer and engineer. 

I remember when I first came to realize this....it was a hard thing to turn that guitar down so it sat in the mix properly...... the next step was to use envelopes that shut down certain instruments totally in places. I caught a bunch of grief when I mixed a piano player  into a song and had the piano enveloped out and down in places and only allowed it to play in a few selected places.. ("we can't hear "her" piano playing")... but that's what mixing is. Now, I use hard enveloping ALL THE TIME! The music is better for it. Talk about giving space..... use hard enveloping and get lots of space. 

Right on, guitarhacker. I'm not familiar with "hard enveloping". Is that when you EQ out everything except the most prevalent signal? I'm not very good at that. I'm hoping R-Mix might help me see where things sit in the spectrum then I can carve out the good stuff from there. That may be the wrong way of doing it though but I'll research it. I need to start buying some books on the meat of actual music production techniques now that I know how to make the software work... kind of. Cheers.