Beepster

Edit:  To avoid the sense of "hit and run" and leaving it at the glib "+!", here are some things I liked before with layers: - screen real estate:  using the track space with all the layers - screen real estate:  being able to see multiple tracks with layers at one time - workflow:  rebuild function  - workflow:  cross-fading clips between layers was easier - workflow:  quick toggle for layer display without tracks shifting to accommodate - and others that I can't think of off-hand

Okay... I'll give this a shot.

- screen real estate:  using the track space with all the layers

Not sure what you mean by that.

screen real estate:  being able to see multiple tracks with layers at one time

You can but you have to disable Auto Zoom. This can be done with Shift + Z to avoid having to go into the Track View menus every time.

workflow:  rebuild function

Yeah that should be reintroduced but selecting and bouncing to clips works or just holding Shift and dragging the clips into the lane you want isn't THAT much of a pain.

workflow:  cross-fading clips between layers was easier

I don't see how. It works almost exactly the same as before with manual fades as far as I can tell and the auto crossfade feature (which I never used before X2 admittedly) is just a matter of enabling it/choosing the desired X-Fade in the Track View Options Menu.

workflow:  quick toggle for layer display without tracks shifting to accommodate - and others that I can't think of off-hand

Again I think this is solved by turning off Auto Zoom (if I'm understanding the issue correctly).

Auto Zoom is kind of a pain in the Bleeples in many situations. Toggling it is something I've gotten into the habit of doing. However I find I leave it off most of the time. We didn't even have that feature in X1 so it's no big loss but it is nice to have when I want to use it.

Cheers.

Thanks Beepster, I know you are trying to be helpful, and in some of your responses you needed clarification.  SO here it is:


- screen real estate:  using the track space with all the layers 

Previously, when you toggled a track's view to display layers, the space that the track occupied exactly equalled the space allocated to layers.  A bit like what you experience now with envelopes when you toggle the view for display within the track (as opposed to across several lanes, which you can also do with envelope lanes).  Those two options for viewing you have with envelopes each have their uses.  One provides a quick-edit convenience without changing track heights, and the other offers greater clarity on an individual envelope basis.  I like both, and most often I want my track heights to stay as is as I quickly toggle views from track to track.



screen real estate:  being able to see multiple tracks with layers at one time 

When I'm composing an idea, I may use several takes for (say) guitar on one track, and then on another track several takes for bass, and maybe several keyboard takes on another.  With layers I can view all three tracks easily on one screen at the SAME TIME.  I can then toggle their respective layer views and my selection of takes on one track might be influenced by what I select on another track.  In X1 layers this was easily possible.  In X2 this is pretty much impossible to do.



workflow:  rebuild function 

Quoting your response here: "Yeah that should be reintroduced but selecting and bouncing to clips works or just holding Shift and dragging the clips into the lane you want isn't THAT much of a pain."

Actually, if you are quickly jumping across layers and making fast edits on a long song, then the rebuild function is supremely convenient.  But I agree that this could/should be added as a feature for the new lanes paradigm and is not something that is predicated on the existence of layers.


workflow:  cross-fading clips between layers was easier 

Quoting you:   "I don't see how. It works almost exactly the same as before with manual fades as far as I can tell and the auto crossfade feature (which I never used before X2 admittedly) is just a matter of enabling it/choosing the desired X-Fade in the Track View Options Menu."

I'm not so sure I agree that it is the same but it is entirely possible that I have missed an option to enable this feature.  Note that I already have auto-crossfades turned on.  My issue is that I used to be able to drag the edges of two separate clips that existed on two different layers in one go.  I'd love to be able to do that again and I have to believe it's there somewhere still because surely more people would complain about it.

workflow:  quick toggle for layer display without tracks shifting to accommodate


See my first point above.  When I toggle between layers and non-layers view in X1, all the tracks stay exactly where they are on the screen.  I can no longer do this with take lanes and it slows down MY workflow.  Maybe no one else's, but it's been a nuisance for me.

Beepster


I think the current incarnation is just a launchpad for future versions. Yeah, they got a way to go but I gotta say as an outsider coming in the layers thing was pretty wacky and not very professional. Something needed to be done and it seems they decided to rip off the band aid real quick. Sadly I think we're stuck with them more or less as they are until X3 comes out.

Cheers.

That's the problem there are too many "launchpads" in the X series.  Waiting 2 or 3+ version's for various things to be brought up to par or just too get back to what we had, is simply too long especially now that development times are up to 18 months between versions.
 
Dan

Thanks Beepster, I know you are trying to be helpful, and in some of your responses you needed clarification.  SO here it is:

Right on. I do try. I'm having a bit of a hard time visualizing your workflow so I don't think I can be of much more use (if I was at all). IDK... I really do prefer them but as I said as a relative newcomer to Sonar and having spent approx. equal time with both I never got too entrenched into the Layers method. At first I really liked them coming from an ancient version of Nuendo which didn't have any kind of layers or lanes but once I dug into Layers it just turned into a mess. I think a lot of the problem is it is such a drastic change for guys like yourself it's too much of a radical change all at once. Add to that the bugs and quirky behavior and I can definitely see it being a huge hassle. I hope eventually they get fixed up to a point you find them useable. Cheers.

> The whole point that a few folks here seem to keep missing is "you do not completely remove a feature that many liked and replace it with a half baked-almost there version of the same thing.
 
I agree but it's fruitless complaining about it. What is done is done. Even companies like Apple do it (replaced google maps with their own half baked version, and apologised afterwards when people couldn't reinstall google maps at the time). So now we have to live with this (tempting, but there is no point in moaning).

I feel take lanes could be great... but sadly the feature needs to go much further for it to be truly useful.

Cake I hope you are listening. I hope by X2B or X2C you will have this in the bag. You've got the right idea but it needs to be developed further.
 
(and PS PLEASE give me the ability to QUICKLY rename a project within the UI).

That's the problem there are too many "launchpads" in the X series.  Waiting 2 or 3+ version's for various things to be brought up to par or just too get back to what we had, is simply too long especially now that development times are up to 18 months between versions.   Dan

That is definitely a problem. I like X1/2 but I seem to have stumbled into the Sonar world at a rather hectic period of it's life. I've heard many here talk about the 8.whatever versions and I think I would have liked it very much... but I wanted something modern so that's what I got.

They really need to get the next patch going though. I've been working through the manual and an alarming amount of features detailed in it just simply do not work. It's rather frustrating spending so much time learning stuff only to have it do absolutely nothing. Fortunately most of the meat and potatoes stuff does what I need it to. Kind of want a notation patch though even if it is paid and comes from a third party. I was hoping that feature would help me hone my traditional theory skills but from my limited experience with it and the numerous complaints I decided to just bypass it entirely.

Cheers. 

I've been working through the manual and an alarming amount of features detailed in it just simply do not work. It's rather frustrating spending so much time learning stuff only to have it do absolutely nothing.

Well my view is that if you want everything to be perfect then install the previous version (X1). That will have the final service pack (X1D).... If you want innovation that is slightly rough round the edges then use the latest version with the latest service pack (X2A). Software takes a long time to develop as it is so complex, and the cheapest way nowadays is to let the users test it. Unless you prefer the price of Sonar to go up into the thousands.
 
Please don't expect software nowadays to be mature until the final service pack is launched. That's just the way it is.

I posted in another instance that I personally would pay $700-$800 for a version of Sonar that has been through a "critical mass" test-bed. In other words, offer up a reward for beta testing the software and use this higher price to pay incentives to those who can reliably submit bugs. As it is today, there's absolutely no incentive to report bugs (no monetary thanks, no thank you from Cakewalk, no credit, nothing but a ticket # and a form to fill out), so many will go unreported. Call THIS version of Sonar "Sonar Commercial" for those who make money with it, and THEN they will compete with ProTools on a more level playing field. 

Keep the current level of software for those who don't use it for business needs, and they can play with features on those versions. 

But first, Cakewalk needs to change the culture. Culture makes for better product. I work for a company who's success is strongly due to the culture that surround it. Roland needs to "let" them do what they (and we) know needs to be done. I'm NOT kidding! 

No you're not selfish to think that. But the way it's done is simply part of biz in a publicly traded company. I'm not faulting Roland or Cakewalk, because part of releasing new code or features is with the understanding that some support calls will help them realize a certain percentage of bugs. In the 90's I worked for a major telecomm hardware manufacturer as a guy who hunts down and finds bugs. It's what I was paid to do, and I was pretty good at it. That's part of why I found at least three bugs in X2 within 10-15 minutes after installing it. I know how to hunt for bugs. I was trained for it. Not everyone is that way. 

Part I of my training was to run through hundreds of pages of Design Verification Tests (DVT's) testing all things the engineers deemed necessary, then,

Part II of my training was using the product and trying to break it. This is where my creativity paid off.

My engineering group was the most successful at releasing bug-free products which remained at the lowest Revision levels in the whole company. We were praised for that. Now I work as a Network Engineer for my day-job, and hit up Sonar at night. So, any time I spend for Cakewalk is on my dime, not someone else's. I know how you feel. 

brconflict


I posted in another instance that I personally would pay $700-$800 for a version of Sonar that has been through a "critical mass" test-bed. In other words, offer up a reward for beta testing the software and use this higher price to pay incentives to those who can reliably submit bugs. As it is today, there's absolutely no incentive to report bugs (no monetary thanks, no thank you from Cakewalk, no credit, nothing but a ticket # and a form to fill out), so many will go unreported. Call THIS version of Sonar "Sonar Commercial" for those who make money with it, and THEN they will compete with ProTools on a more level playing field. 

Keep the current level of software for those who don't use it for business needs, and they can play with features on those versions. 

But first, Cakewalk needs to change the culture. Culture makes for better product. I work for a company who's success is strongly due to the culture that surround it. Roland needs to "let" them do what they (and we) know needs to be done. I'm NOT kidding! 

Did you read post #75? If you want stability as you think this is critical for business then use X1D (the previous version). This is what some companies do, for instance there is no way a bank will install Windows 8 right now... not in their right minds. So there's absolutely no reason why people have to pay more, and anyway clearly there is a market for this product in this price range.

Well... here's an extremely obnoxious bug that I haven't encountered before. When I mute previous take lanes the damned things aren't muted when I try to record another pass. If I click the mute buttons again they'll mute but when I try to record they are audible. This is stupid and I have no idea why it has just started doing this now. Grr...

@Alex... I recorded an entire project without experiencing that one. The only difference is I am recording into two tracks at the same time as opposed to recording into one and cloning after. 

The workaround seems to be just muting the actual clips instead of using the mute buttons so I'd say this most definitely is a take lanes issue.

Lame.

I have to say that, overall, I really do like X2a and that things are beginning to click again for me. 

Although I've been using Cakewalk software since the floppy DOS days, I probably spent the most concentrated time in Sonar 8.0 to 8.5 finishing three albums over a couple of years.  Sonar X1 came out in the intervening years and it was hard to make the switch, both visually and workflow-ly (sp?) even though I felt they needed to do "something" to move forward.

I am clicking better with X2a (pun intended), and I believe touch to be a necessary step forward.  I am missing layers though, but perhaps if enough is done with Take Lanes that I'll be able to regain the efficiency in my workflow.  Hopefully that'll be sooner than later.

Beepster


Well... here's an extremely obnoxious bug that I haven't encountered before. When I mute previous take lanes the damned things aren't muted when I try to record another pass. If I click the mute buttons again they'll mute but when I try to record they are audible. This is stupid and I have no idea why it has just started doing this now. Grr...

I ran into that one. I think it's something of a bug, but it could be I mis-understand Cakewalk's implementation of the Mute in Lanes. I did have it happen a few times, but I also had it not happen a few times. I dunno. 

I also ran into an issue where I found that Sonar maybe was trying to run the previous lanes through the Audio-Engine, but muting them afterward so I couldn't hear them. In other words, if I recorded more Lanes, I was more likely to encounter a drop-out. 

CakeAlexS


> if the teams don't fully understand how this method works, there's little hope in truly adopting it--especially if there's team members who don't feel it works for them

So that's a training issue, easily sorted. And if it isn't the the trainers need training (or money).

> I personally think it's more to do with the lack of QA, not SCRUM failure.
So improve QA, manage it better. Introduce automated testing. Get them away from the marketeers and get them in touch with developers (who love ignoring QA people).


Anyway it would cost a LOT of money to do an "enterprise version" ... You need a lot of resources and time for full bug testing across a lot of platforms and hardware, it's not just a simple matter of going through the manual, and Cake will end up charging customers thousands, profits will dive as people won't pay that (esp home studios, and there's only about 3 real recording studios left nowadays, OK I'm kidding but you get what I mean).

The good news is though that maybe over the next few years Cake will get their tests better automated, but to do that takes time and resources.

And like I say you already have X1D. That is finished. That is stable. You can use it, and then go and use X2 when X3 comes out. If stability is your goal always use the previous version!!!

Yep, Yep, and Yep. They need more QA, or more time. Yes, Dev DOES ignore QA often in many cases. I've always said in the world of Network Security, the business will always win (which typically means risk of a breach is higher). In Cakewalk's case, and I'm not saying anything unsaid before, they want to compete in the game, and price IS a factor. 

Oh, and I'm still using X1d now and again, especially for a paying session. It has bugs of it's own, and issues carried over into X2 and X2a, but all I'm asking is Cakewalk add a few bodies to better QA, or, as you mentioned, automated testing. 

RFC1925 - Item (7a) : It applies here, too. 

I ran into that one. I think it's something of a bug, but it could be I mis-understand Cakewalk's implementation of the Mute in Lanes. I did have it happen a few times, but I also had it not happen a few times. I dunno. 

This is definitely not intentional as far as I can tell. I read about the lanes pretty extensively and no where was this behavior mentioned. Also when this was happening when I'd click the mute button while it was on it wouldn't disengage the first try sometimes. Manually clicking the Record button in the Transport Module would sometimes keep the takes silent but sometimes not. Pressing R on the keyboard to start recording seemed to consistently make the muted takes audible.

The weird thing is, as I said, I recorded and entire project which involved MANY takes without this happening. It was only one track recorded at a time though and I just realized it was before I applied the Quickfix (which is the only patch I have installed as X2a is getting far too many complaints). Oh and I'm using the full upgraded version of TH2 as opposed to the Producer version that came with X2 and there are two Zeta+2 tracks on this recording. BFD was used on the last track and I believe I had everything routed the same way (sending BFD and the guitars to their own bus)

tl;dr...

Only things I'm doing different are...

Recording two takes at once

Using TH2 full version as opposed to the TH2 Producer

Two Zeta+ tracks

Installed Quickfix

At least I got some confirmation (and rather quickly) that this is a known issue. I'm rather surprised I haven't seen this mentioned before and even MORE surprised that something so crucial was overlooked in the initial release let alone after two patches.

Not cool. Fortunately muting the clips works but that's pretty bad. The Take Lane record buttons were faulty upon initial release as well but I haven't used them since then so IDK if they've been fixed. I don't really need those anyway.

Meh, as you guys can see as much as I do like the new lanes I'm certainly not turning a blind eye to their problems.

I'm still buzzing about how cool my guitars were sounding with my Line 6 and TH2 though so I'm a happy Beep tonight. I think I'm just gonna stop pissing around and record a whole metal album. It's what I know and I think my old "fans" will appreciate it.

Yay, metal... and blathering on about stuff on the forum.

;-p