Helpful Reply“But Sonar sounds like Sonar”

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bdickens
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/16 17:43:48 (permalink)
Two words: confirmation bias.

Digital audio is digital audio. DAW software is not responsible for the sound quality. Hardware ( converters) is.

Byron Dickens
#31
konradh
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/16 19:01:12 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Zargg 2017/11/16 19:11:05
I find Sonar to have an oaky sound with undercurrents of leather in the 12K region and a slightly damp, earthy bouquet.
 
Cubase, on the other hand, is a touch tannic with floral cross-bit aliasing.

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#32
cparmerlee
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/16 20:41:19 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Zargg 2017/11/16 20:47:54
Anderton
mixes done with only 5 letters instead of 6 will have lower resolution.

DP must really suck.

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Magic Russ
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/16 23:02:36 (permalink)
jackson white
Every DAW has a bottleneck.


Mine has metal slides because otherwise the glass breaks when I knock it over.

Check Out my presets for Rapture Classic
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#34
John T
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/17 02:08:20 (permalink)
"Grainy" is a very subjective and ill defined term, and I'm being generous there. "Bottlenecking in the summing department" actually means nothing at all. This person is entitled to their view, but why anyone would take it seriously is beyond my understanding.

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John T
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/17 02:09:59 (permalink)
konradh
I find Sonar to have an oaky sound with undercurrents of leather in the 12K region and a slightly damp, earthy bouquet.
 
Cubase, on the other hand, is a touch tannic with floral cross-bit aliasing.


Give Ableton a try. It has a girthy foaminess that I find compliments modern waxy productions particularly well. Especially if you use a lot of oomny sounds.

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#36
M@
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/17 07:49:16 (permalink)
konradh
I find Sonar to have an oaky sound with undercurrents of leather in the 12K region and a slightly damp, earthy bouquet.
 
Cubase, on the other hand, is a touch tannic with floral cross-bit aliasing.


You should try Sonar's mahagoni theme. It reduces the dampness a little and adds some very subtle notes of vanilla and berries.

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subtlearts
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/17 09:46:43 (permalink)
M@
konradh
I find Sonar to have an oaky sound with undercurrents of leather in the 12K region and a slightly damp, earthy bouquet.
 
Cubase, on the other hand, is a touch tannic with floral cross-bit aliasing.


You should try Sonar's mahagoni theme. It reduces the dampness a little and adds some very subtle notes of vanilla and berries.

 
I'm thinking there's an opportunity here. Cakewalk should totally capitalize on this, following the whisky industry in releasing an endless series of double-casked special editions complete with tasting notes. Hey it would be a way to squeeze a bit more money out of all us lifers! Imagine:
 
Sonar Havana Edition, specially aged in Cuban rum casks for that smokey, leathery sound...
Sonar Quinta Porto, with its unmistakeable sweetness in the low mids...
Sonar Lasanta, finished in both Oloroso and Pedro Ximenez sherry casks for full-spectrum deliciousness... 
Sonar Madeira Wood, with its fresh, tangy citrus overtones...
 

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#38
Starise
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/17 16:44:29 (permalink)
I see drugs are still alive and well in the recording industry.

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#39
Tim Flannagin
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/17 22:54:33 (permalink)
M@
konradh
I find Sonar to have an oaky sound with undercurrents of leather in the 12K region and a slightly damp, earthy bouquet.
 
Cubase, on the other hand, is a touch tannic with floral cross-bit aliasing.


You should try Sonar's mahagoni theme. It reduces the dampness a little and adds some very subtle notes of vanilla and berries.

Mmmm.... Vanilla and berries. That'd be awesome with the white wine talent enhancement vst.

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#40
olive2sing
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/18 00:24:28 (permalink)
I recommend SONAR banana peal, it has slicker lead tones

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#41
BRuys
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/18 05:45:06 (permalink)
Two words:
Double Blind.
 
Anything else is blowing smoke and means absolutely nothing.  I would say, however, that maybe a perceived "sound" comes from the bundled plugins that get a lot of use and as a result, become the "sound" of a DAW by association.  But even that is probably giving too much credit to the idea.
 
Bill.
#42
mudgel
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/18 20:49:56 (permalink)
olive2sing
I recommend SONAR banana peal, it has slicker lead tones


Mmmm. Sounds a peeling.

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#43
jude77
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/20 16:20:10 (permalink)
bdickens
Two words: confirmation bias.

Digital audio is digital audio. DAW software is not responsible for the sound quality. Hardware ( converters) is.

So true.  As soon as we make up our minds we look for evidence to support our conclusion. 

You haven't lived until you've taken the Rorschach.
 
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#44
papacucku
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/20 21:15:30 (permalink)
The summing question for DAW comparison is not new.  The individual audio (unmixed, unpanned etc) has been analyzed many times and in a single model... ASIO for example has generally been acknowledged to be identical across DAWS. 
 
The actual volume of the summing is measurable in a non subjective way (DB) and there was no real differences there on the comparisons I have seen online.   After the native initial audio is saved, further mixing and processing in the digital world might create variations that could "sum" to be noticeable. Someone could/should do a diff on the resulting wavs.
 
Whatevs man. Check this quote out....
 
"for music distribution, 16 Bit @ 44.1 kHz (CD standard) is indistinguishable from 24 Bit @ 192 kHz in a sample of listeners. In other words, more bits and higher bit-rates are not going to improve the 'quality' of your tracks".    --from the article referenced above from imageline. 
 
Horse pucky.  If you don't hear a difference in a mix or of audio at 44 and 192 you might consider getting a checkup.  When I changed several DAW projects over to 192 K from 44 and it was like being able to hear for the fist time.   
 
 

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#45
bitman
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/20 21:25:31 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby arlen2133 2017/11/20 22:55:38
Yep SONAR sounds like SONAR alright. And that is why we use it.
 
#46
Jeff Evans
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/20 21:27:26 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby arlen2133 2017/11/20 22:55:46
I did an experiment some time ago summing an exact mix into 4 DAW's. Logic, ProTools, Sonar and Studio One.  No plugins used though just level and panning. (Panning was also only L,C,R as well.) I got identical result from all 4.  I could null any two of them.  A room full of experts could not hear it either.  The moment you start using plugins in any of them, then all bets are off.  There will always be differences then.  It is not the summing engines that sound different.  It is everything else that sounds different. 
 
I also did another experiment earlier too. I had a turntable with the finest pickup known to man playing back a very high quality vinyl recording (Sheffield Lab stuff) The pickup had frequency response to 50kHz as well. (Ortofon SL15Q) Used a $1000 RIAA equaliser preamp too.  This signal went to one side of an A/B switcher.  I also fed the signal into A to D and D to A converter at 44.1K and 16 bit.  And put that on the other side of the switch box.  So in one position you were hearing the turntable direct and in the other the A-D D-A version of that sound at 44.1K 16 bit.  Perfectly level matched of course.
 
Room full of engineers with amazing ears could not pick either.  So to papacucko I say horse pucky.  You would not have a hope in hell in a blind test like this.
 
On this sampling rate issue you might want to read this:
 
https://www.mixonline.com/recording/emperors-new-sampling-rate-365968
 
 

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#47
BenMMusTech
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/20 23:33:53 (permalink)
stm113cw
Sahaj Ticotin who is/was the brilliantly talented vocalist for a band named RA and apperantly does work for other people now posted on FB about some of the features in Cubase 9.5 like 64bit floating processing, built in melodyne, vocal align to which I casually mentioned that Sonar Platinum has had his kind of stuff for a while.

His reply is “but Sonar sounds like Sonar”. I asked for clarification and he said “A little grainy with a bit of bottlenecking in the summing dept. At least to my ears...”

Not trying to start a war but, is this a common assessment of Sonar?



 
Ok here goes...Cubase apparently have only just added 64bitfp to their software. Correct me if I'm wrong but Sonar has had 64bitfp since version 8 - so at least 10 years. 
 
Sonar does sound grainy - if you don't engage the 64bit fp engine and upsampling, and so does every other DAW on the market. I even have upsampling switched on when I'm mixing and recording at 96khz. I know this because, as a creative...sure I have degrees in audio production, music technology, sonic art and even fine art lol, my point being I'm a real musician not an engineer as such, but I've got work I've been working on since 2000, and I've mixed these projects at 24bit, 32bit and now 64bitfp. The difference is light and day. And I can make this claim because I know the music so well and because I've trained my ears (I use AKG 712s headphones for mixing - monitors are useless when trying to hear the level of detail needed to dial in emulated THD, and indeed if you are creating surround sound for headphones with ambisonics).
 
When I finally heard what I was adding in, in regards to the analogue emulation aesthetic or THD, and when I switched on Sonar's 64bit fp mix engine along with upsampling...I finally understood the digital audio paradigm. And this was only a few months ago. 64bit fp is the software solution to the digital hardware problem - jitter and dynamic range. The problem is, not too many people actually understand this - especially the old school analogue engineers. This means, and creates another a problem. These old school engineers tend to send signals in and out of the box, so they can mix with outboard processors, meaning they can never take advantage of the 64bitfp mix engine. Once inside the box, the audio cannot be sent out again to analogue gear - unless it's the final master and is being sent for physical distributions.
 
I'm not sure about other DAWs and their mix engines...hmm Profools always sounded crap to me...but its been a few years, and I'm not sure if their propitiatory effects were even written to process at 32bitfp back in the day, but I'm not sure about other DAWs - however if you use a Windows machine for music production...I see no reason to use any other DAW. Furthermore, and finally...the person writing on Facebook that said 'Sonar was grainy' was talking bumpkin...and was probably not using Sonar's 64 bit mix engine. Ask him that question, I'd be keen to know what his answer is.
 
I hope that answers the OPs question - I know I can go off-topic lol. I'm a mad scientist...what do you expect?
Ben

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#48
rabeach
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/21 02:37:52 (permalink)
Sonar's lowpass filter's passband frequency response in it's sample rate converters (SRCs) is more narrow than protools, logic, cubase, reaper, mixbus, samplitude, and fl studio. The design parameter is that it should be less than one-half of the sampling frequency. So it complies with that but I think cakewalk would have to address why they opted to design it this way.  http://src.infinitewave.ca/   The data was collected from X3.
This might impart some difference in sound that possibly could be heard by discerning ears, certainly it could be measured.
#49
mettelus
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/21 02:50:58 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby John 2017/11/21 03:06:57
I would have marked Jeff's post as helpful, but it has already been done (thanks for posting that Jeff). For the OP, just be aware also of a writer's bias... in the days of the internet, there is no requirement to validate opinions, and the ratio of opinions to facts is growing rapidly (for the worst IMO). When you come across people with hard-core stances who never offer a lick of supporting information, the saying "Opinions are like buttholes... everyone has one" may be applicable. Take it with a grain of salt (and walk away).
 
For Ben, I believe SONAR 6 as the introduction of 64-bit, c. 2005.

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#50
John
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/21 03:05:45 (permalink)
Jeff Evans
I did an experiment some time ago summing an exact mix into 4 DAW's. Logic, ProTools, Sonar and Studio One.  No plugins used though just level and panning. (Panning was also only L,C,R as well.) I got identical result from all 4.  I could null any two of them.  A room full of experts could not hear it either.  The moment you start using plugins in any of them, then all bets are off.  There will always be differences then.  It is not the summing engines that sound different.  It is everything else that sounds different. 
 
I also did another experiment earlier too. I had a turntable with the finest pickup known to man playing back a very high quality vinyl recording (Sheffield Lab stuff) The pickup had frequency response to 50kHz as well. (Ortofon SL15Q) Used a $1000 RIAA equaliser preamp too.  This signal went to one side of an A/B switcher.  I also fed the signal into A to D and D to A converter at 44.1K and 16 bit.  And put that on the other side of the switch box.  So in one position you were hearing the turntable direct and in the other the A-D D-A version of that sound at 44.1K 16 bit.  Perfectly level matched of course.
 
Room full of engineers with amazing ears could not pick either.  So to papacucko I say horse pucky.  You would not have a hope in hell in a blind test like this.
 
On this sampling rate issue you might want to read this:
 
https://www.mixonline.com/recording/emperors-new-sampling-rate-365968
 
 


We are on the same page! 

Best
John
#51
Anderton
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/21 03:50:31 (permalink)
Jeff Evans
On this sampling rate issue you might want to read this:
 
https://www.mixonline.com/recording/emperors-new-sampling-rate-365968

 
I agree that playback at 96 kHz is a non-starter, I never met anyone who could tell the difference between a 96 kHz master and the same master sample-rate-converted to 44.1 kHz. BUT do remember that if you're recording inside the box, 96 kHz can make a substantial difference in sound quality for reasons I've explained many times over. Fortunately SONAR's upsampling can give equivalent results but AFAIK, it's the only DAW that offers this option.
 
 

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#52
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/21 03:57:43 (permalink)
Jeff Evans
I did an experiment some time ago summing an exact mix into 4 DAW's. Logic, ProTools, Sonar and Studio One.  No plugins used though just level and panning. (Panning was also only L,C,R as well.) I got identical result from all 4.  I could null any two of them.  A room full of experts could not hear it either.  The moment you start using plugins in any of them, then all bets are off.  There will always be differences then.  It is not the summing engines that sound different.  It is everything else that sounds different. 

 
Does anyone mix songs without using plugs?
 
If "all bets are off" when plugs are used, then yes, all daws sound different when used to their proper potential.
 
 
 

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#53
BenMMusTech
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/21 06:01:17 (permalink)
 
 
post edited by BenMMusTech - 2017/11/21 06:23:00

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BJN
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/21 12:12:09 (permalink)
A Horses arse statement if ever I heard one.
One can bet he has never even tried Sonar.
He can be forgiven as we know he is blind for not looking and not take too much offence to his uninformed blindness.
 
 

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#55
John T
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/21 12:29:15 (permalink)
rabeach
Sonar's lowpass filter's passband frequency response in it's sample rate converters (SRCs) is more narrow than protools, logic, cubase, reaper, mixbus, samplitude, and fl studio. The design parameter is that it should be less than one-half of the sampling frequency. So it complies with that but I think cakewalk would have to address why they opted to design it this way.  http://src.infinitewave.ca/   The data was collected from X3.
This might impart some difference in sound that possibly could be heard by discerning ears, certainly it could be measured.


That's interesting, but worth noting for the record that it's a bit of a fringe factor. I work in Sonar all day every day, and I reckon I do sample rate conversions maybe twice a year, tops.

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subtlearts
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/21 12:33:53 (permalink)
Jeff Evans
I did an experiment some time ago summing an exact mix into 4 DAW's... I got identical result from all 4.  I could null any two of them.  A room full of experts could not hear it either.  



I sure hope a room full of experts could not hear a difference between files that null with each other! Otherwise, wait, what were they experts in again? 
 
rabeach
Sonar's lowpass filter's passband frequency response in it's sample rate converters (SRCs) is more narrow than protools, logic, cubase, reaper, mixbus, samplitude, and fl studio. The design parameter is that it should be less than one-half of the sampling frequency. So it complies with that but I think cakewalk would have to address why they opted to design it this way.  http://src.infinitewave.ca/   The data was collected from X3.
This might impart some difference in sound that possibly could be heard by discerning ears, certainly it could be measured.


I'd forgotten about that site, good to see it's still there and relatively up to date. These measurements have to do with SRC from 96 to 44.1, so if you're not doing that, it obviously doesn't apply. Still, it's good to be reminded... if absolute pristine quality is of the utmost importance, maybe it's better to export a mix at 96 (if it was recorded there) and downsample it as needed with something else... I like the look of the iZotope curves (and have used them for years) but in fact I seriously doubt that in most listening environments it would make a perceptible difference. Maybe even to a room full of experts! (see above )
 

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#57
Jeff Evans
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/21 13:10:11 (permalink)
Hey that was real funny it made me laugh!  Yes all the experts were there listening to the nulls and we could all hear the silence so well!   I have to be careful how I phrase things!
 
Well doing a mix with no plugins is rare for sure.  But these raw tracks were just amazing.  It was at the time I was working for Roland Australia selling the V700 system.  They employed this great engineer to record a great live band. Very classy indeed.  The tracks were so well recorded all you had to do was push up the faders and get a balance, some panning and it was a perfect pristine mix!  (Masterclass in mic choices and placement)  This is rare I do agree.  But ideal for comparing summing busses though. (mainly because the end mix sounded so good with no processing anywhere)
 
I guess the difference might be in the stock plugins and of course people using different third party plug-ins set differently in each DAW.  If you used the same third party plugins in all 4 DAW's and applied exact settings to each I would imagine those nulls would also happen.  I tested the nulls at home before the listening test with the engineers of course but they did null rather well in fact.  So it does sort of prove at least summing engines are very similar.  The listening test was also pretty interesting.  No one had any idea what DAW they were listening to.
 
By the way I did a similar test recently comparing Studio One to Mixbus.  I recorded my son playing drums with a multi track session.  Set up exactly the same mix on both systems. i.e. no processing in Studio One.  However with Mixbus I also urned off all processing and used no saturation etc.. Also got a complete null as well.  So there is no magic Mixbus sound buried in the summing engine at all in fact.  The Mixbus sound (and it is good too) comes from elsewhere. 
 
I agree with Craig re using higher sampling rates during the production though.  Native Instruments Prism can sound pretty different at 96K compared to 44.1K for sure.  (for some sounds, not all)  But the 96K sound can be downsampled back to 44.1K and the 96K sound is still there.  So yes, higher sampling rates (don't need 192 though) can be useful during the production.  Not so needy at the end though. 

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#58
bitflipper
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/21 13:22:34 (permalink)
It's not unusual for specific converters to do better at one sample rate over another, but that's not due to some intrinsic superiority of a particular rate. Rather, it's because the engineers (talking real engineers, not us knob-twisters) made calculated design decisions based on how they presumed their products would be used. Prism, Apollo, Lavry, etc. are optimized for 96 KHz.


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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/21 14:28:16 (permalink)
All good points.  Just FYI, I am talking about mixing several VSTI and audio tracks in sonar at 96 as compared to 44.   If you don't hear a difference in a mix or of audio at 44 and 192.   I doubt I can discern an individual track.  With VSTI resolution and upsampling if you have not tried this and your processor can handle it.  Amazing.  (I should mention I still use an RME multiface2).  I do think there is no reason to doubt that audio is just as subjective if not more than other things.  Have you ever switched back and forth between Fox news and CNN? Or paid attention to the officiating in professional sports even with instant replay?  Sometimes you find yourself looking at your friend in amazement like "are we looking at the same thing?"  Funny.  I downloaded pro tools first on my rig last night.  It hosed my ilok manager installation and would never actually start just kept spinning. tsk tsk.  Silly wabbit. 

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