SurfingMusicMan
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Building a studio from scratch
My wife and I are purchasing a house, and we're buying it enough under our budget that we're going to build a garage with a recording studio above it in the backyard.
So, any suggestions on hiring architects, general contractors, etc. (especially in the Kansas City area)? I want to have a separate control room and recording room with vaulted ceilings (like 15' or something). I know it would be best to hire someone to design it who has done recording studios before.
We're thinking $15,000-$25,000. Do you guys think that is reasonable/sufficient?
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jimack
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RE: Building a studio from scratch
2006/06/17 11:32:41
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☄ Helpfulby Vastman 2017/06/22 01:28:34
Bart, I would probably plan on the 25K figure given the cost of building materials these days. Also, the first person I would ask advice from would be Ethan Winer. He's a Sonar user and a forum member here. You could probably get in touch with him through his website www.realtraps.com. He knows his stuff, is a great guy, and I'm sure would be the source of much good information regarding this project. Best of luck with it! 
-- Jim _____________________ Sonar 7 PE, P5 v2.5, 3.4Ghz P4, 2GB RAM, MAudio 2496PCI, Event TR6, PodXT, Yamaha S90, Hammond XK-C3, MAudio Axiom 61, Gibson Les Paul Custom, Gretsch 5296, Fender Strat, Larrivee D03R, Martin D12-28, Martin D16-R, etc
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Dave Modisette
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RE: Building a studio from scratch
2006/06/17 11:50:35
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☄ Helpfulby glennstanton 2017/06/19 16:36:50
You're in that range if you do all the labor and design yourself. One thing that you must budget for is a separate central air conditioning and heating system for the studio. I've done one home studio with it and one without it and the one with the separate unit wins every time. If you are going to have a two room home studio then don't cramp yourself in a closet sized control room and put the talent in the big room. I put my mixer in the larger room and I have a barely adequate iso booth. However I can make it work comfortably. Check out my studio page. I spent your budget and I had to do everything but the AC system myself. IMHO, if you don't have the equivalent space to a 2-1/2 to 3 car garage, I wouldn't do a two room space. Maybe control room/vocal booth. My studio: http://web.tampabay.rr.com/cmodiset/webpage/Studio/Views%20Page.htm Click on the floor plan pics for better views.
post edited by Mod Bod - 2006/06/17 12:04:09
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SurfingMusicMan
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RE: Building a studio from scratch
2006/06/17 13:26:31
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Mod Bod,
It looks like your project is similar to what mine will be. I have 3 questions if you don't mind.
1) My cousin works for a lumber company and I will be able to get a lot of materials really cheap. The problem is I know next to nothing about building stuff. Plus, I'll be starting new a new job as an attorney (just graduated law school), and am afraid that, due to both my time limitations and ignorance, if I had to do this stuff, it would take me 20 years.
How much do you estimate for contracting out?
2) What is the point of an isolated drum booth? Is it just so that you can record drums at the same time as other instruments? Wouldn't recording drums in your bigger recording room sound better?
3) In response to your comment to use a bigger room for the control room, isn't it generally important to have the recording room as big as possible for sound quality purposes?
Thanks!
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Dave Modisette
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RE: Building a studio from scratch
2006/06/17 16:25:37
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ORIGINAL: barthowk
Mod Bod,
It looks like your project is similar to what mine will be. I have 3 questions if you don't mind.
1) My cousin works for a lumber company and I will be able to get a lot of materials really cheap. The problem is I know next to nothing about building stuff. Plus, I'll be starting new a new job as an attorney (just graduated law school), and am afraid that, due to both my time limitations and ignorance, if I had to do this stuff, it would take me 20 years.
How much do you estimate for contracting out?
2) What is the point of an isolated drum booth? Is it just so that you can record drums at the same time as other instruments? Wouldn't recording drums in your bigger recording room sound better?
3) In response to your comment to use a bigger room for the control room, isn't it generally important to have the recording room as big as possible for sound quality purposes?
Thanks!
Let me ask you this. Could you do a barter offer for some local contractor? Maybe a little contract work on the side. It's hard for me to estimate what it would cost for labor. I'm not a carpenter but my plastics fabrication skills and my ability to research DIY sites were enough. I can say this. There is a lot of 5/8 drywall and 3" rock wool in those walls. I wouldn't be surprised if I wouldn'd have to pay $30,000.00 to $45,000.00 for the build out including the AC if I was hiring someone else to to the build. I imagine that the design work would cost 2-3k. 2) Yes the booth is for drums and it's mainly for my sanity. I also use the space for band rehearsal and having the drummer tucked a bit away is nice. 3) A large live room is wonderful for the sound of instruments but since you've already aluded to your lack of time, I will venture a guess that you won't be doing a whole lot of band recording. I find I spend most of my time alone or with one musician and a guest. Also the size of a control is very, very important for making decisions in mixing. Having the boundaries of the room far enough away from the mix position gives your brain cues that allow it to determine what sound is your mixing space and what sound is your recording. It keeps you from having to overly deaden the room. Don't get caught up in trying to make your space a small version of a large studio. You'll probably just be chasing a pipe dream. I'm no expert at recording live drums but my last tune is using live drums in my booth. I've also had great results by hiring Frank at Live Studio Drums (www.lsd.com) to do my track. Anyway, you can judge for yourself by this recording if it is good enough for a weekend warrior's purpose. There's also room in my control room for some musicians to go direct or into amp modeling boxes.
post edited by Mod Bod - 2006/06/17 16:52:32
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CAW
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RE: Building a studio from scratch
2006/06/17 17:04:16
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Barthowk, if you subcontract the work yourself you won't have to pay the extra 30% to a general contractor. I would calculate the total material cost (retail) and then take 80% of that for labor. Add the two numbers together for your budget and then add a 20% contingency on top of it. Depending on what part of the country you are in, something like this can go for $60 to $120 per square foot and that is without any equipment or sound treatments. Hopefully you're going to do all of the A/V wiring yourself and at least save that labor. Of course, now that you're a lawyer, you could sue a general contractor and settle out of court for the work 
post edited by CAW - 2006/06/17 17:15:58
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Dave Modisette
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RE: Building a studio from scratch
2006/06/17 17:39:49
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Of course, now that you're a lawyer, you could sue a general contractor and settle out of court for the work
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Paul G
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RE: Building a studio from scratch
2006/06/17 21:07:37
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Hey Bart. PM me. I might be able to help you out with the design work. Paul
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Noah330
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RE: Building a studio from scratch
2006/06/18 19:59:42
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I hope you're going to have a elevator if you're on the second floor. I wouldn't want a client to fall down the stairs carrying something in and sue me.
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cAPSLOCK
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RE: Building a studio from scratch
2006/06/19 00:48:41
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Also remember the possible need for a bathroom. Even if this is a personal studio you might like the ability to go wee wee without walking to the house. ;) I wouldn't mind helping either. PM me for a phone number if you like. I did something like this from the slab up - maybe on a slightly larger scale, but the basic ideals are the same. http://noisevault.com/studio/studio.html I did have the help of an architect, and a contractor, but I was heaviliy involved with the whole project. Also it was 100% legal with all the inspections and permits required, though I didn't make too big a deal out fo the purpose of the place. The framing inspector looked at all the odd angles and signed the green ticket saying it looked well built, but he wondered if the guys were drunk when they put it together. ;) cAPS
post edited by cAPSLOCK - 2006/06/19 01:01:28
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papa2004
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RE: Building a studio from scratch
2006/06/19 02:04:16
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Depending on what part of the country you are in, something like this can go for $60 to $120 per square foot and that is without any equipment or sound treatments. If you're planning on an acoustically solid studio (floating walls, floors and ceiling, etc.,) you're probably looking at somewhere around $140 - $180 per square foot... Much of this depends on how serious you are about your studio's functionality...If you don't mind your neighbors disturbing your sonic space (and, if your neighbors don't mind you disturbing theirs) you might be able to lower the cost a bit, but your studio's capabilities will be diminished to some extent... Does your budget include equipment (hardware, software, wiring, mics, mic stands, cables, wall treatments, lighting, speakers, power amps, headphones, etc.,)? At some point in your building process (depending on local building codes and regulations) you will probably need to have a licensed architect submit a floorplan (and structural, plumbing & electrical schematics) to the proper authorities in order to get approval for a building permit...Even if local regulations don't require a building permit for you to make alterations to your home, make sure that you aren't violating any clauses in your homeowner's insurance policy (check with your agent and, if necessary, attach a rider to your policy to include additional liability and comprehensive coverage for your studio's assets)... *LOL* Did I just advise an attorney about insurance coverage? *LOL*
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SurfingMusicMan
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RE: Building a studio from scratch
2006/06/19 13:01:37
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A couple of you have mentioned PM(ing) you to get in contact - what is that?
The budget does not include any actual music gear - just the building of the place.
I'm thinking I'll probably want to float the floor, but maybe not the walls and ceiling. I want isolation and a great sounding room, but not for more than $25,000 or so. I can't even justify more than that to myself, let alone my wife (haha)!
As far as permits go, I've already called some government types in KC and got the general run down. Once I actually get someone to do the plans, I'll get all the nitty-gritty in writing. Point is, yes, I'm gonna get permits and everything.
As far as the bathroom goes, I think we may have it set up for one (with a hole in the cement slab), but not build one right away. I'll get that put in a few years or something.
thanks for the input everyone
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Noah330
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RE: Building a studio from scratch
2006/06/19 13:18:43
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You're going to float a floor on the second floor of a garage that will have no elevator or restroom? Would it be possible to build the studio on level ground - maybe behind the garage?
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cAPSLOCK
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RE: Building a studio from scratch
2006/06/20 01:39:43
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That's smart about the slab and the hole. Running the line is the most expensive part, but you will need that hole. ;) As to PMing.. I dunno, you have to add me to your address book here, and send me a message, but instead just email me from my website: http://noisevault.com/studio/contact.html _oh_ and most likely you will want to put the PVC in the hole and out till it gets out from under the slab and cap it at both ends. But i imagine you figured this already.
post edited by cAPSLOCK - 2006/06/20 01:49:57
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eric_peterson
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RE: Building a studio from scratch
2006/06/20 01:40:15
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Also remember the possible need for a bathroom. Even if this is a personal studio you might like the ability to go wee wee without walking to the house. ;) My wife wouldn't let me put a bathroom in, she was afraid she'd never see me! ;-)
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papa2004
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RE: Building a studio from scratch
2006/06/20 02:07:32
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I'm thinking I'll probably want to float the floor, but maybe not the walls and ceiling. I want isolation and a great sounding room, but not for more than $25,000 or so. I can't even justify more than that to myself, let alone my wife (haha)! barthowk, Floating the floor but not the walls and ceiling is practically useless...The idea of "floating" is to separate each structural element from the ones adjoining it...This is to diminish (or practically eliminate) any structural vibrations being transferred from one room to another...The simple analogy is that floating is used to keep outside sounds (vibrations) from coming in, and inside sounds (vibrations) from going out... Another critical element to this factor is HVAC ductwork...If your control room and your studio area (iso booths, etc.,) are serviced by connected ducts, you will never achieve total isolation...Remember, audio waves are vibrations of the airspace within your listening area and, if you have open vents in your control room that are connected to open vents in your studio, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what the results will be... I'm inclined to agree with Noah 330 (if you have the property footage needed)...You'd be much better off building a free-standing structure behind the garage...There are, however, a few things to consider...probably your main concern will be how this additional structure could affect future resale value (and, perhaps your property taxes)... The bathroom issue presents a different set of problems...Running water & flushing toilets produce a lot of noise...Water pipes are notoriously noisy...You also need to consider the (hopefully, unlikely) event that a water pipe could burst and wreak havoc on your studio... This can be, somewhat, circumvented by having the physical location of the bathroom situated somewhere near the rear of the control room part of your structure (in an exterior area so that you don't have any water pipes situated in acoustically sensitive interior areas)... Here's an section from a design for a home/residential studio that I've been working on that my wife and I are planning to build in the near future... Note that there is complete separation from the control room, yet there is still easy access to the bathroom from the control room...The fixtures that require water are all located on an exterior wall, meaning the water supply never has to be fed through ceilings or interior walls (what isn't shown in this sectional is that the hot water heater is located in the garage's utility room which is less than 30' away from the bathroom)... You can build a nice and very functional structure with a $25K budget, but it's probably not going to be nearly as large (or as acoustically "isolated") as you think it will be unless you do a lot of the finishing work and manual labor yourself (or, you can have a "barn-raising" weekend and invite friends who know how to do this kinda stuff)... Good luck on this project! Do it right and you'll get years of enjoyment from it!
post edited by papa2004 - 2006/06/20 02:18:36
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SurfingMusicMan
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RE: Building a studio from scratch
2006/06/20 13:14:33
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Sounds like I'll need to float the walls and ceilings too then.
To clear up some possible confusion, our house does NOT currently have a garage. We're thinking that building a garage with a studio above will raise resale value because the studio can be listed as "mother-in-law quarters," or something that can be rented out. The backyard doesn't have enough room to build both a garage and a separate studio...
All the DIY advice is well received. It just is a little discouraging because I'm so ignorant about stuff like that. I'm afraid I'll never have time to actually do music while I take the time to learn all this crap!
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LettuceCheese
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RE: Building a studio from scratch
2006/06/20 20:17:38
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A vote to keep it single story. I think that you should build a unit that can be easily converted back to a garage. A decent sized single-story garage can barely be built for $25k doing everything yourself. Keep the framing conventional so that you don't have to hire a structural engineer. Also - HVAC will will be a much bigger deal; a second story on a garage with vaulted ceilings - hotter than hell.
Also, as someone mentioned - check out your property tax situation. Putting in plumbing and other stuff that make it livable will add to your bill. (Well, in my county it does). I would bury any future plumbing and add it later without permits.
One last thing from my experience building stuff like this - Calculate your cost, and then add another 20% to get the real cost.
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papa2004
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RE: Building a studio from scratch
2006/06/21 00:51:19
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ORIGINAL: barthowk
Sounds like I'll need to float the walls and ceilings too then.
To clear up some possible confusion, our house does NOT currently have a garage. We're thinking that building a garage with a studio above will raise resale value because the studio can be listed as "mother-in-law quarters," or something that can be rented out. The backyard doesn't have enough room to build both a garage and a separate studio... That being the case, I would recommend you forget the "garage" idea and concentrate your efforts and budget on building a functional structure that can later (like, when you decide to sell) can be converted into a garage or "mother-in-law" quarters... Building a second-story studio (properly designed for acoustic isolation) above a garage will increase the load-bearing factors of your garage's framing structure anyway (ergo, a simple garage will now cost about twice as much)...You could still build it with a vaulted ceiling that could easily be converted into attic space when you put the house on the market and convert the studio into a garage (much easier to do than the opposite)... One thing that you haven't mentioned is whether or not you plan on physically attaching the garage/studio structure to your existing home or if it would be a free-standing building...You also haven't mentioned the property dimensions that you have to work with...
All the DIY advice is well received. It just is a little discouraging because I'm so ignorant about stuff like that. I'm afraid I'll never have time to actually do music while I take the time to learn all this crap!
I would be open to consulting with you (for a nominal--and I do mean nominal--fee) and even provide you with basic floorplan designs using AutoCAD that you could then present to the architect or contractor of your choice for further development... I'm not trying to solicit business from you, I'm merely offering to help out (but I really don't have the time to do it completely pro bono)... If you're interested you can email: marscomplex@bellsouth.net
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SurfingMusicMan
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RE: Building a studio from scratch
2006/06/21 12:25:27
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Would building just the 1 story studio lower my costs below the $25,000 range? I'm guessing not from what you guys are saying. Also, it seems counter-productive to build this thing with the HVAC considerations and everything just to convert it back to a simple garage.
What really sucks about this approach, obviously, is that we wouldn't have a garage.
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yep
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RE: Building a studio from scratch
2006/06/21 13:23:38
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I think your best bet might be to keep the idea of "studio" firmly in quotes. Think of it as building a spare bedroom that you can use as a studio. There are some building techniques using ordinary materials that can improve acoustic isolation somewhat.
The thing is, building a proper "studio" is probably going to be a lot more expensive and incovenient than simply hiring a studio when you need to record, say, a drum kit or whatever. I'm also doubtful that you're going to pull off something that could plausibly be both a studio and saleble as a Mother-in-law quarters-- is the space going to have windows?
The best place to build a studio is in an industrial space, or in a barn in the middle of nowhere-- big, empty, high ceilings, no worries about keeping it "homey," easy to float walls, floors, ceilings, access for big, heavy things to move in and out, etc. Converting part of a suburban home into a full-blown recording studio is the kind of project that often ends up with the "studio" being a big space that takes up several rooms of the house, none of which are completely useable for the purpose intended, and the studio owner/operator spending most of his time sitting in there at the computer, playing through headphones.
Think carefully about what you actually expect to get out of this. An actual full-blown recording studio capable of recording piano, horn sections, drumkits, live bands, etc is hard to do in a residential neighborhood.
Cheers.
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lazarous
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RE: Building a studio from scratch
2006/06/21 13:35:50
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Converting part of a suburban home into a full-blown recording studio is the kind of project that often ends up with the "studio" being a big space that takes up several rooms of the house, none of which are completely useable for the purpose intended, and the studio owner/operator spending most of his time sitting in there at the computer, playing through headphones. Yep, you're going to have to come hang out at our place sometime! lol We're so busy we're turning down work right now, and the studio lounge doubles as my business partner's bedroom. In six months we may both go full time, if the ad agency we've been working with decides to start focusing on videos, jingles and commercials. All out of a basement studio, originally designed to be a project studio for our purposes only. Barthowk, there are many ways to do what you're thinking about doing. I think if I were building a two-story garage, I'd build it thinking that the garage area would be the "tracking" room... the 2nd floor would just be for the control room/lounge area, with the lounge area doubling as a tracking room as well. I think your project is doable, but now and then you'll have to park outside. Corey
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Dave Modisette
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RE: Building a studio from scratch
2006/06/21 13:37:57
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I think the first step anyone should make is to sit and write down on a piece of paper or word processor what the purpose for having a studio is. Then write down who is going to be able to record and how you are going to do it.
Design the studio to meet the purpose. If you are planning on building a commercial studio for hire and you don't already have clientel demanding that you have your own space then rethink everything.
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lazarous
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RE: Building a studio from scratch
2006/06/21 14:04:56
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ORIGINAL: Mod Bod
I think the first step anyone should make is to sit and write down on a piece of paper or word processor what the purpose for having a studio is. Then write down who is going to be able to record and how you are going to do it.
Design the studio to meet the purpose. If you are planning on building a commercial studio for hire and you don't already have clientel demanding that you have your own space then rethink everything.
Dave: Fantastic advice! We built our studio specifically for our own projects, and that was the ONLY thinking we had. Luckily, people really liked the vibe and the product we're putting out, so it's become something more than that. We got lucky. On the other hand, I've been involved in recording in one way, shape or form for over 20 years, and have plenty of people who like to work with me, regardless of where the studio is located. Having our own space is just icing on the cake now. Corey
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yorolpal
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RE: Building a studio from scratch
2006/06/21 14:10:23
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☄ Helpfulby patm300e 2017/06/19 11:19:47
I don't mean to be another naysayer, barthowk but I recently bought and rennovated an existing building for my commercial facility. One of my engineers did most of the painting during down time at our old place. My aunt runs a flooring company and gave me a deal. And one of my best friends (who can build a house by himself from the ground up) and I did all the build-out work. In short, we did it on the cheap...but good solid work. And with all that we still went 2 months and 30% over schedule and budget. From what I understand you're no carpenter...or electrician...or plumber. Even to build a simple garage with bedroom using contract design and labor would be "tightly" stretching a $25,000 budget. Trying to build a commercial ready studio for that is IMHO a pipe dream. Of course I'm not sure exactly what your needs are. For instance I do all my music production for the business in the third bedroom of my home. I found that if I tried to "work while I was AT WORK"...it just...wouldn't work. And my bedroom studio is just that...a bedroom with a bunch of music/recording gear in it instead of a bed. I've got some treatment on the walls and that's it. I've learned it well and produce very good mixes even tho it's not "tweaked out" nor purpose built for audio production. I think ModBod's suggestion is right on target. Sit down with paper in hand and assess your wants and needs. Then with an unflinching eye figure a budget including overage contingencies. $25,000 can buy a lot of heartache if you're not careful.
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Dave Modisette
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RE: Building a studio from scratch
2006/06/21 15:01:25
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☄ Helpfulby glennstanton 2017/06/19 16:43:45
Also, as Yep has mentioned previously, keep in mind that what goes in may have to come out at resale time.
You might consider designing it to be a home theater also. That's what mine will be marketed as when time comes to sell. A home theater with a side study or office.
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Noah330
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RE: Building a studio from scratch
2006/06/21 16:43:05
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ORIGINAL: yorolpal
I don't mean to be another naysayer, barthowk but I recently bought and rennovated an existing building for my commercial facility. One of my engineers did most of the painting during down time at our old place. My aunt runs a flooring company and gave me a deal. And one of my best friends (who can build a house by himself from the ground up) and I did all the build-out work. In short, we did it on the cheap...but good solid work. And with all that we still went 2 months and 30% over schedule and budget. From what I understand you're no carpenter...or electrician...or plumber. Even to build a simple garage with bedroom using contract design and labor would be "tightly" stretching a $25,000 budget. Trying to build a commercial ready studio for that is IMHO a pipe dream. Of course I'm not sure exactly what your needs are. For instance I do all my music production for the business in the third bedroom of my home. I found that if I tried to "work while I was AT WORK"...it just...wouldn't work. And my bedroom studio is just that...a bedroom with a bunch of music/recording gear in it instead of a bed. I've got some treatment on the walls and that's it. I've learned it well and produce very good mixes even tho it's not "tweaked out" nor purpose built for audio production. I think ModBod's suggestion is right on target. Sit down with paper in hand and assess your wants and needs. Then with an unflinching eye figure a budget including overage contingencies. $25,000 can buy a lot of heartache if you're not careful.
I'm in the same situation. Back in the early 90's I ran an 8 track room with a friend and we did tons of band recordings. These days, I mostly do post-production (film, mixing and mastering). I do still record singer/songwriters and I don't have any problems doing that with a couple of spare bedrooms. Just to do my Auralex and get a little equipment it cost me about $12k. I can't imagine what a new construction would cost. Of course, I am in the Northeast where property values are insane right now. I suppose if you're in the mid-west or something. If it's your dream, I say go for it. But I would think to do what you want to do would be more in the 100k range - and even that may be stretching it a bit.
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cAPSLOCK
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RE: Building a studio from scratch
2006/06/22 02:48:46
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Sometimes I think folks get so wrapped up in the ideals they forget that the whole idea we are talking about is just a place to record music. We are not doing brain surgery, or building microprocessors. ;) It doesn't all have to be perfect. Especially if you are not having to impress clients. Either because you are not commercial, or because they are already impressed. Or you don't need to give a crap, because you are a lawyer with a pretty nice dayjob. ;)
I have heard great recordings made in homes. Check out Kevin Gilberts album 'Thud' if you can find it, or the last thing one Pedro the Lion.
"We da da sahw pe paw fidlily-doobee afidlily-dooten-bweebee!" -Shooby
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Noah330
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RE: Building a studio from scratch
2006/06/22 07:17:44
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The more technology advances the less people seem to care about the creation of music. I don't mean this as a reflection on the OP or anyone else, but a few years ago I had a convo with my old studio buddy.
In the old days (15 years ago- not 50) you had a 4 track and no outboard effects. A few mics from Radio Shack (or the oddball $10.00 job from Sears or K-Mart) and that was it. We would make tons of recordings with what we had. I remember having a hi-fi eq that I bought at a junk shop patched in between my master outs and the cassette deck because my four track had two sliders that controlled eq on the whole mix - no per channel eq!
I remember how creative wo would get - I remember putting a speaker in m garage and moving a mic around the room. I sent signal to the speaker and used the mic (at mixdown - to cassette!) to add reverb. I remember doing all kinds of crazy stuff because we had what we had and there was none of the stuff that is today called 'crap'.
We did so many recordings with that setup (there were a lot more bands then it seemed) that we pooled some money and bought a used 8 track r2r, a Peavey 16x6 board and an Alesis Reverb - the tabletop one with the chart on top.
Today, it seems a lot of people (myself included) will complain about preamps and cables and such - technology is great but sometimes I just want to forget all about it and get the old 4 track out and do the best I can with it.
Way off topic, I know. Maybe you don't need to get so crazy about studio construction. The list idea is a very good one!
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yorolpal
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RE: Building a studio from scratch
2006/06/22 10:39:36
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While Kevin's personal habits were a bit suspect his music and production were always amazing and enlightening. But much of his home stuff was mixed and mastered at top notch facilities weren't they? Don't know about "Thud". But the "Shaming of the True" is a revelation. He will be missed...just not by Sheryl Crow. 
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