vintagevibe
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Cakewalk: Are you listening to our notation requests?
It would be nice if someone from CW would at least acknowledge that they are listening. 
post edited by vintagevibe - 2009/05/26 12:53:29
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InstrEd
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RE: Cakewalk: Are you listening to our notation requests?
2009/05/26 13:38:16
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I have to agree with you on that. All I got from Alex last year is when Sonar 8 was due. I said I hope staff view improvements are coming or I'll be disappointed. He answered, well I guess you will be disappointed  . Said it couldn't make it for Sonar 8 timetable. So I'm really hoping that Sonar 9 is the charm this time. If it is I'll find a way to upgrade right away. If not, I'll upgrade, but in the spring when there is a sale. Ed
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vintagevibe
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RE: Cakewalk: Are you listening to our notation requests?
2009/05/26 15:03:03
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ORIGINAL: InstrEd
I have to agree with you on that. All I got from Alex last year is when Sonar 8 was due. I said I hope staff view improvements are coming or I'll be disappointed. He answered, well I guess you will be disappointed. Said it couldn't make it for Sonar 8 timetable. So I'm really hoping that Sonar 9 is the charm this time. If it is I'll find a way to upgrade right away. If not, I'll upgrade, but in the spring when there is a sale.
Ed
I'm going to have to find another solution if notation is not upgraded. I really dread learning another DAW but I really have to have usable notation.
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twinkielk15
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RE: Cakewalk: Are you listening to our notation requests?
2009/05/26 15:53:40
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quote:
ORIGINAL: InstrEd
I have to agree with you on that. All I got from Alex last year is when Sonar 8 was due. I said I hope staff view improvements are coming or I'll be disappointed. He answered, well I guess you will be disappointed. Said it couldn't make it for Sonar 8 timetable. So I'm really hoping that Sonar 9 is the charm this time. If it is I'll find a way to upgrade right away. If not, I'll upgrade, but in the spring when there is a sale.
Ed
I'm going to have to find another solution if notation is not upgraded. I really dread learning another DAW but I really have to have usable notation. +1 I am already shopping. Too bad too. I really do love Sonar but this is a glaring shortcoming for many of us.
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InstrEd
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RE: Cakewalk: Are you listening to our notation requests?
2009/05/26 16:37:05
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I have Finale already, and so I don't think I be leaving Sonar. never know though. The one that I would jump ship is Cubase, but I hate dongles.
Presonus new DAW, doesn't do Staff view. Reaper which I have tried and love the robustness of the audio engine, doesn't have the in-depth MIDI yet. (yes I know version 3 is out.) So I keep praying that Cakewalk will finally address the shortcoming of Staff view.
Would be nice if one of the Bakers would drop in and say, one of the areas of improvement in Sonar 9 will be staff improvements.
Just once Cakewalk give us customers a line about this one feature. We have suffered 8 version and counting. Don't think it is to much to
ask that you respond and say WE ARE WORKING ON STAFF IMPROVEMENTS!
Ed
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flatpicknut
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RE: Cakewalk: Are you listening to our notation requests?
2009/05/26 16:44:51
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Ed said, "Don't think it is to much to ask that you respond and say WE ARE WORKING ON STAFF IMPROVEMENTS!" Unless they aren't (working on staff improvements).
post edited by flatpicknut - 2009/05/26 16:54:28
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twinkielk15
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RE: Cakewalk: Are you listening to our notation requests?
2009/05/26 19:26:49
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Agreed InstrEd. If I only knew that the problem was at least being addressed I'd be willing to stick around through another several versions. I trust Cake to put out a quality product and if they are just not satisfied with the quality at this point that's fine by me. I'd rather wait a few more years and have an awesome piece of software than mess with a subpar version for a few years while they work the kinks out. But again, just let us know....
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Qwerty69
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RE: Cakewalk: Are you listening to our notation requests?
2009/05/26 20:20:56
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ORIGINAL: twinkielk15
...but this is a glaring shortcoming for many of us.
Putting on my devil's advocate hat, I ask "How many"? 10% of the userbase? 20%? Even 30%? We all keep on telling Cakewalk to concentrate on stability and super-charging the engine, not trying to be too many things to too many people but then we turn around and demand attention to our little areas of interest - "I want an upgraded version of BitBridge!!", "I need V-Vocal to be improved", "I demand AudioSnap be re-worked" etc. In the process each and every one of us somehow presumes that our use of the product mirrors 99% of the user population... When dedicated tools such as Sibelius exist and will integrate with Sonar, why not just use those? The product managers at Cakewalk aren't stupid. They do their research. They know what percentage of the market and of the existing users order the importance of various features and functionality in a DAW. The fact that staff view hasn't been touched since Adam was a lad is probably a fairly good indication that the financial model for devoting significant resources to it just isn't there. In their eyes, why would you devote 25% of your development resources and budget to upgrading a feature that will only be a selling point to 10% of the market? It doesn't make sense. For people who live and die by staff view, I am sure that financial reality sucks completely. But it is reality. And as a user who is just as happy to work in piano roll view as staff view, I really wouldn't want to see 25% of the next version's development resources and budget gobbled up by something that doesn't really do anything for me. In so saying, I am not trying to denigrate your need of such a feature or dismiss your concerns, rather, I am just trying to point out some of the financial realities of product management. Ciao, Q.
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Marah
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RE: Cakewalk: Are you listening to our notation requests?
2009/05/26 20:31:39
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What Qwerty69 said.
It's just not worth it to Cakewalk from a business point of view.
S'not gonna happen.
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Ham N Egz
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RE: Cakewalk: Are you listening to our notation requests?
2009/05/26 20:37:42
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+2 to Qwerty69 and Marah,
its the Bengamins, baby
I know we have very vocal proponents for staff view improvments, but since the Roland marriage, just look at Rolands involvement in
notation ...anyone???
Green Acres is the place to be I dont twitter, facebook, snapchat, instagram,linkedin,tumble,pinterest,flick, blah blah,lets have an old fashioned conversation!
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InstrEd
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RE: Cakewalk: Are you listening to our notation requests?
2009/05/26 21:21:55
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In the process each and every one of us somehow presumes that our use of the product mirrors 99% of the user population... Actually, I don't think my needs mirror the rest here. I even agreed the audio engine had to get top priority with the way Reaper is coming on. But, Cubase has had usable notation for a long time. So it is not like I'm and the others here are asking for something that can't be done. All Cakewalk has to do is fix the shortcoming in staff view (triplets for one) and add MusicXML import/export support. Way better option then having rewire support like Sibleus 6 does now. Really don't see the need for that, plus rewire is only 32bit at the moment. I hope to go 64bit on my next DAW build. Ed
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vmw
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RE: Cakewalk: Are you listening to our notation requests?
2009/05/26 23:15:20
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ORIGINAL: Qwerty69
For people who live and die by staff view, I am sure that financial reality sucks completely. But it is reality. And as a user who is just as happy to work in piano roll view as staff view, I really wouldn't want to see 25% of the next version's development resources and budget gobbled up by something that doesn't really do anything for me. In so saying, I am not trying to denigrate your need of such a feature or dismiss your concerns, rather, I am just trying to point out some of the financial realities of product management.
Ciao,
Q.
Your “financial realities of product management†is clearly Lowest Common Denominator. If that is the case then why do software companies have less feature rich releases of their flagship apps? Why have flagship or professional releases at all? What percentage of Sonar users are professionals in the music business?
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PaPi
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RE: Cakewalk: Are you listening to our notation requests?
2009/05/26 23:56:47
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ORIGINAL: twinkielk15
quote:
ORIGINAL: InstrEd
I have to agree with you on that. All I got from Alex last year is when Sonar 8 was due. I said I hope staff view improvements are coming or I'll be disappointed. He answered, well I guess you will be disappointed. Said it couldn't make it for Sonar 8 timetable. So I'm really hoping that Sonar 9 is the charm this time. If it is I'll find a way to upgrade right away. If not, I'll upgrade, but in the spring when there is a sale.
Ed
I'm going to have to find another solution if notation is not upgraded. I really dread learning another DAW but I really have to have usable notation.
+1
I am already shopping. Too bad too. I really do love Sonar but this is a glaring shortcoming for many of us.
It's no coincidence I'm using Sonar 8 **AND** Cubase 5. I'd really love to stick to just one DAW...
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PaPi
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RE: Cakewalk: Are you listening to our notation requests?
2009/05/27 00:00:23
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ORIGINAL: InstrEd
I have Finale already, and so I don't think I be leaving Sonar. never know though. The one that I would jump ship is Cubase, but I hate dongles.
I don't need sophisticated music-printing features, because I have Sibelius for that. What I need is USABLE NOTATION-BASED EDITING TOOLS. I'm sorry I'm old-school, but I can identify and select notes on a music staff way faster than using PRV, especially if it's a chord.
post edited by PaPi - 2009/05/27 00:29:05
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Guitarpima
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RE: Cakewalk: Are you listening to our notation requests?
2009/05/27 00:13:11
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PRV is lame. I wish they would give us usable notation as well. It would make things a LOT easier.
Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy. Win 7 x64 X2 Intel DX58SO, Intel i7 920 2.66ghz 12gb DDR3 ASUS ATI EAH5750 650w PSU 4x WD HDs 320gb DVD, DVD RW Eleven Rack, KRK Rokit 8s and 10s sub
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twinkielk15
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RE: Cakewalk: Are you listening to our notation requests?
2009/05/27 00:33:26
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It's obvious that this is not a priority to most users. I directly acknowledged that in my previous post. I'm not here to complain. I love Sonar. Wholly and completely. But to ME it is something that just has to be there. That's fine with me if it's not worth it to them. I understand it from a business standpoint. But I need whether or not the other million users do. I would be sorry to leave Sonar. But it's that important... for ME.
Regards,
Steve
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PaPi
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RE: Cakewalk: Are you listening to our notation requests?
2009/05/27 00:40:15
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ORIGINAL: twinkielk15
It's obvious that this is not a priority to most users. I directly acknowledged that in my previous post. I'm not here to complain. I love Sonar. Wholly and completely. But to ME it is something that just has to be there. That's fine with me if it's not worth it to them. I understand it from a business standpoint. But I need whether or not the other million users do. I would be sorry to leave Sonar. But it's that important... for ME.
Regards,
Steve
Trust me, you're not alone. Anyone who can read music would take notation-based editing over PRV any day. It would be foolish of Cakewalk to ignore/overlook that.
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Marah
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RE: Cakewalk: Are you listening to our notation requests?
2009/05/27 01:39:28
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But it's not that simple. Notation based editing is not as precise as PRV -- it's in effect quantized to the smallest note division you want to use... 64th notes... 128th notes... how low can you go? PRV gives you tick-division precision on both note position and length, and more precise control over dynamics. PRV is actual performance. Notation is performance instructions. They serve different purposes. For most DAW users, PRV is more important... that's why Sonar's notation is gathering dust. Understand, I'm NOT arguing against the need for notation. I would love decent notation in my DAW, and have been trying various notation programs, most recently a demo of Quick Score Elite. And (like I think I said before) I wouldn't even be a hard core user and I'd want something better than what Sonar has. What I notice is that even the simple notation programs, like Finale Notepad, are actually pretty sophisticated and deep. I haven't scratched the surface of any of them... and to be honest, don't really want to. Their learning crescendos are steeper than I want to climb for the occasional melody line or bass part. But that's just me. Maybe CW should do a bundling deal with one of the notation developers, maybe do some minimal integration, or direct menu-accessibility... include an LE version... with an option to upgrade... I dunno. But I'd be shocked if they did anything with Sonar's notation other than maybe change the color scheme of the buttons or some other minor mostly cosmetic change. EDIT: I'm sticking with my prediction that if there's a 'Sonar 9' it won't be at the conventional time. And that they're gonna have to come up with something more wowing than a notation update, new dynamics plugin, or even free Rapture Pro (which is practically a given I'd bet.) As much as it needs notation, Sonar's been reasonably competitive without it, that is, with what's it's got. Sonar needs things like variable playback rate and an envelope overhaul infinitely more. That's where it's losing its competitiveness.
post edited by Marah - 2009/05/27 02:03:58
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MurderDethKill
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RE: Cakewalk: Are you listening to our notation requests?
2009/05/27 02:14:45
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mmm, we talking about Roland, right?
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vintagevibe
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RE: Cakewalk: Are you listening to our notation requests?
2009/05/27 08:13:07
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Staff view is not so much an editing tool as a composition tool. If all you do is slap a few loops together or play guitar rock you may not need it. If, however, you deal with harmony and need to do voice leading it is essential. To all the people talking about "fiscal reality" or saying that notation is not necessary I ask - why do you think that Steinberg, Apple, MOTU and Digidesign see it as necessary? The only one of the top DAWs that doesn't have decent notation is Sonar. I guess Cakewalk is "leading the way" but not including usable notatoin and adding those desperatly needed, hard to find TR808 sounds to Session Drummer.
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Alabaster
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RE: Cakewalk: Are you listening to our notation requests?
2009/05/27 10:12:40
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ORIGINAL: LarryAlex
ORIGINAL: PaPi
ORIGINAL: InstrEd
I have Finale already, and so I don't think I be leaving Sonar. never know though. The one that I would jump ship is Cubase, but I hate dongles.
I don't need sophisticated music-printing features, because I have Sibelius for that. What I need is USABLE NOTATION-BASED EDITING TOOLS. I'm sorry I'm old-school, but I can identify and select notes on a music staff way faster than using PRV, especially if it's a chord.
Amen! I agree completely.
+1
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bmdaustin
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RE: Cakewalk: Are you listening to our notation requests?
2009/05/27 11:47:03
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ORIGINAL: vintagevibe
Staff view is not so much an editing tool as a composition tool.
For me it's just the opposite. I would never try to write anything in Staff View, but, as a college trained composer/instrumentalist, Staff View is the only View I use for editing because it's the only one that presents the musical data in a format that I can quickly and easily identify. It's way too much trouble to find which blob or bar is the one particular Ab I need to correct when I can just look at a staff and find it immediately. Sonar is useless to me without Staff View.
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vintagevibe
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RE: Cakewalk: Are you listening to our notation requests?
2009/05/27 17:33:33
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ORIGINAL: bmdaustin
ORIGINAL: vintagevibe
Staff view is not so much an editing tool as a composition tool.
For me it's just the opposite. I would never try to write anything in Staff View, but, as a college trained composer/instrumentalist, Staff View is the only View I use for editing because it's the only one that presents the musical data in a format that I can quickly and easily identify. It's way too much trouble to find which blob or bar is the one particular Ab I need to correct when I can just look at a staff and find it immediately. Sonar is useless to me without Staff View.
Interesting. I get the harmony and rhythm in Staff View and them go to the PRV for subtle length and all velocity edits.
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Guitarpima
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RE: Cakewalk: Are you listening to our notation requests?
2009/05/27 18:04:43
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I can't imagine trying to write in PRV mode. I tried a few times and it is so rediculous to the extreme. Notation is imensely faster. Useless with Sonar though. You can't do subdivisions past 16th notes and forget about triplets or another odd number per beat(s).
post edited by Guitarpima - 2009/05/27 18:15:30
Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy. Win 7 x64 X2 Intel DX58SO, Intel i7 920 2.66ghz 12gb DDR3 ASUS ATI EAH5750 650w PSU 4x WD HDs 320gb DVD, DVD RW Eleven Rack, KRK Rokit 8s and 10s sub
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InstrEd
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RE: Cakewalk: Are you listening to our notation requests?
2009/05/27 21:18:46
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Care to give us loyal users a hint please Ed
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g_randybrown
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RE: Cakewalk: Are you listening to our notation requests?
2009/05/27 21:19:33
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YAY!!
Thanks very much Alex!!!!
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pbognar
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RE: Cakewalk: Are you listening to our notation requests?
2009/05/27 21:29:59
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ORIGINAL: Alex Westner [Cakewalk]
Yes, I'm listening.
Cool - thanks for the reply. At least we know we're not talking in a cave... I think for the most part, we are just looking for parity (or something approaching it) with Sonar's competitors.
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vmw
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RE: Cakewalk: Are you listening to our notation requests?
2009/05/27 23:44:24
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ORIGINAL: Alex Westner [Cakewalk]
... The bad news is that it's still a ton of work that I haven't been able to schedule into a product cycle.
Thanks for the feedback. However, given the number of versions of Sonar et al where nothing has been done with the staff view then the past time frame amounts to years. Just how many years do you need? It seems to me that you are saying “we knowâ€; but in reality no new code is ever going to be done for an upgraded staff view.
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vmw
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RE: Cakewalk: Are you listening to our notation requests?
2009/05/27 23:49:38
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ORIGINAL: Marah
...And that they're gonna have to come up with something more wowing than a notation update, new dynamics plugin, or even free Rapture Pro (which is practically a given I'd bet.) ... Also don't forget, now that cake have dropped Project5 there are a number of items in it that will no doubt appear in an upcoming Sonar.
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vintagevibe
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RE: Cakewalk: Are you listening to our notation requests?
2009/05/28 00:20:35
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ORIGINAL: Alex Westner [Cakewalk]
Unfortunately, I don't have anything else to add.
We're listening, we understand the requests, we understand the shortcomings of our current notation feature set.
I'll give it to you straight, as you guys are loyal customers and we appreciate that very much!
As others have postulated, that part of our codebase is among the most difficult for us to update / improve upon. This is the #1 (and only) reason why it's been challenging for us to make the changes we need to make, no matter how big or small.
The good news is that we, in Cakewalk Product Development, know what we need to do, and we have ideas and designs on just how to git 'er done. The bad news is that it's still a ton of work that I haven't been able to schedule into a product cycle.
First, thanks for replying. We've been feeling very much left out in the cold. Second, is it fair to say that your last sentence means that it is low priority?
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