These plug-in hypes are crazy. I think people spend a lot of money on placebo effects. So if any of you people feel that the Cake Reverb is not "up there", let me just convince you that it surley is. In a top-notch monitoring system it certainly does not let your audio down, so trust this one.

LOL,,, CSR is no placebo, no matter which way you look at it. If someone chooses not to buy it for what ever reason, that's fine, but I have CSR, I've worked with CSR, CSR is a friend of mine, and you sir, (Cake Reverb) are no CSR. (to twist a quote from Lloyd Benson to Dan Quale). It's good that you like the Cake Reverb, but IMHO, CSR is in a different league.

CSR has a clearity and smoothness that I've never come across in a reverb before. It's controls are very deep. Again, we are talking about essentially four different reverbs in one package.

I'm not a reverb expert, I'm not gonna toss off Dreamverb, or Spazio, or Accoustic Arts, or even the Cake Studio Verb, but I hope you don't think me saying that I really, truely, sincerely love CSR, is hype.

I don't care if anyone buys it or not, really, but I'm sure glad I did, and I don't mind saying so. Maybe we could say that the market is nearly flooded with great reverbs. It takes a very special product to break into the reverb market these days. I think IK is going to sell a lot of CSR's.

ORIGINAL: pattor

I would like to thank jsaras once more for bringing up the cakewalk reverb in this topic.

Tank you jsaras.

Yes, that is a very under appreciated reverb and it's FREE, included with SONAR. It is actually the DSP-FX StudioVerb algorithm with a Cakewalk skin:

http://www.dspfx.com/VirtualPack/html/bigStudio.html

Between that reverb, the Sonitus reverb, the Lexicon Pantheon, the Perfect Space, RoomVerb M2, RealVerb Pro, Dreamverb & EMT Plate 140, I need another expensive dongle'd reverb plugin like I need a hole in the head.

ORIGINAL: pattor
I would like to thank jsaras once more for bringing up the cakewalk reverb in this topic.
God bless twelve tones systems.

If Cakewalk gave it a new sexy GUI and name (LuxuVerb?) and a tag of about $250 I betcha a lot of people would bite on it

I'm not primarily a mix engineer, but how much of the reverb tail can anyone hear when you've got bass, drums and power chords and more going on in a mix? Assumung that you've decent reverb available, which FXReverb, Sonitus and even Lexicon can provide, it's more a matter knowing how to set them up so that they work together to compliment the overall depth of the mix. Just grabbing a preset on any of these things probably isn't going to work well in a real-life musical context. A word to the wise; my mixes typically have at least three or four different delay-based aux sends (reverbs, delay, chorus, etc.). One reverb has never done it for me, but various combos can be magical.

HERE'S an easy to understand article on the subject of tweaking the basic parameters of a reverb.

ORIGINAL: ByronSanto
Would any of the other Cakewalk effects happen to be DSP-FX?

Yes, along with the FX Reverb, the other Power Technologies DSP FX plugins are the Delay, Chorus, Parametric EQ & Flanger> They all have a simliar looking GUI.

ORIGINAL: Rednroll
Can you use these effects in Sonar in the Sony apps?

No, I am afraid not. Reportedly, according to Cakewalk's license agreement with Power Technologies, the DSP FX are to be exclusively used in SONAR and only SONAR. As a SONAR user, you can't use them in any other Cakewalk apps, like Project 5 or Kinetic either.

Well IK Multimedia now has the CSR demo listed on their site BUT you need the SYNCROSOFT USB KEY to even demo it. Damn, I really didn't want to spend $30.00 to demo a plug-in

http://www.classikstudioreverb.com/Main.html?prod-CSR

ORIGINAL: ByronSanto

Well IK Multimedia now has the CSR demo listed on their site BUT you need the SYNCROSOFT USB KEY to even demo it. Damn, I really didn't want to spend $30.00 to demo a plug-in

http://www.classikstudioreverb.com/Main.html?prod-CSR

I was afraid they'd want people to purchase a usb key, this may ultimately hurt their sales because many hate to spend money to demo. If most had away to demo the product without it costing them then they might have no problem with the dongle after purchase.But i guess IK's afraid of the demo being cracked.

ORIGINAL: Billy Buck

ORIGINAL: Rednroll
Can you use these effects in Sonar in the Sony apps?

No, I am afraid not. Reportedly, according to Cakewalk's license agreement with Power Technologies, the DSP FX are to be exclusively used in SONAR and only SONAR. As a SONAR user, you can't use them in any other Cakewalk apps, like Project 5 or Kinetic either.

Yeah, that's what I kind of found out. It kind of defeats the entire purpose of being a "plugin" then huh? Then on top of that I found the Ultra Funk VST versions of the Sonitus plugs have problems in the Sony apps. Probably the fault of Sony's implementation of VST's on this front, because they seem to work fine in Sonar. Since I know you're doing the beta thing and if you have the VST versions of the Sonitus plugs you might want to try this out, since it's not working properly in Vegas 6.


1. Insert the Ultrafunk R3 Compressor VST version. Set your automation record mode to "Write Touch". Now TRY and adjust any of the parameters on the plugins GUI. Soon you'll find yourself battling with the plugin, because as you pull a fader on the plugin down, Vegas is fighting against you to pull it up. The DX Cakewalk version automation acts differently than the VST functionality. The DX implementation works correct.

2. Use the same plugin VST version again. Have automatic thinning of points enabled for the automation. Do some automation with the VST version of the plugin. Now goto the UNDO menu. The first undo item will undo the thinning of the points. Now you've got hundreds of undo items in the undo menu for every point on the automation envelope for one task you just performed (ie record automation). So if you did a simple automation record on a track and decided after you did your adjustments to just UNDO and try it again, you'll soon find yourself caught in an UNDO clicking frenzy, to get yourself back to the point of right before you did the automation record. Now do the same thing for the DX version of the plugin. Now you don't have the 100's of undo items and it's simple to get back to the point right before you started to record the automation using the undo menu. So here again the DX implementation works correct and VST doesn't.

Here's some further details that I wrote previously in another post:

Prior to this install of Sonar 4 PE I had the Ultrafunk version of the Sonitus plugins installed. For the Ultrafunk versions they included a VST version and a DX version of the plugs. The VST version had automatible FX parameters, but the DX version didn't. Since V6 added VST support, I was hoping to use the VST versions to get automation capability to these plugs. Well it doesn't quite work right in V6 as I mentioned previously

After Cakewalk aquired these plugins they rebranded them with the Cakewalk name and then added FX automation to the DX version.

Sonar 4 PE comes bundled with the Sonitus plugs, and here's what I now see after installing Sonar 4.

1. The DX version of the Sonitus plugs now are automatible and they're branded with the Cakewalk logo. Everything is ok on this front.
2. I now have 2 versions of the VST Sonitus plugs and here's where things get funny.
a. Version one VST is branded UltraFunk....I'll call these the Ultrafunk version for clarities sake.
b. Version two VST is also branded UltraFunk.....these are the Cakewalk version, I can tell because they added something new to the UI.

Now the funny bussiness
1. In Vegas or any of the Sony apps if I use the Cakewalk VST versions this will cause an immediate hard crash in Vegas and Sound Forge once I try to playback any audio through them. They work in Sonar 4 without any problems. So a Sony problem or a Cakewalk problem? I don't know......probably both. They work fine in Sonar, and they cause Vegas to crash, but the Ultrafunk version of the same plugin works ok in Vegas, but doesn't exist as an option in Sonar. Pretty confusing huh?

2. The Ultrafunk VST version are also available in Vegas, and when I use these, then these work except for the Vegas problems that I mentioned above of having to fight with them when using the automation in write touch mode. These versions do not appear in Sonar 4, only the Cakewalk version which happen to also be branded "Ultrafunk."

So it's a little confusing on the VST side, because I have 2 versions that exist but one version will cause all the Sony apps to crash....so I have to be careful when choosing which ones I pick. I also will have a problem if I decide to save any presets for the VST versions, because I will have 2 sets of presets for the same plugins. One set of presets for the VSTs version in Sonar, and one set for the VST's in Vegas that don't cause it to crash. I'm pretty much better off just using the DX versions all the way around now since they have automation capabilities.

Now let's move to Cubase SX2 that I also have installed on the same system with these plugs.

This is similar to Sonar that the Ultrafunk VST version doesn't exist but the Cakewalk VST version does. So I select the Cakewalk version VST in Cubase SX. Cubase has problems with this plugin just like Vegas, except it tells me it has a problem and it gives me a warning that "The system may fail", but then it closes out the plugin and it doesn't. So 3 different DAWS with VST support and they all act differently with these plugins.

Attalus. No offense here but...you are slightly wrong.

But those who have m-audio delta's and GOOD soundproofing and decent monitors may argue that your major upgrade was'nt necessary, especially if their putting out high quality recordings themselves.

My opinion is that the analogue to digital and the digital to analogue is far more important than a reverb upgrade. I would never go back to the M-audio world of conversion, and can not agree that the delta can provide a high quality recording. It can provide a recording - I have myself released recordings made on such cards, but the outcome won't be high quality. It will be consumer digital sound. Many people only know this sound and like it and that is ok.

When you say that an upgrade of my kind is unnecessary, you have very tight references. If you made this step you would curse your former products. I don't want to be blunt, but someone with a Delta Card and 200-500 § monitors is in general basically mixing through a consumer "HIFI" with the loudness-functions unactivated. It is very hard to realize that this is simply the truth and a normal reaction is to defend this type of music producing, like you do.

So, I do not claim that you are totally wrong, but to judge something to be "unnecessary" because a Delta-card would be enough is a lack of knowledge of how amazingly good digital can be.

but its about sitting strong in all areas of the chain in the end for many of us, and this will ultimately reflect on musics outcome

If the analogue to digital is somewhat poor, it will not matter how much quality you put in front of it and certainly not how much you put in it when it is digital. I hate to say this, but when people spend a lot of money on plugins or nice tube preamps in, say, the 1500 §-area and still route everything through a Delta card it is like constantly upgrading a studio without getting a good 24 track tape recorder. You will still record everything onto a cassette deck. You will plug in that Universal Audio 610 mic pre to a cassette deck and think it will save the day. My major concern about all the hyping that foregoes every new product, may it be a plugin or whatever, is that a lot of people jump on that ship with a fake realization that it will be their savior in audio.

I have the event tr8 monitors to answer your question, their not the baddest boys on the block but their honest, also know this-i don't feel my end results will be less desirable then anyone elses regardless of what set-up they have (even a million dollar one), for i am a very confident full blooded music artist (not the greatest engineer but a complete artist wich embodies engineering and many other things), plus i've been out here long enough to know that theres more then one road that leads to Rome, there are many ways to achieving great results for a recording, each individual has to tailor a way that works for them and avoide stepping on what works for others, and upgrading studio as time passes is'nt dismissed by me in any form-big or small (monitors aswell as csr). i know that music can be a jealous woman if you don't give her enough of your love,time,and money-your results can be considered payback if your not satisfied.

I'm totally with you in the paragraphs about that you will be satisfied with your end results. I once was very satisfied with my end results. In hindsight, and with a little perspective, I'd say that this former satisfaction has turned into a tiny bit of embarrasement since I now realize that a lot of bad decisions came into daylight just because the A/D and the D/A and the monitoring was not the healthiest. If you suddenly changed your monitoring, I assure you that you would do a lot of de-plugging, de-tweaking, de-everything and that your satisfaction would amlify enormously with how your mixes translated on any system.

Yes, music is a really jelauos woman. And if this woman is also an ugly cow from the start you will have a living hell trying to make her a photo model. The result will be a 65 year old mama that has been subject to inferior plastic surgery, carried out by blindfolded doctors. As long as you stubbornly tell yourself that the Delta is enough for a high quality production, this is the bitter truth.

(For those reading this who are on low budgets - don't let my opinions bring you down, but honestly - save and put you money on the most crucial link in the sphere of digital sound instead of continuously buy loads of plugins that won't save your day in any way.)

I read a earlier post of yours where you mentioned reverbs did'nt sound natural to you and i believe this belief stems forth much of what you've wrote so i will address it, first of all natural is not a rule for all, second whats unnatural to one may be natural to another.

Yes, I still consider that the reverb has to perform better than what is avaliable in plugin-format nowadays in order to be really appealing and therefore still think that reverb plugins should be used sparsingly. The reverb, alone, might need to use all your CPU in order to be a really good and realistic one. And yes, I concluded that the Cakewalk Reverb is not violently less good than the "top" plugin reverbs and wanted to bring this into daylight for those who constantly search for new, expensive, kicks that in the long run won't make any big difference at all.

So, if I get the feeling that I want to reverb myself with a plugin, I won't turn my back to the Cake Reverb. How unnatural or natural it sounds does not matter as long as it is a plugin and basically just another round of mathematical calcualtions.

An example: Many people might say "perfect space is better than X or Y", without realizing the flipside. The flipside of that the algorithm is based on a microphone pickup of a "space" and that this microphone pickup may contain lots of weird phase problems that is actually worse than what happens if the same audio pass through the Cake Reverb. If people use convolution reverbs they are not only simulating a space, they are also simulating this space to how the space sounds when it is recorded through microphones. They might have a guitar recorded through one microphone. They then add a convolution reverb to this. So now they have recorded the alredy recorded guitar with maybe two other microphones (the convolution sample). This impulse is how a space sounds with two microphones and all the character that chain brings to it. This impulse might have loads of bad phasing issues that only relates to that the impulse is microphone based. These issues with the highly acclaimed convolution reverbs are often overlooked, because the impulse will - in the end of the day - never be two human ears in a space. It will alwas be a (additional) recording.

This can be connected to something from you initial post about the CSR:

It to me sounds far more musical and smoother then convolution reverbs.

So, when we talk of "natural" or "unnatural" or "musical" reverbs we have to take into consideration the traps. The CSR might sound good to your ears through your monitoring chain, and it maight contain more "cigar" than the Cake FX and this is most probably due to that he CSR adjust your sonic character in a appealing way. I want my reverb to alter my sonic character in a way that cause the least harm to the source. Since the Cakewalk Reverb does this in a very undestructive manner it is very hard for me to tell myself that my life would change if I got the CSR.

There are no rules in music but i constantly read posts where many attempt to write them

With this one I think you painted yourself into a corner after your 20-something posts about the "end all"-reverb. Don't you?

Theirs nothing wrong with individual truths, only something wrong when that individual takes their personal truth and attempt to make it absolute!

As when someone states: "be all end all"?

I think it is wise to thoroughly do your homework before you move to establish something as hype or placebo, for you have made this ruleing from little information wich is never wise to do.

I've made my homework. It's all written here above. You can refuse it, hate it and abandon it, but some day also realize there were a few good and REALISTIC points carried out on a forum, one sunny day in march 2006.

One day you might have upgraded your own monitoring/recording system and also then will conclude that a lot of the money you spent on...

I have masterverb 5,plate140,WIZOOVERB,dreamverb,gigapulse,pristine space

...was somewhat cash down the drain.

And that day you and I can sit and smile and shake our heads over a beer or two, realizing that the hunt was endless until we had the truth in our hands.

Peace bro. Have a nice day. Good luck with the CSR. I wish you all the best with your work.

So I guess what your saying is that if someone finds something they really like, and they talk about it,,, your ears are closed, because what you have is fine. Ok. Well, enjoy what you have. Personally, I like to read about different tools that are available, and exchange feedback on what people like and don't like. I'm certainly not trying to hype anything. I just think CSR is a really great verb, and to me it was worth getting. Peace

ORIGINAL: harmony gardens
So I guess what your saying is that if someone finds something they really like, and they talk about it,,, your ears are closed, because what you have is fine. Ok. Peace

Oh no - never closed minded here - and I have fun testing them all but for me I have to draw the line somewhere, settle down, throw the anchor out, and dig in with what I have. What I have will work - this new reverb by CSR may even be better but how much better? - That is all I'm saying. Do I want the best? OF course but I have to be realistic.

Also because we musicians like new sounds and enjoy checking them out we can be easily swayed a bit - nothing terrible about that - just have to have a balance.

And I too enjoy the chats and critiques. Again, every ear is different and every need is different. I realize I have probably bought stuff I didn't need but wanted but because I wanted them then that is fine - I wanted it.

Wasn't trying to be negative just trying to analyze a bit.

God bless

Hey pdarg,

I think I paid $500 street price for Altiverb. It will probably have an ilok dongle like it does for the Mac. I have to concur that these dongles are a pain in the butt. Basically there are two or three things I REALLY like on Altiverb: the Jet studio rooom IRs, one of those big European Churches, and the samples of the old vintage spring and plate reverbs. Also, the Bill Putnam echo chamber IRs are nice for 60s types of sounds.

ATTLUS - my only criticism so far on CSR is a tendency towards a grainy representation of sibilance on voices with the plate setting. This is easily dealt with by the various high end roll off parameters, so it's not a major problem or anything - more like a characteristic.
Mark

Pattor,

you comming with what many southerners refer to as the texas long-horn style, you make two good points with alot of bull embetween. Your not going to convince me i can throw any reverb on my music or that i can't get good quality results with my soundcard and monitors. feed that rubbish to anyone else,Just cause you prefer cakewalk reverb does'nt mean i should and i'm happy with my choices of reverbs, i don't need you offending me first then trying to tell me i should prefer some cakewalk effect over csr. Go after what you like and i'll go after what i like.

You write:

Quote: Yes, I still consider that the reverb has to perform better than what is avaliable in plugin-format nowadays in order to be really appealing and therefore still think that reverb plugins should be used sparsingly. The reverb, alone, might need to use all your CPU in order to be a really good and realistic one. And yes, I concluded that the Cakewalk Reverb is not violently less good than the "top" plugin reverbs and wanted to bring this into daylight for those who constantly search for new, expensive, kicks that in the long run won't make any big difference at all. "END QUOTE


This is your opinion and what works for you, i am quite content with many digital reverbs i've chosen, also your opinions might have been more welcomed if you did not come in offending me first.
You have'nt even truly heard CSR but you reach a conclusion that cakewalk reverb is better or as good, anyone with a half of a brain know something is wrong with this picture, your science is far from perfect and very much flawed.I own both and form my opinion not from assumption.And so far all who own the CSR plugin says its good, and i'm sure many with high end converters will say the same thing, but you who have not even demo'd the plugin want to scream its not worth buying, anyone with a half a brain will no somethings wrong with that.Also know this-many of us put on our tracks what ever the track calls for, that may be CSR that may be cakewalk reverb, that may be ambience freeware reverb- those of us who do this don't need you restricting us to cakewalk reverb and telling us its all we need for everything, i listen to my tracks not you!

one minute you say digital in the box reverbs are'nt good the next minute you say use cakewalk reverb-YOU DON'T MAKE SCENSE,and i'm not wrong if i don't go after your choice. you can't dictate what others should like or use,when i refer to csr as best i usually say to me because i know others prefer other reverbs, every song is'nt suppose to use all the same effects as another, neither should every musician have the same effect arsenal. But quite frankly you only started promoting cakewalk reverb to throw dirt on my thread.furthermore i don't need pcm monitors to hear the difference between cakewalk reverb and CSR, my monitors can be better or worser i'd still no what my ears like thank you very much!

You wrote:

QUOTE: So, when we talk of "natural" or "unnatural" or "musical" reverbs we have to take into consideration the traps. The CSR might sound good to your ears through your monitoring chain, and it maight contain more "cigar" than the Cake FX and this is most probably due to that he CSR adjust your sonic character in a appealing way. I want my reverb to alter my sonic character in a way that cause the least harm to the source. Since the Cakewalk Reverb does this in a very undestructive manner it is very hard for me to tell myself that my life would change if I got the CSR." END QUOTE


Your assuming that CSR is distructive to the source, when actually its less destructive to my ears then cakewalk fx. In certain settings i barely can tell csr is on the audio. You've done nothing but made assumptions wich is the problem, THOROUGHLY DEMO THE PRODUCT BEFORE YOU ATTACK. My ears are very trained and you are not going to tell me what they should like!

You wrote:

QUOTE:"With this one I think you painted yourself into a corner after your 20-something posts about the "end all"-reverb. Don't you?" END QUOTE

What you have done was only heard pieces of a conversation and made an error by taking out of context what you heard. As far as the be all end all, you've just hopped into a conversation without hearing the whole conversation- in MANY places threw out this thread i stated in many different ways THERE IS NO BE ALL END ALL plugin, you can start by reading the first post of the 4 column of this thread it sums up nicely where i stand, Those words where not to be taken seriously. but only those who truly have'nt followed the thread or are just looking for amunition for war like you will take it literally.I've wrote in enough posts threw out this thread my opinions that many reverbs are beautiful in their own way so CSR won't replace nothing, i can re-post some of those past statements if you wish, but i doubt if you care to hear the truth because you are in attack mode.
,
You wrote:

QUOTE: My opinion is that the analogue to digital and the digital to analogue is far more important than a reverb upgrade. I would never go back to the M-audio world of conversion, and can not agree that the delta can provide a high quality recording. It can provide a recording - I have myself released recordings made on such cards, but the outcome won't be high quality. It will be consumer digital sound. Many people only know this sound and like it and that is ok. END QUOTE

I build my studio a particular way for various reasons, i took the reverb upgrade at this time for a reason. i don't need you dictating what i must buy first or what is more important to me at this moment, you don't know anyones whole situation to dictate anything, for i know my music and i know what it needs, and i know the order i wish to buy my gear, I have a totally different hand to play and play my cards according to my needs and what i have.You play your cards your way, their is more then one road that leads to Rome.Just because i bought CSR does'nt mean i don't plan to upgrade soundcard and monitors, and if i could not afford to upgrade sound card and monitors i am not wrong for buying CSR.Your not the only one with eyes on how to build a studio, I'll play my cards according to my way and what works for me.And you don't know what effects my music need and don't need so stop assumeing.Some people should do as you say and get a two thousand dollar soundcard first or save for one, this is true for them but for many reasons it is not true for all.Others may can't afford this, or they may be satisfied with what they have, or they may feel now is not the time for that, you don't know all circumstances you only know yours.There are far too many different circumstances for you to try and tailor one way for everyone.
There has been many great recordings made in the past with equipement not as good as the m-audio delta with the computer.Some well known recordings of the past where done with a yamaha 4 track, and some with a Shure sm58 microphone, these recordings are still around today, their by the beattles and michael jackson,When Jermain Dupree was producing his first album he worked out of his home with no good room treatment, he had no sound booth so he made kriss kross go into a closet and put a sheet over the door.I assure you kriss kross album did just fine and Jermaine dupree is now bigtime. so i assure you the world will not end for many of us musicians if we don't run out and get the Lavry AD or pcm monitors you have.There are alot of people i'm sure with less quality gear then you putting out better recordings then you, it is'nt as easy to achieve as it would be if they had better gear but it is achieved, just like someone who has a neve mixing console should'nt be able to tell you that high quality music can't be made without owning this $100,000 console, i'm sure they can receive higher quality results in some aspects of the song if they use equipement well,but if you use what you have correctly you'll do just fine and if their not great at using the neve mixing console you can out do them, for great quality at a whole goes beyond expensive converters and can be achieved with talent and using low budget gear correctly,Ofcourse certain aspects of the song may not be as great as the guy with the neve mixing console if he uses it correctly but if their good enough and other aspects are great then the low budget engineer has done well. the low budget engineer may not have the highest sound quality but still can have a high one.And if the low budget engineers tracks have a great sounding artist singing on it with a well composed beat then he has advantage for his song at a whole. theirs always someone else with bigger and badder gear that does'nt always equal bigger and badder recordings, anyone with any true experience knows this.And just cause you did not do well with your behringer monitors and m-audio card does'nt mean no one else can..
i believe in upgrading when possible so i'm not going to pretend that getting better monitors and room treatment and soundcards won't make a world of a difference in some ways, but i'm not going to say that a cheap but good soundcard and monitors won't allow professional and great quality music because if i said this it would be a lie, even with the most expensive rig you still have to know how to use it and you still need TALENTED ARTIST, and the person with the cheaper rig can put out the platnum selling album while the one with the million dollar rig put out flops.IT'S ABOUT KNOWING HOW TO USE WHAT YOU HAVE AND HAVING A TALENTED PERFORMER.so in the end your not going to convince anybody of anything who knows better, so move on. If others want to read your rubbish feel free to post, but please do so without dragging me into it like you've done.

you did not come with constructive opinion you came with destructive attacks wich is the sign of a person who needs to learn more in life.

FINALLY:

Are you now satisfied since you got the arguement you wanted? for i purposely ignored your first two posts because they did'nt smell right to me, but you made sure you dragged me into things on your third post when you insinuated my thread is hyped,placebo and then asked me what type of monitors i have in the same context. Am i not suppose to get offended after you do this?and now i guess the game your going to play is digging up my old posts and twist and take them out of context like a true arguementative person does (BE ALL END ALL).I really don't have time for this, i'm VERY satisfied with my way of doing things just as you are with yours!

Dear Attalus,

Try some anger management.

My post was in my opinion open and did not call out for trouble. You did encode that I was all offensive with it. Please read it again. Do you really think I want to kick you in your stomach? Your butt? I respect you and everyone else. I love you and everyone else.

Still, I think it's a bit melancholic to see people spend hundreds, thousands of dollars on software that WON'T MAKE THE BASIC AUDIO BETTER! The reverb á 250 bucks or whatever is a binary calculator. It is virtual. It is just a bunch of formulas. Crap in, crap out.

There is certainly good music made on consumer audio systems. I like lo-fi a lot. but I also like to have total control over my lo-fi and that is why I prefer to hear what the f*** is going on inside of my mixes.

Everyone who have got out from the M-audio line for something slightly better would most likely agree that they would never go back. That is what I said. I never forced something on you.

God, this is endless...

I did not fail my recordings with the low end line. As you assume. I once more say - the satisfaction came into another daylight when I heard what REALLY was going on with my formerly so satisfying production. Do you get this? The low end products do not deliver what you would need to make your production sound TOP NOTCH. They don't deliver what you need in order to do appropriate adjustments in the 0.2-0.4 dB range. They do not deliver a satisfying (totally linear) presentation. This is all I'm saying and I can guarantee that anyone who have made a step up in the "judgement chain" will agree upon this.

All I was trying to say was that if people are really serious about their music and aim for doing the production by themselves and aim to really make something out of it - then they should start to investigate what an upgrade from the M-audio-type of gear could do for them. And not continue to spend THOUSANDS of dollars on PLUGINS.

And yes - I know it's all about the TALENT! This is nothing new for anyone.

Let us close this subject. Enough said. We are representatives from two worlds. OK? Fine then.


There are only a few backdraws with getting a true and great monitoring system, and I hope this can be inspiring for those who might consider to spend money on something else than the endless hunt for new plugins:

1. You will hear the degradation of sound by just applying a plugin in "neutral mode". You will hear when 16 or 24 bits of basic recorded audio turns 32 (or 64). You will hear and notice this quantization. Therefore you will use as few plugs as possible. Not very good news if you've your plugin folder full of reverbs, I suppose.

2. You won't need your plugin compressors any more. I just finished mixing a 22 track project with no compressors anywhere. And you know what - it is beatbased electronica with five electric guitars playing different structures at the same time, one live drumkit, one synthesized beatmachine, and a lot of lo-fi approch to noise and additional synths. No compressor on any of the 22 tracks! I know it's more easy to reach for those when having a 2496 from M-audio. This has not to do with talent, it has only to do with translation of the mix and that you hear something that fool you into taking bad decisions on a low end product.

3. The thought of that some wise mastering engineer should fool around with your audio will scare the hell out of you, because your mix has got more punch and richness than what the squashed CD's selling billons have. Your mix will sound better than any of the mixes you tried to "master" back...then. Your mix will sound extremely good on whatever playbakc system you throw it at.

4. You will never, ever, try to fool around with your Ozone, your PSP Vintage warmer, or your multiband compressor. The word mastering will become very, very offensive. You won't need that. You'll print your mix, 22 uncompressed tracks of worth, adjust it to 16/44, send it to your record label and they will ask you who the F has mastered your mix.

5. You will also have a really great time listening to other artists recordings. Even if you have heard them hundred of times, it will be like the first time. Again.

6. There will be so much "warmth" present when your analogue has become digital, that you won't bother to buy that new "Waves SSL" or whatever it is that is supposed to sound analogue. And your Antares Tube will come to eternal rest.

7. You'll notice that the Studioverb from Cakewalk is the least destructive reverb of the bundled Sonar plugins. It has got the clearest, most humble and useful sound.

Have a nice weekend, Attalus. I wish you, and everyone else, the best. My intention was never to offend you. I just curiously asked what you base your audible decisions on. I think that is not forbidden when someone say "this is AWESOME". I want to know in what kind of system it does sound awesome before I even consider to investigate a new product further. Nothing strange about that, is it?

If you found me offensive, it can depend on that I find your statements a bit offensive. If you didn't have that "buy-links" in the beginning of your posts and instead said "hi everyone, have you tried this one and what do you think?" I could take your opinions a bit more seriously.

Any component in a studio *can* fail...
But I can easily replace a HD, CPU, etc. A couple of hours and I'm back to work...
Ironically, I could have bought a new Syncrosoft dongle locally for ~$40.
But **$E*E*# wouldn't replace the licence that ended up in Never Never Land.
That's where the real issue/problem lies. They assume you're a thief...
Even when you can show that you have a (non-functional) dongle and the install DVD.
In fact, the youngster tech guy told me there was absolutely nothing wrong with the dongle... because it showed up in Device Manager!!! Well... You can't transfer *any* licence to/from the darn thing. So... uhhh... it doesn't take a genious to figure out it's defective.
Not that I'm bitter or anything...

Hi Jim, well, indeed that's not a good thing then, I didn't knew this about the synchrosoft keys, now I better look out for a crack for my Philharmonic

That's why I repeat that IMHO they should have gone with the ilok keys which allow licence transfers ... so for 40$ you can have a key in case something goes wrong.

Of coarse like someone already mentioned, in a perfect world we won't need dongles, but I still believe that ilok has it right and still gives some freedom for users.

best,

Hans