jamescollins
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Calling anyone who knows about electronics!
I'm really angry with myself for not being able figure this out, so I really, really hope someone can walk me through how to set this up... I recently bought a PID digital controller, Solid State Relay and RTD sensor in the hopes of making my own Sous Vide bath, by hooking it up to a rice cooker. I have the model CD101 here, http://www.sure-electronics.net/measure,tools/TE-MT007_Ver1.0_EN.pdf but I've no idea how to get the thing up and running! I'd really really really appreciate it if someone could help me out!
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Beagle
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics!
2011/02/16 09:00:44
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James - I have looked at the manual you linked to, but there's a lot there that I don't know what you're trying to use for this application or which functions you don't need. Nor do I know anything about your rice cooker or how you're trying to interface to it.
can you give us more details on how you're trying to use this controller with the rice cooker and what functions of the controller you need to use with it?
honestly, I love to design and build systems but there are some things that are just not worth my time to design when I could buy something that's already designed and built. I'm not being judgmental here, but why did you choose to try to piece together this controller with a rice cooker instead of buying a Sous Vide already designed, built and with a warranty or return policy?
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jamescollins
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics!
2011/02/16 09:09:48
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Thanks for the response, Beagle - why did i bother? The cheapest commercially available sous vide bath goes for around $500 - this system will owe me about $50. All I need is a way of regulating the temperature of the water in the pot. I know that power goes in to pins 1 + 2 on the PID, and that I connect the RTD sensor to pins 10, 11 + 12. I'm assuming I cut the power chord that powers the rice cooker and connect the end from the wall to the PID, but where does the relay come in? And which pins should I connect the other half of the power chord to, ie. the output of the PID? I know this is a very simple job, it's just a matter of discovering how to plum it all in correctly  Thanks again for any help in advance...
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics!
2011/02/16 09:21:07
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Which item is the thermometer?
I assume it's digital?
Do you just stick that in the pot?
What the heck is a PID? How about the RTD?
The relay part should be simple... it's an electronically controlled switch.... the temperature sensor and relay controller are the items that excite my curiosity.
Is the rice cooker using a simple resistive heat element? If so, you may need to figure out all sorts of issues... such as basic inefficiency and time lapse before results are seen.
In other words... does the relay switch in anticipation of target temp and allow a few minutes of transfer... or can you count on a near immediate change which will work if the relay switches when the temp probe sense a deviation.
When we did color photography development we used 2 stream of water, hot and cold, because the heat transfer was very quick and responsive when we detected a change and need for adjustment. In that scenario the results of using a heat element was too sluggish and provided inconsistent results. Switching water valves open and closed provided much more consistency.
I wonder if the manufactured appliances have extra programming to spot trends in cooling and heating and proactively switch the heating elements in anticipation of the sluggish nature of their response.
Interesting stuff.
It almost seems like double boiling has been reinvented.
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics!
2011/02/16 09:32:34
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James, this might be a really dumb question, but I'll ask it any way.
Just exactly how much money are you saving by building something that you don't know how to build, when you could buy one assembled and ready to go?
seems to me it would be cheaper in the long run, and probably safer to buy one. Once you build it, it looks like you will have to program it or at the very least set it up properly so it cooks the rice properly...which if I understand correctly, is kind of an art in itself, to get it cooked just right.
We have a small rice cooker that my wife loves. She used to cook rice in a pot on the stove and things would not go right all the time. With this new gizmo, the rice comes out cooked perfectly every time. This cooker was no where's near $500 but it's also not for commercial use. Perhaps yours is.
just thinking out loud here....
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jamescollins
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics!
2011/02/16 09:38:54
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Sorry Mike, you've gone way over my head! Here is a link to a vid of another guy who has got it up and running - they're pretty annoying dudes, but maybe this will explain what I'm trying to do better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPL5UJeXB6Y A PID is just a digital temperature controller, and the RTD sensor is just the sensor that would go in the pot to give a temperature reading to the PID...
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Beagle
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics!
2011/02/16 09:39:02
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jamescollins
Thanks for the response, Beagle - why did i bother? The cheapest commercially available sous vide bath goes for around $500 - this system will owe me about $50.
All I need is a way of regulating the temperature of the water in the pot. I know that power goes in to pins 1 + 2 on the PID, and that I connect the RTD sensor to pins 10, 11 + 12. I'm assuming I cut the power chord that powers the rice cooker and connect the end from the wall to the PID, but where does the relay come in? And which pins should I connect the other half of the power chord to, ie. the output of the PID?
I know this is a very simple job, it's just a matter of discovering how to plum it all in correctly
Thanks again for any help in advance...
does the rice cooker you are working on have any controls on it, or is it just plug it in, put the rice and water in and let it do its work until a parciluar time frame and then you turn it off? this is important because if there are controls already on the cooker then you will need to find a way to integrate them with the PID. if there aren't controlls on the cooker then I'm not sure how it "sets" the temperature to begin with - maybe only by applying and removing power like you said, but we have to know that first. - like mike is asking - is this a simple resistive heat element that applies temperature to the rice cooker. also - we probably need to know what wattage the resistive heat element dissipates. Mike - PID = proportional–integral–derivative controller ( PID controller) RTD = Resistance Temperature Detector (thermocouple)
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jamescollins
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics!
2011/02/16 09:44:07
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Guitarhacker, I'm not using it to cook rice - if you can bare to listen to the guys in the video above, you'll get an idea of what sous vide cooking is. And it is worth every bit of effort - cooks meat to absolute perfection every single time. The technique has been used by gourmet chefs for years (esp. Heston Blumenthal) and has recently taken off in home cooking too...try it, I can guarantee that you never would have tasted meat like it! I've cooked a few pieces of meat just manually regulating the temperature, and very quickly decided it would be worth getting an automatically regulated system. A decent set up will set you back $1000 though, (the $500 option only allows for cooking small pieces of meat) so most people are doing what I'm trying to get going here.
post edited by jamescollins - 2011/02/16 09:46:53
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jamescollins
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics!
2011/02/16 09:48:41
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Mike, I've decided I'm going to use my wife's slow cooker instead - it's bigger! It's made by Ronson, but i can't find a manual online to give you any details on the heating element. It has OFF-LOW-HIGH-KEEP WARM settings on the front panel if that's any help?
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics!
2011/02/16 09:50:35
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jamescollins
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics!
2011/02/16 09:57:14
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This makes it seem simple: Yes - it is simple! I just need to find out what to plug where!!
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Karyn
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics!
2011/02/16 10:03:56
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James, can we assume your rice cooker is basic, ie without an electronic controler?
If it has a thermostat you'll need to set that to max so that it doesn't over ride the PID.
Using the assumption above, the simply way would be to extend the wires from the rice cooker on/off switch and connect to the NO (Normally Open) terminals of your relay. If the relay output in the PID is man enough (check the contact rating) then you can use this direct without the external unit you bought.
It just occured to me that you didn't state the specific model of CD101 you have. The choices of input and output types listed are exclusive. You did get the right one didn't you?
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics!
2011/02/16 10:04:49
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It seems like you bought a complex controller. Figure 3.2 shows you everything you need to know. There's just lot's of extra stuff that doesn't apply to you. It seems like there must be a more ideal item to use... but in any case. I assume you are on 220v 50Hz so you hook up a power cord to 1/2 as shown. You'll probably use the hot lead for your cooker's wall plug and connect it to 4 or 5.... it seems like this controller can control two things... which is excessive and confusiong for your application. Your temp sensor goes in to some combo of 10,11,12.... again a bit confusing because the input has 4 different functions. I'm just throwing out some ideas to get a discussion going... don't do anything I said without confirmation... I don't want you killing yourself or burning down the neighborhood. I think you should find a good DIY tutorial and follow it exactly... rather than adapt this highly flexible, full featured controller you bought to this task. I also think you need to use the simplest cooker you can... because if the cooker has any digitally control in it... switching the power on and off outside it may cause damage to the on board controls. best regards, mike
post edited by mike_mccue - 2011/02/16 10:06:00
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Karyn
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics!
2011/02/16 10:06:54
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Mike, the inputs and outputs are not multi-function. There are different models of that PID and the one manual reffers to all of them.
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jamescollins
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics!
2011/02/16 10:09:22
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OK, how about this... I cut the power chord to the slow cooker. Connect the power chord from the wall to pins 1 + 2 on the PID (not whilst plugged in  ) Run wire from pins 5 + 6 to the input of my solid state relay. Connect the 2nd half of the cut power chord to the output of the relay, which plugs into the slow cooker. Connect the RTD sensor to pins 10, 11 + 12. I'm not sure about the relay bit - on the input side of it, we can read the following: the inputs are labelled as 3 and 4, negative and positive respectively. 3-32V DC. The outputs of the relay are labelled 1 and 2, and instead of signs indicating polarity, just this sign: ~ and the output is 24-240C AC 50/60Hz, 20A. Will it work if i do the above? Will I die? Am i right about the relay?
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jamescollins
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics!
2011/02/16 10:14:25
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Karyn, yes, I have the right model I wish I could have found a simpler controller, but...I didn't! We're almost there - if you don't hear from me, I've killed myself...
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Beagle
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics!
2011/02/16 10:14:39
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doing that how do you get the slow cooker to use the HIGH setting each time? is it an electronic switch for the heat settings or is it a rotary switch? if it's a rotary switch that might work, if it's electronic it won't unless it automatically sets itself to HIGH when you plug it in - which I seriously doubt it will do that - most default to OFF when first plugged in.
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jamescollins
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics!
2011/02/16 10:17:04
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And Karyn yes, I have OFF-LOW-HIGH-KEEP WARM settings on the front panel of the slow cooker. I'll leave it on HIGH when it's going...
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jamescollins
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics!
2011/02/16 10:18:19
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is it an electronic switch for the heat settings or is it a rotary switch? Yep, it's a rotary!
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics!
2011/02/16 10:28:20
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Karyn
Mike, the inputs and outputs are not multi-function. There are different models of that PID and the one manual reffers to all of them.
OK, I meant as a system it is multi functional... and after a re-read I get the impression the PID is multifunctional... but of course can be completely incorrect about this. I assume in this instance we are speaking of hooking a "RTD" to the TC input at 11/12? Where does it specify the specific controller models within the "CD" series? Just curious. best, mike
post edited by mike_mccue - 2011/02/16 10:31:40
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jamescollins
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics!
2011/02/16 10:29:59
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Thanks so much for helping everyone - I'm off to bed now, but if someone can have a look at post 15 and say if I've got it right, that'd be great.
When i get it running I'll post some pics of the most succulent pieces of meat you've ever seen. I plan on getting a heating element one day in place of the slow cooker, so i can fill up the bath and put a whole pig in there. Now we're talking! And the good thing is, my wife won't waste so much water having baths, because I doubt she'd be so keen once she sees a pig in there.
Just so many positives...
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Karyn
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics!
2011/02/16 11:14:15
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mike_mccue
Karyn
Mike, the inputs and outputs are not multi-function. There are different models of that PID and the one manual reffers to all of them.
OK, I meant as a system it is multi functional... and after a re-read I get the impression the PID is multifunctional... but of course can be completely incorrect about this.
I assume in this instance we are speaking of hooking a "RTD" to the TC input at 11/12?
Where does it specify the specific controller models within the "CD" series?
Just curious.
best,
mike
Page 4 of the manual... 
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Karyn
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics!
2011/02/16 11:16:58
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jamescollins
And the good thing is, my wife won't waste so much water having baths, because I doubt she'd be so keen once she sees a pig in there.
Just so many positives...
She's never seen you in the bath??? 
Mekashi Futo. Get 10% off all Waves plugins.Current DAW. i7-950, Gigabyte EX58-UD5, 12Gb RAM, 1Tb SSD, 2x2Tb HDD, nVidia GTX 260, Antec 1000W psu, Win7 64bit, Studio 192, Digimax FS, KRK RP8G2, Sonar Platinum
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Karyn
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics!
2011/02/16 11:30:15
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jamescollins
OK, how about this...
I cut the power chord to the slow cooker.
Connect the power chord from the wall to pins 1 + 2 on the PID (not whilst plugged in )
Run wire from pins 5 + 6 to the input of my solid state relay.
Connect the 2nd half of the cut power chord to the output of the relay, which plugs into the slow cooker.
Connect the RTD sensor to pins 10, 11 + 12.
I'm not sure about the relay bit - on the input side of it, we can read the following: the inputs are labelled as 3 and 4, negative and positive respectively. 3-32V DC. The outputs of the relay are labelled 1 and 2, and instead of signs indicating polarity, just this sign: ~ and the output is 24-240C AC 50/60Hz, 20A.
Will it work if i do the above? Will I die? Am i right about the relay?
I really don't wish to seem rude or start a flame war or anything like goes on upstairs, but if you think that would work then you really should be asking a friend to do this for you.... Mains electrikery kills very easily. Electric heating elements draw a lot of current and easily start fires in badly assembled joints. Some of the questions you're asking are worrying me... I will post you a simple to follow, complete wiring diagram. But I need to know presicely which model of CD101 you have and also the details of the "electronic relay" you're using.
Mekashi Futo. Get 10% off all Waves plugins.Current DAW. i7-950, Gigabyte EX58-UD5, 12Gb RAM, 1Tb SSD, 2x2Tb HDD, nVidia GTX 260, Antec 1000W psu, Win7 64bit, Studio 192, Digimax FS, KRK RP8G2, Sonar Platinum
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics!
2011/02/16 11:40:46
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Karyn
mike_mccue
Karyn
Mike, the inputs and outputs are not multi-function. There are different models of that PID and the one manual reffers to all of them.
OK, I meant as a system it is multi functional... and after a re-read I get the impression the PID is multifunctional... but of course can be completely incorrect about this.
I assume in this instance we are speaking of hooking a "RTD" to the TC input at 11/12?
Where does it specify the specific controller models within the "CD" series?
Just curious.
best,
mike
Page 4 of the manual...
Edit to add: OK now I see that this illustration is of a label... I had assumed it was another illustration of a connection terminal strip... big mistake!!! I have seen that figure as well as fig 3.2 and my interpretation continues to be that the CD101 (which I am assuming is the PID) is capable of being different things depending on which hookup you connect to.
I'm not trying to argue... simply pointing out that having read the entire pdf... the only suggestion that I see that the manual describes different devices is the phrase "CD series" and then it goes on to describe the CD101. That's how I came to make the non committal statements copy/pasted below: "I assume you are on 220v 50Hz so you hook up a power cord to 1/2 as shown.
You'll probably use the hot lead for your cooker's wall plug and connect it to 4 or 5.... [I still don't know which you would choose... it depends on what type of choices you get with the controller's HID input tabs] it seems like this controller can control two things... which is excessive and confusiong for your application.
Your temp sensor goes in to some combo of 10,11,12.... [11 and 12] again a bit confusing because the input has 4 different functions." In any circumstance I totally agree with your estimation that James is going to blow himself up if he proceeds without further consideration. James... don't proceed until you have finished learning what to do in this specific circumstance!!! Please... we just want you to be safe. all the best, mike
post edited by mike_mccue - 2011/02/16 11:44:42
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics!
2011/02/16 11:52:28
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The further I read the more this started to look like a page from a case-study of insurance agents to be.
If it's that hard, it's surely illegal to do by yourself and takes all responsibility off the insurance company in case of electricution or fire.
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Bub 
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics!
2011/02/16 12:03:11
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James, do you have all the pieces to make this? There's some specialty items in that list.
You will get killed if you don't wire a triac properly.
A triac is a line voltage switch. It also show's one of the lugs going to an SSR (Solid State Relay).
I worked on copiers for 20+ years and this looks familiar to me. In the old days you had your line voltage coming in to the triac, then out to the SSR that was controlled by a -12vdc logic command from the DC controller board. The circuit's function was to turn the fusing unit heating lamps on and off. Those were usually 900 ~ 1500 watts. It looks like this circuit is basically turning a heating element on and off which would be the same difference as the lamps. It also looks like the SSR may be built in to the triac? You see the triac is rated at 100A ... they aren't anything to fool with if you don't know exactly what you're doing.
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Karyn
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics!
2011/02/16 12:19:59
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Mike, He's gone to bed now so it's safe to talk without risk of him blowing himself up..  That model number should read : CD101 D401-M*NNN or a small variation. The NNN at the end is the specified alarms outputs (I chose none) and communications (again, none) M specifies a relay output stage, as oppose a triac output or voltage pulse. D is the operation mode 401 is the input type and range (from the tables in chapter 8) These are all hardware options, you buy the unit that has the inputs and output you need. It is not a preferences menu setting. The actual processor inside is the same for all units, hence just the one manual. In simple terms, it is a very fancy, highly accurate thermostat. In technical terms, it is a PID controller that not only measures the temperature, but measures how fast the temp rises and falls with power to the heating element on/off and calculates the optimum on/off time to maintain the temp within specified limits. (and optionally triggers alarms if temp goes outside of that range). To be honest it is a bit overkill for the application at hand, but it will do the job well if we can get him to wire it up right... Still need the data to that "solid state relay" he mentioned...
Mekashi Futo. Get 10% off all Waves plugins.Current DAW. i7-950, Gigabyte EX58-UD5, 12Gb RAM, 1Tb SSD, 2x2Tb HDD, nVidia GTX 260, Antec 1000W psu, Win7 64bit, Studio 192, Digimax FS, KRK RP8G2, Sonar Platinum
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics!
2011/02/16 12:26:16
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I now see how this works. Interesting concept.
IF I was to do this I would build a separate electrical box.... such as a 4x4 box with one 120v outlet on it. A cord comes out and plugs into the wall.... the line side (hot) wire runs to and through the controller relay or SSR. Be sure that SSR is rated for the current the crock pot will be drawing on high. Everything metal gets grounded properly.
That way you don't have to cut the cord on the slow cooker. My wife has a slow cooker and uses it all the time so she would not appreciate me altering it in that way. But having the stand alone controller, she might go for that.
I'm not yet convinced that it is a better way to cook. The steak those guys cooked looked pretty similar to me..... and the one was 8 minutes on the grill..... they did not say how long the gizmo took.
When I am cooking a steak, I don't know about you, but half the fun to me is standing at the grill, drinking a Sam Adams and smelling and hearing that steak cook.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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Karyn
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Re:Calling anyone who knows about electronics!
2011/02/16 12:32:38
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I agree Herb, a seperate box for the electronics will be required.
But first we need the data, or at least a model number, for his SSR.
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