Helpful Reply“But Sonar sounds like Sonar”

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stm113cw
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2017/11/15 21:16:07 (permalink)

“But Sonar sounds like Sonar”

Sahaj Ticotin who is/was the brilliantly talented vocalist for a band named RA and apperantly does work for other people now posted on FB about some of the features in Cubase 9.5 like 64bit floating processing, built in melodyne, vocal align to which I casually mentioned that Sonar Platinum has had his kind of stuff for a while.

His reply is “but Sonar sounds like Sonar”. I asked for clarification and he said “A little grainy with a bit of bottlenecking in the summing dept. At least to my ears...”

Not trying to start a war but, is this a common assessment of Sonar?
#1
Poco
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/15 21:20:02 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tlw 2017/11/15 23:28:35
"At least to my ears...”  Unless his ears are calibrated with an oscilloscope, it's all in his imagination.  Put him in a room with several identical recordings made on different DAW platforms, and I guarantee you he wouldn't know one from the other.

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#2
chuckebaby
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/15 21:41:30 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Leee 2017/11/17 00:39:12
didn't you reply " it may also be one of the many reasons my stuff doesn’t come out pro sounding" ?
Come on man, Bottlenecking in the summing dept ? I've heard better excuses from a potato.
 
Im not going to squat on Cubase. its a great DAW and has some great features. My guitarist uses it.
But even he asks me why my mix's sound better than his. not once have I ever rambled off some crap about bottleneck summing. This guy is a fraud. I've told my guitarist the truth. I have better 3rd party plug ins .
Its not the DAW, its the one behind the DAW.

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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/15 21:42:20 (permalink)
I totally agree with Poco.
It's all in his mind.
All the best.

Ken Nilsen
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#4
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/15 21:56:23 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby outland144k 2017/11/16 02:15:04
That's hilarious. Maybe in his mind 2 + 2 does not always equal 4, but I'm pretty sure it does whether it's PC or Mac, SONAR or Cubase. 
 
Now if anyone truly is suffering from the embarrassment of "bottlenecking" while summing, what you need is my patented summing bottle scrubber - only $1,000.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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#5
azslow3
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/15 22:13:19 (permalink)
Google points to endless number of discussions. The summary:
DAWs should not sound different. What they should do (exact) is pure mathematic, there is no place for different "interpretations", like there is for example in FX processing. But:
a) not all commonly used algorithms exist in all DAWs (such as pan laws, special forms of dithering, particular precision during calculations, etc).
b) in any program there is at least one bug (except in TeX... at least no one has found the next one for a while )
c) there can be different approaches and so results when it comes to the "border" conditions, f.e. when something is digitally clipping.
 
Note that to claim "Sonar sounds like Sonar" the person had to spend quite some time in Sonar. Even to put several tracks together, adjust fader levels and export the result, a ton of (Sonar specific) options has to be checked and set correctly. Such person can be easily trolled with the question "how much time you was using Sonar before you have started to recognize its distinct sound?"

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#6
stm113cw
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/15 22:26:03 (permalink)
Thank you guys. I’ve always felt that a DAW should be transparent until you PUT something on it to make it not be. I’ve always assumed that it’s all math, but I’m not good at math so what do I know? I politely ended the conversation with some self deprecating humor about my lack of skill and talent because I still want to respect the guy and like his music.
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telecharge
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/15 22:54:34 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tlw 2017/11/15 23:43:37
Here's more propaganda from a Cakewalk competitor! ;)
 
https://www.image-line.com/support/flstudio_online_manual/html/app_audio.htm
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thedukewestern
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/15 23:53:15 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby jude77 2017/11/20 16:09:10
Theres way too many factors about digital recording that DO change, to put the blame on the 1 thing that does not change... math....

Be the first one who thinks that you can
 
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#9
John
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/15 23:59:27 (permalink)
Through my life I have used just about every DAW out there. Its a much smaller list of those I haven't used. I do think Sonar does have a sound. It is in the pro channel.. If one does not employ the PC there is no difference in the sound of Sonar and any other DAW if any said DAW is also not using plugins that alter the sound. I kind of like the "sound of Sonar".
 
I was watching the TV show Scorpion Monday when the "brilliant" leader of the group was recording on an old Radio Shack cassette recorder. He was questioned on his choice of gear. His answer was and I quote was " I get a better signal to noise ratio with analog gear". I kid you not!
 
Its hard sometimes understanding the thinking behind why people think the way they do.      

Best
John
#10
Pragi
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/16 00:07:32 (permalink)
"Bottlenecking in the summing dept ?"
 
Don´t know why he is blaming Sonar ,
seems to be a behaviour of the "PT PRO"s, to bash Sonar.
 
You are paying respect for this man,
did he do this to Sonar and you ?
 
regards and cheers
 
 
#11
sharke
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/16 00:57:41 (permalink)
John
Through my life I have used just about every DAW out there. Its a much smaller list of those I haven't used. I do think Sonar does have a sound. It is in the pro channel.. If one does not employ the PC there is no difference in the sound of Sonar and any other DAW if any said DAW is also not using plugins that alter the sound. I kind of like the "sound of Sonar".
 
I was watching the TV show Scorpion Monday when the "brilliant" leader of the group was recording on an old Radio Shack cassette recorder. He was questioned on his choice of gear. His answer was and I quote was " I get a better signal to noise ratio with analog gear". I kid you not!
 
Its hard sometimes understanding the thinking behind why people think the way they do.      




 
The ProChannel is nothing more than a set of effects though. If you enable the ProChannel but don't turn on any of the modules, there is absolutely no difference in the sound. If you could extract those PC modules as VST's and loaded them up into Cubase, it would sound exactly the same as enabling the modules in Sonar. 

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sharke
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/16 01:01:19 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Pragi 2017/11/16 01:09:47
It's a pity his Facebook page is closed off for commenting to non friends, because I'd honestly love to go there and tell him how utterly deluded he is. I hate people spreading baseless myths like this. 
 
Can anyone remember a few years ago, some guy was complaining that the timing of 16th hi-hats programmed in Sonar's piano roll sounded too "sterile" to him, whereas in some other DAW (Cubase?) they had some kind of inherent groove that he preferred? I really don't know where people come up with this nonsense but it's certainly not from within the realm of objective reason. 
 

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Anderton
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/16 01:04:36 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Pragi 2017/11/16 01:09:56
I'm sorry, but all of you have it wrong.
 
"Cubase" has six letters.
"SONAR" has only five letters.
 
Think about it. Clearly, mixes done with only 5 letters instead of 6 will have lower resolution.

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DrLumen
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/16 01:08:48 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Pragi 2017/11/16 01:10:12
I suspect he is not using the correct cables for his particular setup and why his system has bottlenecks.
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#15
John
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/16 02:59:59 (permalink)
Bottleneck? Is that a technical term?

Best
John
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Tim Flannagin
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/16 03:13:59 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby John 2017/11/16 03:46:31
Sonar sounds like Sonar... but isn't that why we bought it? LOL!

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Thedoccal
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/16 03:55:05 (permalink)
I opened up my latest Sonar project in NOTEPAD.  It took 6 hours.  I did not see a single 1 or 0 out of place.

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jackson white
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/16 04:06:20 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby jude77 2017/11/20 16:11:26
Every DAW has a bottleneck.
 
It's the person using it...

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#19
Brian Walton
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/16 04:07:02 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby panup 2017/11/18 21:08:48
Facebook is a platform where only the most knowledgeable individuals are allowed to post factual information.
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cparmerlee
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/16 04:25:46 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Thedoccal 2017/11/16 04:33:49
chuckebaby
not once have I ever rambled off some crap about bottleneck summing.

Does anybody even know what "summing in the bottleneck division" even means?
 
Check out the automated jargon generator, which comes up with stuff like:
 
"The problem is this headroom has its own multi-track AV sample. If you had just gone with the resonant tone, it would have been easier to EQ."
 
and
"You should try using the stereo AGC fader, it will level your aliased processor like you wouldn't believe."

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#21
AT
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/16 05:50:55 (permalink)
Protools had the original "summing bottleneck" with only 48 bits.  Sonar had (and has) 64 bits to open that bottle on the side of the curb.

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Larry Jones
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/16 06:30:25 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Zargg 2017/11/16 09:39:40
Anderton
I'm sorry, but all of you have it wrong.
 
"Cubase" has six letters.
"SONAR" has only five letters.
 
Think about it. Clearly, mixes done with only 5 letters instead of 6 will have lower resolution.


The letters in SONAR are caps, though. Just sayin'.

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#23
rabeach
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/16 06:48:53 (permalink)
floating-point addition is not necessarily associative; (a + b) + c is not necessarily equal to a + (b + c). addition and multiplication are also not necessarily distributive; (a + b) × c may not be the same as a × c + b × c. since the order of computations in floating point math can produce differences in the end results, it seems plausible that different DAWs may not perfectly null. i would expect these variances to be extremely small and insignificant and undetectable by ear but who knows maybe they build up. :-) i'm not sure why it matters.
#24
Anderton
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/16 06:50:25 (permalink)
cparmerlee
You should try using the stereo AGC fader, it will level your aliased processor like you wouldn't believe.



Wow, that was fantastic advice! THANK YOU!! It brings a pert, yet unassuming, character that recalls a hint of oak and berries, with a rustic, robust overlay of caramel.

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#25
Anderton
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/16 06:52:13 (permalink)
AT
Protools had the original "summing bottleneck" with only 48 bits.



Actually it was worse than that. TDM had a 24-bit bus, and the audio had to fit within that straight jacket. 

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#26
subtlearts
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/16 11:43:28 (permalink)
This is just hilarious, but the obvious answer anytime someone makes a claim like this is, OK, prove it. Create a simple mix with identical tracks, mix architecture and settings in each DAW, then output them to files (with the same pan law ) and prove you can tell the difference reliably in a double-blind A/B test. It takes a bit of doing but it's not that hard, and as I've said before, if you're not willing to do that but still cling to your opinion, you are implicitly acknowledging that you actively don't want to know the truth and are choosing your opinion instead. That's fine, you're welcome to do that (most of the world does it all the time about nearly everything), but at least own it rather than pretending to some advanced knowledge or subtle perception you want people to think you have but aren't actually willing to put to the test. If you're so sure about something, you should not be scared of a pretty easy way to prove it; otherwise, don't expect others to take you seriously. 

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#27
dannyjmusic
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/16 11:51:27 (permalink)
Never heard of him....seems to take have a high opinion of himself though
#28
rscain
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/16 13:48:21 (permalink)
I would have asked him a couple of more questions:
1) Is it as cold in the South as it is in winter?
2) Is it as far to Florida as it is by train?
 
I assume he would have very profound sounding answers to both......

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daryl1968
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Re: “But Sonar sounds like Sonar” 2017/11/16 14:01:10 (permalink)
arse
#30
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