Doktor Avalanche 
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Re: another bug -- Selection change, perhaps has to do with "end of song"
2015/10/23 21:12:28
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Anyway second or maybe third mistake in a week. Sorry. I apologise for looking like an arrogant twat in these forums.
post edited by robert_e_bone - 2015/11/19 22:37:51
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kevinwal
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Re: another bug -- Selection change, perhaps has to do with "end of song"
2015/10/23 21:38:52
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Doktor Avalanche
Kevin will the post later but I tend to write terrible posts where people think I'm directing stuff at them. When I'm just saying and thinking 'in general' from the overview of the thread. Getting drunk down pub right now :) I get what you are saying of course none of it personally directed..
Gotcha, no worries. Enjoy the night out!
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: another bug -- Selection change, perhaps has to do with "end of song"
2015/10/23 21:45:45
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Thanks Kevin I realised this was a muddle because some of the other quotes are out of sequential order. Let's just state this a) I am no better than anybody else here b) I talk logic, it may appear irritating I'm sorry I just want to get to the root of the issue. c) I love everybody. Even those blokes who can't stand me. Thanks....
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/10/23 21:56:15
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Anderton
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Re: another bug -- Selection change, perhaps has to do with "end of song"
2015/10/23 22:19:14
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Doktor Avalanche
What really should have happened in this thread was.
a) Clarify the steps
b) Get it reproduced
c) Discuss the expected vs actual behaviour.
I'd add a few more steps... d) If possible, offer assistance to the OP in the form of a simple, one-click workaround that makes the OP's life easier and less frustrating. e) OP says "thanks," then files either bug report or feature request. f) People return to making music.
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: another bug -- Selection change, perhaps has to do with "end of song"
2015/10/23 22:28:25
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Doktor Avalanche
What really should have happened in this thread was.
a) Clarify the steps
b) Get it reproduced
c) Discuss the expected vs actual behaviour.
Anderton
I'd add a few more steps...
d) If possible, offer assistance to the OP in the form of a simple, one-click workaround that makes the OP's life easier and less frustrating.
e) OP says "thanks," then files either bug report or feature request.
f) People return to making music.
My workflow 1) Is this a bug 2) Find out 3) Confirm Yes/No 4) Report whatever. 5) discuss workarounds if necessary. If every bug report was a discussion about workarounds as a priority before confirming it as a bug, no bug would ever be fixed, we would just live with workarounds, as we do :) Cheers :)
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backwoods
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Re: another bug -- Selection change, perhaps has to do with "end of song"
2015/10/23 22:32:10
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I thought you wait for the original finder to post the bug Alex?
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: another bug -- Selection change, perhaps has to do with "end of song"
2015/10/23 22:34:33
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backwoods
I thought you wait for the original finder to post the bug Alex?
Rule broken today! Apologise for the inconsistency.
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/10/23 22:45:04
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Anderton
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Re: another bug -- Selection change, perhaps has to do with "end of song"
2015/10/23 22:39:56
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Adq
It is already the fact that developers prefer to implement new features in marketing goals What you have stated is an opinion. The evidence indicates that the developers prefer to strike a balance between fixing bugs and adding features. Read the list of bug fixes that happened between SONAR X3 and SONAR 2015, then read the list of bug fixes that have been happening every month since January. Read the list of performance optimizations in the Jamaica Plain update, including a way to include VST3-type CPU parking features for instruments that don't support it. Then, read all the feature requests. "We want a chord track," "we want to be able to click/drag/select and have an audio waveform appear in a track that sounds like a metronome because doing this is so simple and beautiful," "we want a mastering suite," "we want the same expression features Cubase has even though other DAWs don't have it," "we want scratchpad stuff like Studio One," "we want spreadsheet-style sequencing like FL Studio," "we want a gapless audio engine like Live," "we want notation like Digital Performer," etc. etc. etc. You disapprove of disregarding others needs and wishes but doing only bug fixes will, by definition, ignore others' needs and wishes. Conversely, only adding features will, by definition, ignore others' needs and wishes. It is a fact that bugs are being fixed, performance is being optimized, and new features are being added. Of course, you can hold the opinion that the ratio of these does not conform to want you want. However, I can guarantee you that the ratio does not conform to the wishes of the developers at Cakewalk, either. They would like to have enough programmers to fix all the bugs and add a whole bunch of new features, preferably by the end of next week. Ain't gonna happen. Also this small and minor bugs need much less time to fix. I don't think you can know that. Selection and track introduction are fundamental aspects of a program. I've given this example before, but Ableton Live cannot record solo button presses when you do recording. One would think this would be easy to fix. They have had many requests to add this feature. But they say it is simply not possible without rewriting major sections of the code from scratch, because solo was intended as a diagnostic tool in the studio for playback, not a live performance feature for recording.
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: another bug -- Selection change, perhaps has to do with "end of song"
2015/10/23 22:52:34
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Anderton
Adq
It is already the fact that developers prefer to implement new features in marketing goals
What you have stated is an opinion. The evidence indicates that the developers prefer to strike a balance between fixing bugs and adding features. Read the list of bug fixes that happened between SONAR X3 and SONAR 2015, then read the list of bug fixes that have been happening every month since January. Read the list of performance optimizations in the Jamaica Plain update, including a way to include VST3-type CPU parking features for instruments that don't support it.
Then, read all the feature requests. "We want a chord track," "we want to be able to click/drag/select and have an audio waveform appear in a track that sounds like a metronome because doing this is so simple and beautiful," "we want a mastering suite," "we want the same expression features Cubase has even though other DAWs don't have it," "we want scratchpad stuff like Studio One," "we want spreadsheet-style sequencing like FL Studio," "we want a gapless audio engine like Live," "we want notation like Digital Performer," etc. etc. etc.
You disapprove of disregarding others needs and wishes but doing only bug fixes will, by definition, ignore others' needs and wishes. Conversely, only adding features will, by definition, ignore others' needs and wishes.
It is a fact that bugs are being fixed, performance is being optimized, and new features are being added. Of course, you can hold the opinion that the ratio of these does not conform to want you want. However, I can guarantee you that the ratio does not conform to the wishes of the developers at Cakewalk, either. They would like to have enough programmers to fix all the bugs and add a whole bunch of new features, preferably by the end of next week. Ain't gonna happen.
Also this small and minor bugs need much less time to fix.
I don't think you can know that. Selection and track introduction are fundamental aspects of a program. I've given this example before, but Ableton Live cannot record solo button presses when you do recording. One would think this would be easy to fix. They have had many requests to add this feature. But they say it is simply not possible without rewriting major sections of the code from scratch, because solo was intended as a diagnostic tool in the studio for playback, not a live performance feature for recording.
What everybody forgets is time... "how long will it take to fix X". We have a month to sort something. Otherwise schedule it for later release. The other thing is task schedule... "If we revamp Y in six months time, there is no point in fixing X because it will be superseded with new functionality" Then there are other factors.. a) Noise in forums b) Noise in support c) Noise from QA via problem reports. d) Noise from marketing dept who is worried about their product being compared with other products. e) Exclusivity. Standing their application away from the rest giving a unique selling point (related to (d)). f) Noise from the people who are bankrolling it.
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/10/23 23:15:46
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Anderton
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Re: another bug -- Selection change, perhaps has to do with "end of song"
2015/10/23 23:10:02
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Doktor Avalanche
If every bug report was a discussion about workarounds as a priority before confirming it as a bug, no bug would ever be fixed, we would just live with workarounds, as we do :)
I disagree. My understanding is that this forum's priority is about helping people use SONAR. If someone's work is being interrupted, they're experiencing frustration, or the last ed Ex dropoff is in two hours, I believe presenting a solution that can help the person takes priority. If it's a bug, I'm sure the bug will be patient enough to wait around for one post while a solution is being offered, after which people can continue discussing whether it's a bug, not a bug, requires a feature request, requires a bug report, needs to be moved to the problem report forum, etc. Now excuse me while I finish my Friday's Tip of the Week, which is also about trying to help people use SONAR more effectively. At least I'm consistent.
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: another bug -- Selection change, perhaps has to do with "end of song"
2015/10/23 23:12:23
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Craig. Report the bug first. Then work out how you can get around it. Where else do the bakers get information from in order to fix bugs? Sure there is internal testing (probably beta as well) but I suspect that they have a limited scope on a monthly schedule and zillions of problem reports, many of them are probably system specific and probably are more down to support. It is totally obvious that they are relying on feedback from the community (forums) as part of their process. Probably support as well. No different from any other clued up software company. MS have woken up to that fact as well.... Or live with workarounds... If the forums sole purpose is about that then I stand corrected. (updated for typo)
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/10/24 12:25:02
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Adq
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Re: another bug -- Selection change, perhaps has to do with "end of song"
2015/10/24 01:21:59
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Anderton
Adq
It is already the fact that developers prefer to implement new features in marketing goals
What you have stated is an opinion. The evidence indicates that the developers prefer to strike a balance between fixing bugs and adding features. Read the list of bug fixes that happened between SONAR X3 and SONAR 2015, then read the list of bug fixes that have been happening every month since January. Read the list of performance optimizations in the Jamaica Plain update, including a way to include VST3-type CPU parking features for instruments that don't support it.
Ok, my statement is too harsh and maybe not right, but there is nothing wrong in preferring new features from company's point of view. You make me read this list, and while the most of fixed bugs I'm not only aware of, I even can't understand what they mean, I have found that very annoying bug with right click delete in drum pane is fixed (we have discussed it earlier), and it makes me a bit happier. Anderton
Then, read all the feature requests. "We want a chord track," "we want to be able to click/drag/select and have an audio waveform appear in a track that sounds like a metronome because doing this is so simple and beautiful," "we want a mastering suite," "we want the same expression features Cubase has even though other DAWs don't have it," "we want scratchpad stuff like Studio One," "we want spreadsheet-style sequencing like FL Studio," "we want a gapless audio engine like Live," "we want notation like Digital Performer," etc. etc. etc.
Here I can't agree. If you go to Feature Request forum, set filter to 365 days, and choose sorting Rating DESC, now it sorts by votes number. And in the top of the list are not new features mostly, but improvements of existing features, and this top list really makes sense. Anderton
Also this small and minor bugs need much less time to fix.
I don't think you can know that.
Ok, so nobody here, or even developers without some work for reviewing, can know how much time it would take. So when one says let's don't push this bug, it will take too much developers time from other tasks, it has no more sense than saying that it is easy and will take a couple of minutes to fix.
post edited by Adq - 2015/10/24 01:33:02
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williamcopper
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Re: another bug -- Selection change, perhaps has to do with "end of song"
2015/10/29 18:53:02
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Ok, again was hit with a selection change, and I was sure I had added no new tracks. Tracked it down to one more bug, very similar or possibly the same bug with a new exoskeleton.
If you simply reorder a track, the selection changes as outlined in the OP. Surely this, or the insert track, will be found to be the cause of so many posts in this forum. "My audio has shifted".
As before, select a time range, starting at 0 and ending past last event, for a group of tracks.
Without changing that selection, move a track up or down to a new position in track view. (click and drag the track, just as you'd reorder tracks while deciding how you like to see them). Presto: the selection you just made changes.
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williamcopper
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Re: another bug -- Selection change, perhaps has to do with "end of song"
2015/10/29 19:00:08
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Doktor A, thanks for reporting this to CW, as it sounds like you did. I no longer report anything to them, it offends me too much to be ignored. I post here, if people want to be mad at me or weasel around and show how I'm wrong, I don't worrry about it. Is this a fairly big problem, especially for new users (or even fairly experienced users)? yes, absolutely. Mysterious audio alignment problems have been reported over and over and over and over, and this is surely one of the causes.
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: another bug -- Selection change, perhaps has to do with "end of song"
2015/10/29 20:24:08
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William I think the problem is you think all issues are bugs when a lot of them are enhancement requests. They may be important but that does not change what they are. After a while people will start to assume everything you post is pointing non existant bug, rather you are asking for improvements on workflow. Whilst I sympathise you must get yourself familiar with the difference between an enhancement and a bug. It's not your definition, it a well known process that software developers use pretty much universally. You need to be extremely careful how you define your issue. Having said that I agree with you here on this thread, I think this is a serious workflow bug that needs to be resolved once and for all. There is no reason scope selections should be reset in these scenarios, whilst in other scenarios it does not. I'm glad you've pointed to the root of the issue here, up until now I just assumed I was doing something stupid. I think if you are posting here about bugs and not reporting them in problem reporter after confirmation (getting a CWBRN), I think you are wasting everybodies time inc yours. Without reporting them (hopefully with very clear steps) nothing is likely to happen. Cheers :)
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/10/29 20:37:55
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williamcopper
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Re: another bug -- Selection change, perhaps has to do with "end of song"
2015/10/31 08:30:41
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"Wasting everybody's time"? I hope not. I've certainly learned workarounds in this forum in between having to read endless sniping at each other. Sometimes, as here, it's a real and long-standing problem -- having showed two reasons for it, those who read the posts will have learned something (and not have wasted their time) and those who haven't read the posts will not have learned it and will probably keep hitting the bug but at least will not have wasted their time reading!
Again, I've become cynical about problem reporting, having now watched twenty years of sonar development. There was a time, back in the revisions of Sonar 3, when I could see my comments being turned into improvements (and I was pretty much the same then as I am now, irritating to some, comprehensible to others, and fairly good at identifying issues methodically even if not so good at writing them up ...). But the current Problem Report form exists imo to stop people from bothering, or maybe it is simply a result of the same weak programming as the current sonar, AND as far as I've seen everything reported is ignored ... the 'bug fixes' that come out each month are obscure issues probably initiated by developers of other products ... so I don't use it.
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ampfixer
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Re: another bug -- Selection change, perhaps has to do with "end of song"
2015/10/31 13:14:50
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All we have is the system that has been provided. If you are saying the system for problem reports doesn't usually work, then not using the system must guarantee that it won'r get fixed. Your stance on this doesn't make sense to me, but it's a free world.
Regards, John I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps. WIN 10 Pro X64, I7-3770k 16 gigs, ASUS Z77 pro, AMD 7950 3 gig, Steinberg UR44, A-Pro 500, Sonar Platinum, KRK Rokit 6
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williamcopper
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Re: another bug -- Selection change, perhaps has to do with "end of song"
2015/10/31 14:15:49
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Actually, I disagree, Ampfixer: not using the system MAY just possibly result in the system being improved! While using the system pretty much guarantees that it will NOT be improved.
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: another bug -- Selection change, perhaps has to do with "end of song"
2015/10/31 21:46:52
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williamcopper
Actually, I disagree, Ampfixer: not using the system MAY just possibly result in the system being improved! While using the system pretty much guarantees that it will NOT be improved.
?
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williamcopper
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Re: another bug -- Selection change, perhaps has to do with "end of song"
2015/11/06 01:11:15
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Third variant of same problem discovered because something still was resetting selection range against my wishes:
if you use "Bounce to Tracks" and accept as target the default destination "New Track" the selection range gets changed depending on whatever track Sonar thinks was last selected (even if your actual selection is many tracks).
So click-shiftclick in up direction to select a group of tracks in a range of time might result in a different selection range mistake than click-shiftclick in a down direction to select the same group of tracks.
But no, I'm sure it's not an actual bug, they probably designed it that way intentionally.
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papacucku
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Re: another bug -- Selection change, perhaps has to do with "end of song"
2015/11/06 09:14:08
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LOL. i would like selections to be "stickier" for sure. But let me say I have encountered some "issues" that make a non sticky selection look like y'all are pole vaulting over mouse turds. So we are all perfectly legit in voicing our opinions about how we look at a particular event or behavior, whether it is a bug or not..etc. working in IT support for 25 years at all levels the defacto standard of prioritizing has been , can you work? If you can continue to work then the issue quickly becomes second class. So I agree with those of you who say there is a work around so report it and move on. Now error messages, missing or messed up audio, inability to ....do something without restarting the plugin, I would give a red ribbon to. They are more relevant to ...me. This is a white ribbon issue and I would hope the bakers are working on all the bugs where crap just don't work (which this rapid release of patches every month.. is going to continue to produce). I say they stop rolling out new options and spend the first quarter of 2015 making sonar rock solid so a new user won't get the "operation error" message and be completely turned off next year.
post edited by papacucku - 2015/11/06 09:29:22
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Adq
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Re: another bug -- Selection change, perhaps has to do with "end of song"
2015/11/06 09:31:57
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papacucku, there is mistake in your statement. This bug leads to "messed up audio", so you have classified it wrong.
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williamcopper
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Re: another bug -- Selection change, perhaps has to do with "end of song"
2015/11/12 06:53:25
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Not to belabor this issue, but even knowing about this bug in its three versions, and knowing how to work around it, and even being watchful for it, I lost a good hour or so this week because of it YET AGAIN. I accidentally transposed an entire large chunk of midi data for a transposing instrument .. in a finished part of a project. Luckily I listened to the finished part again and noticed ... then it was a matter of very time consuming tracking down WHICH track had the problem, WHAT the problem was, and WHY the audio was bounced with the wrong sounds.
Does this bug make serious problems? Yes indeed.
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: another bug -- Selection change, perhaps has to do with "end of song"
2015/11/12 07:07:38
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papacucku
I say they stop rolling out new options and spend the first quarter of 2015 making sonar rock solid so a new user won't get the "operation error" message and be completely turned off next year.
Well we are well into the final quarter of 2015. However I agree and have been saying this sort of thing for years... Adq
papacucku, there is mistake in your statement. This bug leads to "messed up audio", so you have classified it wrong.
If this was a 'statement' might be best to fully quote him rather than paraphrase half of it, I don't think he was referring the issue specifically.
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williamcopper
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Re: another bug -- Selection change, perhaps has to do with "end of song"
2015/11/12 10:02:17
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Now that a good 10 percent of my full attention is focused on selection weirdnesses, just found a new one, same type of thing: select a range of tracks, select a time range, tranpose the midi notes. Yet again, the selection range CHANGES after the transposition. Undo ... the selection range does NOT return to the original.
This is bug #5 having to do with selection. Yes, it "messes up audio", not to mention messes up midi and everything else, if you do something for an intended selection range and something different is in fact selected and acted on by Sonar.
Even as well as I know this problem by now, it is so incredibly natural to "select, then transpose, then run a cal program, then shift start times" in a fast sequence without noticing that the selection range has changed without your knowledge or intention.
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: another bug -- Selection change, perhaps has to do with "end of song"
2015/11/12 10:08:23
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☄ Helpfulby williamcopper 2015/11/12 10:28:12
williamcopper
This is bug #5 having to do with selection. Yes, it "messes up audio", not to mention messes up midi and everything else, if you do something for an intended selection range and something different is in fact selected and acted on by Sonar.
I think you come up with good points, and I want to see these sort of things fixed too. But when you come up with statements that make the issue unclear that's where you go wrong. The actually issue is JUST the selection range changes. Anything else is a consequence of that behaviour afterwards. Which is pretty bad I agree. But please stop confusing the actual bug here by implying there's something going on with audio. If you talk about the specifics it's much easier to discuss and get your point across, if you bundle in other stuff you just water down your point. Please be clear and specific, try to avoid noise.
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/11/12 10:21:24
Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.6,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),2 x 1TB SSD (Samsung EVO 850),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5. Rap Pro,Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1,Addictive Keys,Waves Silver,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist,Acronis True Image 2015.
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williamcopper
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Re: another bug -- Selection change, perhaps has to do with "end of song"
2015/11/12 10:21:48
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Good points, Dr. How it affects audio: all the audio I use for most projects is created from "bouncing to tracks" selected ranges ... so in that sense it does affect audio. But I'll try, poor writer as I am, to be more clear.
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: another bug -- Selection change, perhaps has to do with "end of song"
2015/11/19 14:40:55
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CWBRN-40261 "reproducible" and submitted to development. This thread should live in the problem reports forums now, for what it is worth - confirmed bug.
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/11/19 14:53:12
Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.6,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),2 x 1TB SSD (Samsung EVO 850),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5. Rap Pro,Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1,Addictive Keys,Waves Silver,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist,Acronis True Image 2015.
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