Calling anyone who knows about electronics!

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marcos69
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics! 2011/02/16 13:15:27 (permalink)
I just grill my steaks.

Mark Wessels

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Ham N Egz
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics! 2011/02/16 13:19:49 (permalink)
MEHHH these people do it for me AND do the dishes




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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics! 2011/02/16 14:03:30 (permalink)
Isn't this the part of the experiment where some mad scientist (or expendable lab tech) says, "It's so simple.  What could possibly go wrong?"  Such statements are almost always followed promptly by a blinding flash, billowing smoke, and/or a mushroom cloud.

Survivors of such incidents usually say the same sort of comments. 

"He was a loner." 
"Well, it all started when him and Jud and Leroy were sittin' around drinkin'." 
"I swear.  I did not know a person could explode like that." 
"I heard what they was talkin' about and I know'd it was time to reach Minimum Safe Distance." 
"There was a big flash, then a loud bang, like being hit in the head by two frying pans, then the whole trailer flew up about 10 feet in the air.  It was pretty cool."
#33
jamescollins
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics! 2011/02/16 17:45:08 (permalink)
Karyn - I'm not pretending I know what i'm talking about - I know I've got no idea! But I also know that once I know how to wire it up, it will be easy.

The PID is model number CD101-FK02-V*AN-NN

The only other bit of info I can give on the relay in addition to the info in post 15, is that in the middle, it says, "Solid state relay SSR-20 DA 20A/240V"

And relax, I'm not going to try anything until I'm sure I won't die!

I'll have three fingers of Glenlivet, with a little bit of pepper... and some cheese.
 
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Karyn
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics! 2011/02/16 18:10:36 (permalink)
Hi James.

Well....    your PID is built for type K thermocouples, the RTD you have won't work.   That's the "K02" in the model number.

The good news is that it gives a voltage output, but I need to check the data sheet for your SSR. Do I assume you got that from Sure Electronics as well?   I've dealt with Sure a few times before so I know where to search for the data sheets.

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marcos69
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics! 2011/02/16 18:11:33 (permalink)
UbiquitousBubba


Isn't this the part of the experiment where some mad scientist (or expendable lab tech) says, "It's so simple.  What could possibly go wrong?"  Such statements are almost always followed promptly by a blinding flash, billowing smoke, and/or a mushroom cloud.

Survivors of such incidents usually say the same sort of comments. 

"He was a loner." 
"Well, it all started when him and Jud and Leroy were sittin' around drinkin'." 
"I swear.  I did not know a person could explode like that." 
"I heard what they was talkin' about and I know'd it was time to reach Minimum Safe Distance." 
"There was a big flash, then a loud bang, like being hit in the head by two frying pans, then the whole trailer flew up about 10 feet in the air.  It was pretty cool."


It's the part where our hero says "here, hold my beer".

Mark Wessels

At CD Baby

At Soundclick
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jamescollins
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics! 2011/02/16 18:29:39 (permalink)
Hmm, that sux that it won't work - here is the package I bought: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110648259803#ht_2187wt_657

They've advertised it as a bundle, so if it doesn't work, it must be refund time
post edited by jamescollins - 2011/02/16 18:31:12

I'll have three fingers of Glenlivet, with a little bit of pepper... and some cheese.
 
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#37
Karyn
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics! 2011/02/16 19:53:21 (permalink)
Well,  if it came as a package then try it...    but according to the manual the K02 in the model number means it is meant for a type K thermocouple.

Anyway,  here's the diagram you wanted.  just subtitute the thermo for your RTD on 10, 11, 12 as per the manual.


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Beagle
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics! 2011/02/16 21:58:06 (permalink)
another thing to mention, however is that the specs on the DIY page that Mike referenced stated to use a J type thermocouple.  If it were me I would not use a K type thermocouple for what you are intending to use it for.  J is the better type.

K type thermocouples' range is way too broad for use as a measurement for cooking.  the range is from  -328 °F to +2462 °F. 

the J type thermocouple has a range of -38°F to 1382°F
while that may still seem like it's too large of a range, it's still better suited for cooking temperatures than other types are, especially the K, E and N types.

I think I would return the unit and get something more suited to your needs.  OR go buy a J Type thermocouple - the instructions to place it are pretty clear and the thermocouple itself will be pretty inexpensive.
post edited by Beagle - 2011/02/17 01:03:22

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#39
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics! 2011/02/16 23:31:23 (permalink)
Beagle


another thing to mention, however is that the specs on the DIY page that Mike referenced stated to use a J type thermocouple.  If it were me I would not use a K type thermocouple for what you are intending to use it for.  J is the better type.

K type thermocouples' range is way too broad for use as a measurement for cooking.  the range is from  -328 °F to +2462 °F. 

the J type thermocouple has a range of -38°F to 1382°F
while that may still seem like it's too large of a range, it's still better suited for cooking temperatures than other types are, especially the K, E and N types.

I think I would return the unit and get something more suited to your needs.
What are you guys making here, a smelting pot? :)




"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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jamescollins
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics! 2011/02/17 05:31:27 (permalink)
Thanks a lot Karyn, you're a star! Should have it finished soon...

I'll have three fingers of Glenlivet, with a little bit of pepper... and some cheese.
 
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics! 2011/02/17 08:13:21 (permalink)
Karyn


Well,  if it came as a package then try it...    but according to the manual the K02 in the model number means it is meant for a type K thermocouple.

Anyway,  here's the diagram you wanted.  just subtitute the thermo for your RTD on 10, 11, 12 as per the manual.


I guess I also thought that the relay was built into the main device.

This set up seems like a messy counter top. :-)

I have cord phobia.

Nice Job Karyn!!!


#42
Karyn
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics! 2011/02/17 09:32:57 (permalink)
Bub
 
What are you guys making here, a smelting pot? :)
LOL,  no.    It's basicaly a fancy thermostat for a hot water cooker.
 
A standard mechanical or electronic thermostat simply turns the heater on if it's too cold and turns it off when it's to hot. This sounds ok but you get a relatively large temperature change and the water temp can rise well above the "set" temp due to residual heat in the element,etc.
 
Sous Vide cooking relies on having a very constant low cooking temperature for an extended period of time.  This cooks the food without destroying the cell structure, and thus the texture.
 
The PID temperature controller learns the rate of heating/cooling so it can predict when to turn the element on/off and keep a very constant temp.  It's exactly the same principle as the ABS in your car that measures changes in wheel speed and predicts when a wheel is going to lockup and loose grip.
 
As you can prolly tell, process control is one of my areas of expertise.

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#43
jackn2mpu
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics! 2011/02/17 09:33:12 (permalink)
Seems simple enough to do once one gets a handle on things.
Jamescollins is going to have to bypass the controller in the cooker in question. I would actually totally disconnect the internals and hook right up to the element. The second thing is he's going to need some type of circulation system elsewise there will be hot spots and cold spots and the benefits of sous vide cooking won't happen. When you see these things on Iron Chef you can see the circulation action going on.

I actually home-brewed up a system like this 40 years ago to control the temps in a water bath for the film tanks when I was developing my own camera film. SCR & controller out of the old RCA databook hooked up to an immersion heater and an aquarium pump to move the water. Worked quite well.

Jack
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics! 2011/02/17 10:20:09 (permalink)
Now I see why the darn commercial versions are $500..

the R&D, fabrication, etc plus good old mark up

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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics! 2011/02/17 10:31:22 (permalink)
jackn2mpu


Seems simple enough to do once one gets a handle on things.
Jamescollins is going to have to bypass the controller in the cooker in question. I would actually totally disconnect the internals and hook right up to the element. The second thing is he's going to need some type of circulation system elsewise there will be hot spots and cold spots and the benefits of sous vide cooking won't happen. When you see these things on Iron Chef you can see the circulation action going on.

I actually home-brewed up a system like this 40 years ago to control the temps in a water bath for the film tanks when I was developing my own camera film. SCR & controller out of the old RCA databook hooked up to an immersion heater and an aquarium pump to move the water. Worked quite well.


The DIY page I linked to used an aquarium aerator to help with circulation.

There's something about cooking your food in a sealed plastic bag that seems, to me, to offset the health benefits of sous vide cooking.





#46
jackn2mpu
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics! 2011/02/17 11:40:19 (permalink)
mike_mccue


There's something about cooking your food in a sealed plastic bag that seems, to me, to offset the health benefits of sous vide cooking.


You got that right. All the chemicals from the plastic leaching into your food - I know there's supposedly plastic you can cook in that's safe but I dunno about that.

And let's not forget about the plastic taste as well.

Give me a stove top and a couple of decent pots and pans and I'll cook you a meal that's as healthy as you want (or don't) without any gimmicks like sous vide 'cooking'.

Jack
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#47
Bub
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics! 2011/02/17 11:44:41 (permalink)
Karyn


Bub
 
What are you guys making here, a smelting pot? :)
LOL,  no.    It's basicaly a fancy thermostat for a hot water cooker.
The circuit is identical in theory for what they use for controlling the fuser (the unit that bakes the toner to the paper) in analog and some digital copiers, it's just laid out a little different. Reminds me of the good old days when you could stick an ohm meter on a solid state component and tell in 2 seconds if it worked or not. Now you need a laptop, software, oscilloscope and needle probes. :)

"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics! 2011/02/17 12:49:15 (permalink)
Bub, I believe that, with the same equipment, you're also ready to go abduct aliens from their homeworld and "test" them. 
#49
jamescollins
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics! 2011/02/18 03:37:07 (permalink)
Many thanks again to Karyn, Mike and Beagle  - I've set it all up, and I'm still alive. You'll be pleased to learn that I even put heatshrink on my soldering joints, Karyn :-) It's all contained in a wooden box I made for it, safe and sound.

Karyn, the system is functioning correctly except for one thing - the RTD sensor is inaccurately reading the temperature. The PID switches power ON on the slow cooker when the actual temp is below the set temp, and switches power OFF on the cooker when it's below. So that's all functioning fine, but it's reading of the actual temperature is off by around 13 degrees C. Is this because my sensor is the wrong type, as you suggested earlier? If so, is it simply a case of replacing it with the correct type?

Thank you!


I'll have three fingers of Glenlivet, with a little bit of pepper... and some cheese.
 
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jamescollins
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics! 2011/02/18 03:49:53 (permalink)
Actually, the error is getting worse - it seems to just be staying on 37 degrees C. I'm going to go and by a K type thermocouple and see if that does the trick...

I'll have three fingers of Glenlivet, with a little bit of pepper... and some cheese.
 
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jamescollins
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics! 2011/02/18 05:03:44 (permalink)
I got a K type thermocouple, and now I get a 0000 error message on the front panel, which means the measured temperature is above what's it's capable of handling. This is obviously not the case! Any ideas?

I'll have three fingers of Glenlivet, with a little bit of pepper... and some cheese.
 
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Beagle
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics! 2011/02/18 08:34:58 (permalink)
I thought you already had a K Type that came with the unit?  that's what I was saying earlier that your system lists a K type thermocouple and you should be using a J Type.

also, when you get a J type thermocouple you shouldn't put it on the same sensor terminals.  I think Karyn mentioned that in the post with the diagram she made.

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jamescollins
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics! 2011/02/18 09:44:24 (permalink)
Beagle, as I understand it, my RTD sensor was a different beast - PT100 whatever that means!

Karyn and everyone, I can't thank you enough - as well as getting this thing working, you've probably also quite literally saved my life!! All problems solved, fully functional and beautiful - thanks again for taking the time to spell this out to someone who clearly has no idea about this kind of thing!

I'll have three fingers of Glenlivet, with a little bit of pepper... and some cheese.
 
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics! 2011/02/18 10:02:17 (permalink)
so it's working?

what's for dinner?


#55
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics! 2011/02/18 10:06:10 (permalink)
sorry, then I missed something.  I thought Karyn had said you were using K type.  I admit that I did not drudge thru the manual of that unit to determine what you had exactly.

the PT100 RTDs should be much more accurate and stable than standard thermocouples.  however, you should make sure that you have it connected to the correct sensor pins.  I assume Karyn verified that when she made her schematic drawing for you.  she put it on the K terminals, so I assume that's where it's supposed to go.

anyway - does your last post mean you've got it working?

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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics! 2011/02/18 10:14:56 (permalink)
I'd love to see some pictures of the guts of this thing now that you're done.

Please post some. :)

"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics! 2011/02/18 10:36:07 (permalink)
I keep thinking...you have the right to self combust...so long as it is not in mah house....

The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate.

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jamescollins
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics! 2011/02/18 11:51:06 (permalink)
Ahhh! I spoke too soon - still reading the wrong temperature.

I am back on the RTD sensor, and I have - hooked up to pin 12, + hooked up to pin 11, and the third wire (which I assume is some sort of trigger?) is on pin 10. It's odd, because when I configure the PID so that it 'knows' I'm using a PT100, it doesn't give a reading at all, just the 0000 error message, which, according to the manual, means either the temp is too hot, the polarity is inverted, or there is no device connected. When the PID is set up for a K type, I at least get a reading, but it's wrong.

When I had the K type hooked up, room temperature reading was correct, but the indicated temp moved in the opposite direction to the actual temp, ie. when the water got hotter, the temperature read out got cooler.

I've posted a couple of pics which will hopefully help - yes, laugh away - I'm the first to admit I'm a total amateur, and it's looking very messy right now as I'm still tinkering around with it. When it works I'll tidy everything up and get rid of that earth wire. I triple checked the polarity of all connections as per Karyn's diagram, so they should be fine.

This is really frustrating - hopefully when I wake up the answer will be here so I can cook this pork in time for Sunday dinner!



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post edited by jamescollins - 2011/02/18 11:54:02

I'll have three fingers of Glenlivet, with a little bit of pepper... and some cheese.
 
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#59
Beagle
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics! 2011/02/18 13:12:29 (permalink)
jamescollins


Ahhh! I spoke too soon - still reading the wrong temperature.

I am back on the RTD sensor, and I have - hooked up to pin 12, + hooked up to pin 11, and the third wire (which I assume is some sort of trigger?) is on pin 10. It's odd, because when I configure the PID so that it 'knows' I'm using a PT100, it doesn't give a reading at all, just the 0000 error message, which, according to the manual, means either the temp is too hot, the polarity is inverted, or there is no device connected. When the PID is set up for a K type, I at least get a reading, but it's wrong.

When I had the K type hooked up, room temperature reading was correct, but the indicated temp moved in the opposite direction to the actual temp, ie. when the water got hotter, the temperature read out got cooler.
that means you had the terminals hooked up with the polarily switched.  switch them and then it will work properly.
 
as far as the RTD, it would best for this set up if you can get it to work instead of the k type thermocouple.  let me look at the manual and I'll see if I can tell if you have those correct or not.

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