Cactus Music
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Bundle files? Making folks mad why are they still an option?
I found this in the knowledge base, no wonder people keep using them and are un aware that they generally stopped being dependable a few years ago. Why does Cakewalk still recommend them as a back up? Tips on Backing Up - Bundle FilesBacking up your Cakewalk files - The benefits of the BundleIn the wonderful world of computers, backing up your work is more than a good idea. It's essential when you're using your computer for creative projects. Making backup copies of your Cakewalk files is quick, easy, and can save you some serious headaches, as well as hard drive space.The preferred method for backing up files containing audio data is to save them as Cakewalk Bundle (.BUN) files. Here's how to do it in Cakewalk:- Choose File | Save As.
- Change the Save As Type to Cakewalk Bundle.
- Name the file.
- Choose your saving location, and save the file.
Why use Bundle (.BUN) files rather than Project (.WRK) files for backing up?
First, a quick lesson: A Project (.WRK) file contains MIDI data, project-specific settings, and references to audio data that resides in the location specified by the current Data Directory (Options | Audio | Advanced). Backing up the .WRK file, or transferring the .WRK file from one machine to another, will NOT automatically backup or transfer the audio clip files referenced by that .WRK file. So saving or copying a .WRK file alone is not enough to safeguard your projects or transfer them to a different computer. The .WRK format is perfect for everyday Cakewalk use, and we don't suggest you save as a Bundle every time you save. However, once you've come to a point in a project where you've made significant progress and feel the need to back up the file, the Cakewalk Bundle comes into play.The Bundle (.BUN) format preserves ALL data, audio and otherwise, in one file, which can then be moved to any location you like. Because of this, these files also tend to be quite large and slow to open. You'll need to save your Bundle files on your hard drive, or on some large capacity storage medium such as a CD or tape drive. Once that's done, you can delete the .WRK file version, then use the Clean Audio Disk command to remove the associated audio files (which you don't need because they're saved in the .BUN file now). This will free up space on your hard drive for your next project.When you're ready to work with the project again, simply choose File | Open and navigate to the location of the Bundle file. The file will open with all data preserved just as you left it.
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Guitarmech111
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Re: Bundle files? Making folks mad why are they still an option?
2014/05/03 11:50:52
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looks like they need to update the storage media for large devices to include externaL HARD DRIVES OR THUMB DRIVES WHICH ARE SIGNIFICANTLY LARGER THAN cdS NOW...
Peace, Conley Shepherd Joyful Noise Productions PC config: (Win performance base score = 7.7) ASUS Sabertooth 990 FX -amd fx-8150 - core processor am3+ - 32G Corsair 1066 DDR3 - PNY GTX670 2g gddr5 - Corsair Force SSD 120G - Samsung 750G SATA drives - WD 1tb Black (Audio files) - WD 2TB for storage - RME UFX - USB ASIO 2/2016 drivers Win8  Without a mess, there is no message
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Guitarmech111
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Re: Bundle files? Making folks mad why are they still an option?
2014/05/03 11:52:41
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Peace, Conley Shepherd Joyful Noise Productions PC config: (Win performance base score = 7.7) ASUS Sabertooth 990 FX -amd fx-8150 - core processor am3+ - 32G Corsair 1066 DDR3 - PNY GTX670 2g gddr5 - Corsair Force SSD 120G - Samsung 750G SATA drives - WD 1tb Black (Audio files) - WD 2TB for storage - RME UFX - USB ASIO 2/2016 drivers Win8 Without a mess, there is no message
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Lynn
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Re: Bundle files? Making folks mad why are they still an option?
2014/05/03 11:53:01
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Bundle files have worked for me for well over a decade. I save them in several places, to be safe, but I've had good luck with them being reliable. I'm not sure why you think they're unreliable. I hear this rumor a lot, but I've also heard that they work 100% of the time, too. I know that sometimes people save them to a different hard drive which then goes south, but backing them up to CD or DVD is a good practice in addition to hard drives. The point is: when backing up projects, use several locations and methods if you're paranoid. Or, use Gobbler?
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Cactus Music
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Re: Bundle files? Making folks mad why are they still an option?
2014/05/03 12:09:07
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re: Bundle files? Making folks mad why are they still an option?
2014/05/03 12:27:25
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During the past 8 years or so I think there's been at least one post a week about something wrong with bundles.
They are surely good as long as you don't depend on them.
SONAR PE 8.5.3, Asus P5B, 2,4 Ghz Dual Core, 4 Gb RAM, GF 7300, EMU 1820, Bluetube Pre - Kontakt4, Ozone, Addictive Drums, PSP Mixpack2, Melda Creative Pack, Melodyne Plugin etc. The benefit of being a middle aged amateur is the low number of years of frustration ahead of you.
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ltb
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Re: Bundle files? Making folks mad why are they still an option?
2014/05/03 12:37:56
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Bundles suck.
Before I started using Per Project I lost many projects due to corrupted ones.
I still have some that open but I wouldn't recommend using them to anyone.
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dan le
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Re: Bundle files? Making folks mad why are they still an option?
2014/05/03 15:41:39
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I am with Lynn regarding bundle files.
OK, first of all, you will need like 2 different drives to make 2 different backups, just to be safe.
I usually make the first bundle backup. Then close Sonar, and reopen the bundle file, play it, and once everything is OK, then save it again as a bundle file on another usb drive.
Of course along with a regular cwp file. Just to be sure.
Also, bundle files are great for getting rid of stuff that you don't want it, even after a Clean Audio Folder, which takes a long time by the way.
If any one wants to test this, save any project that you have been working on and off as a bundle file, and look at the size of the bundle file, compared to the size off the audio folder. You will be surprised to see how Clean Audio Folder has not deleted all the stuff that you don't want.
Why I am using bundle files all the time, is the only way to bring the size down, and then after reopening the bundle file, save it again as a cwp file in another folder.
So give it a try before condemning it. If it really sucks like Carl had stated, then probably CW had got rid of it a long time ago.
dan
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bapu
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Re: Bundle files? Making folks mad why are they still an option?
2014/05/03 16:04:46
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I have maybe transferred 10 bundles in the last two years.
Never a problem.
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paulo
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Re: Bundle files? Making folks mad why are they still an option?
2014/05/03 17:21:08
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As others have said, I would never rely on a single back up method for anything that I deem important, but never had a problem with cwb files so far on the occasions I have used them.
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gcolbert
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Re: Bundle files? Making folks mad why are they still an option?
2014/05/03 19:46:50
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I have encountered problems with Bundle files when the project is expanded in a newer version (or an older version) of Sonar. That being said, I frequently use them as a tool to clean up a project that is in progress and ensure that I have all of the correct files for the project. To me, bundle files are an important tool for cleaning up a project.
Glen
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mudgel
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Re: Bundle files? Making folks mad why are they still an option?
2014/05/04 01:55:22
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People have also had cwp files become corrupted but it's not the fault of the file type that has caused the problem. Neither is the file type the problem with bundle files. The fact is that any type of computer data can become corrupted.
Just as in all things computer, have a good backup strategy. I think the real caution with a cwb file is that if it fails to open you've done your data. Though Cakewalk will always help out with recovering the cwb file if you ask.
Mike V. (MUDGEL) STUDIO: Win 10 Pro x64, SPlat & CbB x64, PC: ASUS Z370-A, INTEL i7 8700k, 32GIG DDR4 2400, OC 4.7Ghz. Storage: 7 TB SATA III, 750GiG SSD & Samsung 500 Gig 960 EVO NVMe M.2. Monitors: Adam A7X, JBL 10” Sub. Audio I/O & DSP Server: DIGIGRID IOS & IOX. Screen: Raven MTi + 43" HD 4K TV Monitor. Keyboard Controller: Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88.
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re: Bundle files? Making folks mad why are they still an option?
2014/05/04 07:51:55
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mudgel
People have also had cwp files become corrupted but it's not the fault of the file type that has caused the problem. Neither is the file type the problem with bundle files. The fact is that any type of computer data can become corrupted.
Just as in all things computer, have a good backup strategy. I think the real caution with a cwb file is that if it fails to open you've done your data. Though Cakewalk will always help out with recovering the cwb file if you ask.
Yes. But the ancient backup strategy advice quoted from the Knowledge Base above ( "delete the project file and clean audio disc after saving as bun!!") is simply suicide and idiotic with the memory prices of today.
SONAR PE 8.5.3, Asus P5B, 2,4 Ghz Dual Core, 4 Gb RAM, GF 7300, EMU 1820, Bluetube Pre - Kontakt4, Ozone, Addictive Drums, PSP Mixpack2, Melda Creative Pack, Melodyne Plugin etc. The benefit of being a middle aged amateur is the low number of years of frustration ahead of you.
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paulo
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Re: Bundle files? Making folks mad why are they still an option?
2014/05/04 10:45:20
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gcolbert
I have encountered problems with Bundle files when the project is expanded in a newer version (or an older version) of Sonar. That being said, I frequently use them as a tool to clean up a project that is in progress and ensure that I have all of the correct files for the project. To me, bundle files are an important tool for cleaning up a project.
Glen
"Save as" to a different location will do that anyway if you select the copy all audio to new location option. I only use cwb files as a convenient way of packing up a project when sending to another Sonar user.
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bapu
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Re: Bundle files? Making folks mad why are they still an option?
2014/05/04 11:28:13
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paulo
gcolbert
I have encountered problems with Bundle files when the project is expanded in a newer version (or an older version) of Sonar. That being said, I frequently use them as a tool to clean up a project that is in progress and ensure that I have all of the correct files for the project. To me, bundle files are an important tool for cleaning up a project.
Glen
"Save as" to a different location will do that anyway if you select the copy all audio to new location option. I only use cwb files as a convenient way of packing up a project when sending to another Sonar user.
Paulo has the right of it.
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Cactus Music
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Re: Bundle files? Making folks mad why are they still an option?
2014/05/04 13:20:45
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Well my self I have not used the Bun but I was wondering what the point of them was other than having a one icon delivery system as apposed to a project folder with a CWP icon and an audio folder inside.
My self I find that straight forward.
There seems to be a steady stream of posts by people who have lost everything when using them.
And this one guy, if you visit the old forum right now, seems to have 3 copies backed up and all are corrupted. He is mad because he followed the advice of Cakewalk. So therefor the reason for this thread. The information in the knowledge base is pour advice. You can tell it must be from 12 years ago too!
I tried an experiment.
I made a test project with a audio file and a Midi drum track. Nothing else. No efxs or instruments. I saved it as a CWP per project folder and noted the file size.
I did a save as a CWB and noticed the file was exactly the same size.
So to me the difference must be the audio and midi are all in that icon. One object instead of 2. So what's the point.
As mentioned above performing a "save as" will clean up a CWP file.
I always recommend when asked about back ups to include saving your project as a MIDI file as well as the CWp. This will give you a bullet proof safety copy that can be used on any DAW.
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rifleralph
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Re: Bundle files? Making folks mad why are they still an option?
2014/05/04 15:49:05
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I've lost data using bun files. Never lost anything with basic per project file/folder storage.
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vintagevibe
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Re: Bundle files? Making folks mad why are they still an option?
2014/05/04 16:35:24
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Never had problem and have used them for 20 years.
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John
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Re: Bundle files? Making folks mad why are they still an option?
2014/05/04 17:18:29
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I have not found a problem with bun files. Also as to why they are still an option is so those that do have them can access them. Nothing else will as far as I know.
Full disclosure I don't normally use them but the few I have work. My view is that a system that is working well should not have any trouble creating them.
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Cactus Music
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Re: Bundle files? Making folks mad why are they still an option?
2014/05/05 00:23:08
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So this is a interesting topic.seems like a 50/50 split on love/ hate the bun.
Now my curiosity is wondering what it is that makes these files go bad for some people and not for others? The error message most get says the audio format is corrupted? So is this a changed sample rate? Bit depth? what changed. Or is the encryption code badly written.
If it's just the audio format changing then these people should have no trouble opening them if they re create the original environment, right? This is a regular case of user error.
But- If it's sloppy code then the "I hate the bun " club is justifiably correct.
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scook
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Re: Bundle files? Making folks mad why are they still an option?
2014/05/05 00:32:34
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They may not go bad. They could be malformed from the beginning. They could get corrupted due to disk failure. I have read about a known problem with RIFF files mixing mono and stereo waves in Win 7. Don't know how to perform a postmortem on a failed bundle. Bundle failures are catastrophic. I believe it is possible to break out the project and the waves by hand using a hex editor but I have not had the pleasure.
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soens
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Re: Bundle files? Making folks mad why are they still an option?
2014/05/05 17:28:40
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mudgel
People have also had cwp files become corrupted but it's not the fault of the file type that has caused the problem. Neither is the file type the problem with bundle files. The fact is that any type of computer data can become corrupted.
For sure! I've had way more issues with corrupt WRK/CWPs than BUN/CWBs. Though I haven't really used them since the X series started, it's possible the trouble with BUNs may start with a bad project file. The issue may also be related to creating the BUN in one version and opening it in another, especially a pre-X file in X. If I were afraid of them I would take the time to wrap a project in a Windows ZIP folder.
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mudgel
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Re: Bundle files? Making folks mad why are they still an option?
2014/05/08 08:47:04
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Whenever I've used cwb files I've always expanded them again to make sure that everything works fine before relying n them. I do the same with zip or other compressed file data. After creating an archive always test it to make sure that none of the files are corrupted.
Mike V. (MUDGEL) STUDIO: Win 10 Pro x64, SPlat & CbB x64, PC: ASUS Z370-A, INTEL i7 8700k, 32GIG DDR4 2400, OC 4.7Ghz. Storage: 7 TB SATA III, 750GiG SSD & Samsung 500 Gig 960 EVO NVMe M.2. Monitors: Adam A7X, JBL 10” Sub. Audio I/O & DSP Server: DIGIGRID IOS & IOX. Screen: Raven MTi + 43" HD 4K TV Monitor. Keyboard Controller: Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88.
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rbowser
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Re: Bundle files? Making folks mad why are they still an option?
2014/05/08 09:25:31
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Over the years I've only used Bundles for long-distance collaborations. It's certainly the slickest way to have other people receive, open and work with a project. Otherwise, archiving project folders which contain the .cwp version files (however many there may be) and the sub-folder of audio data is tidy, and doesn't involve unpacking. Simple. I don't want to deal with opening a bundle, saving it again and yadda yadda.
Randy B.
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Grem
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Re: Bundle files? Making folks mad why are they still an option?
2014/05/08 09:45:50
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mudgel
Whenever I've used cwb files I've always expanded them again to make sure that everything works fine before relying n them. I do the same with zip or other compressed file data. After creating an archive always test it to make sure that none of the files are corrupted.
And here is the key to success with bun files (or any backup for that matter!)
Grem
Michael Music PC i7 2600K; 64gb Ram; 3 256gb SSD, System, Samples, Audio; 1TB & 2TB Project Storage; 2TB system BkUp; RME FireFace 400; Win 10 Pro 64; CWbBL 64, Home PCAMD FX 6300; 8gb Ram; 256 SSD sys; 2TB audio/samples; Realtek WASAPI; Win 10 Home 64; CWbBL 64 Surface Pro 3Win 10 i7 8gb RAM; CWbBL 64
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dan le
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Re: Bundle files? Making folks mad why are they still an option?
2014/05/08 10:34:32
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""I tried an experiment.
I made a test project with a audio file and a Midi drum track. Nothing else. No efxs or instruments. I saved it as a CWP per project folder and noted the file size.""
Hi Cactus Music, you wrote this and you are also the OP.
I stated that the bundle file works very well as far as REDUCING THE SIZE, only on a project when you have made a lot of changes, and or recording and re-recordings.
Save As onto another folder still does not solve this.
For example, I have a song that I have been working on for 1 month now.
Right now, the Audio folder is 1.4 gig long.
Save As to another folder brings it down to 850 MGB.
Save as Bundle brings it down to 700 MBG. Then open the bundle file and save again as a cwp file, now brings it down to the same size, plus or minus a few bytes.
I have done this all the time and the bundle file is the only way to bring it down to the minimum size.
All I am saying is yes I save by using the cwp method. For sure. But I also save every song as a bundle file too.
That's it. Why not using 2 methods for peace of mind when it is available to you. Besides the fact that it get rid of the stuff that you no longer need.
dan
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Grem
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Re: Bundle files? Making folks mad why are they still an option?
2014/05/08 11:20:35
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dan le
Besides the fact that it get rid of the stuff that you no longer need.
dan
I'm going to give this a try.
Grem
Michael Music PC i7 2600K; 64gb Ram; 3 256gb SSD, System, Samples, Audio; 1TB & 2TB Project Storage; 2TB system BkUp; RME FireFace 400; Win 10 Pro 64; CWbBL 64, Home PCAMD FX 6300; 8gb Ram; 256 SSD sys; 2TB audio/samples; Realtek WASAPI; Win 10 Home 64; CWbBL 64 Surface Pro 3Win 10 i7 8gb RAM; CWbBL 64
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Cactus Music
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Re: Bundle files? Making folks mad why are they still an option?
2014/05/08 14:16:27
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OK, but my experiment was to prove to myself that Bun files did not compress the audio. If they did the file which was just a 3 minute MP3 which was 4.3 MB song I imported, and so then became 43 MB because Sonar up converts to 32 Bit wave. It would have shown a difference in file size if the buns compressed the audio right?
Both the CWP and the CWB where identical in file size and only a few KB bigger than a 3 minute stereo wave file.In other words the CWP or CWB icon uses very little data, we all know midi is in the KB's not MB's. File size is all to do with our audio.
So what your saying is a Bun file does some sort of cleaning of the audio folder? interesting.
I always was under the impression that performing a "save as" of an open project only saved the active audio files and left behind any old takes and deleted edits.
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scook
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Re: Bundle files? Making folks mad why are they still an option?
2014/05/08 14:44:36
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A bundle is a file created by appending a cwp with the audio referenced in the cwp. The only "compression" I am aware of is the where multiple regions are "flattened" into a single chunk of audio. This activity is why bundles cannot store audio snap data. I would guess the cwp is written out specially for the bundle which in addition to removing audio snap data may explain why it would decrease in size.
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dan le
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Re: Bundle files? Making folks mad why are they still an option?
2014/05/09 15:25:48
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Hi Cactus Music: Yes it does get rid of stuff that you already: 1. deleted or 2. apply trimming. So on and so forth. Like I said many times on different threads here, you have to take an old project and do the bun file thing, and see that the size of the bun file is smaller than the combined length of the audio folder (even after you save as in another folder). And only if you already did a whole bunch of editing, play over and over some tracks, etc... That is why I am still using bun file, basically to bring down the size of the project. Yes, hard drive is cheap nowaday, but if the unwanted tracks are still there in a cwp file, you never know when they are going to show up when you go back to the project and do some more editing. I just want to be sure. That's all. And I never understand why people have to feel so negatively about something like a bundle file.  It is a tool, a good one instead. I charge my customers, so I don't want to make any mistake at all. Now if you do music just for yourself, then you can do anything you want to. I guess. Cheers. dan ps: again if you create a brand new project, with no editing, then bundle or cwp file will be at the same size.
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