kson
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Change of focus...
This is more of a curiosity question than anything. It is not intended to Sonar bash, as I've been a Sonar user for years. I just have to wonder if they've lost their direction. I see lot of new tools that have come out and/or are due to come out, but none seem to be focused on actual songwriting. They have a lot of great editing/mixing tools added to the collection but I find myself gravitating toward the songwriting focus of Cubase and Studio One, especially as of late. Am I incorrect in this assumption? I'd be interested in hearing all points, especially from the Cakewalk staff. Thanks, RKSon
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eph221
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Re: Change of focus...
2016/04/30 15:05:52
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Ya, why do the soundtracks to all their instructional videos sound like vd movies from the 60's and 70's?! :D:D
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Brando
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Re: Change of focus...
2016/04/30 19:01:33
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kson This is more of a curiosity question than anything. It is not intended to Sonar bash, as I've been a Sonar user for years. I just have to wonder if they've lost their direction. I see lot of new tools that have come out and/or are due to come out, but none seem to be focused on actual songwriting. They have a lot of great editing/mixing tools added to the collection but I find myself gravitating toward the songwriting focus of Cubase and Studio One, especially as of late. Am I incorrect in this assumption? I'd be interested in hearing all points, especially from the Cakewalk staff. Thanks, RKSon
I think it's not a "lost vision" but a shift in vision. Guitar-centric versus midi-centric (not to bash, judge or complain). I complained too - about a lack of focus on things like notation view, and implementation of user requests for things like an arranger view/track and tempo view improvements. But I've looked at what the competition offers and realized I could put up with Sonar's short-comings because of all of its strengths. Still hoping Cakewalk eventually gets to the improvements I am hoping for, but in the meanwhile, will make use of whatever else I need to augment SPlat and fill the holes as needed. Haven't (yet) found anything that tips my balance away from SONAR but I think the shift in focus is based on where the majority of Sonar's users want it to go. C'est la vie.
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dannyjmusic
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Re: Change of focus...
2016/04/30 21:28:11
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I got started on the Atari based smpte track, which was really great, because you could build a song section, then copy the song section and add other parts to it, then string all the sections together. It made it where you could construct a song very quickly I still miss that way of building a song
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icontakt
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Re: Change of focus...
2016/04/30 21:37:59
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There will be some folks who will disagree with you, but I agree. Although I don't particularly need these features, I'll be happy if the next set of future updates includes arranger tracks, staff view improvements, etc. because these help songwriting and have been requested by many. Drum map improvements, auto clip-merge MIDI recording would be nice, too (I need these). Also, things that help both songwriters and non-songwriters and both new and seasoned users would be nice as well. Even a very simple feature like nested folders would be great news to many.
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Anderton
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Re: Change of focus...
2016/04/30 23:49:05
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dannyjmusic I got started on the Atari based smpte track, which was really great, because you could build a song section, then copy the song section and add other parts to it, then string all the sections together. It made it where you could construct a song very quickly I still miss that way of building a song
You might find this tip from week 76 of "Friday's Tip of the Week" helpful.
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dannyjmusic
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Re: Change of focus...
2016/05/01 08:16:18
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Thanks for that Craig...seems like it would work... I used the Atari for years , even when programs with much more funtionality appeared...I used it until it just crapped out only because of this feature...and it used a floppy dics! I never found another program that utilized this type of song mode structure. It does seem like it wouldn't be that hard to make a song mode in Sonar, that would allow you to create sections, name them, go to song mode, and just drag the sections into the list. In this case you're basically just telling Sonar to "go to " this time in the timeline, "play to" another time in the timeline, and select the particular tracks of that section you want played in that section...such as Intro 1 would be not only be a section in the timeline, but also the tracks you previously selected. You might also have intro 2, which is the same time section, but you could highlight a different set of tracks to be played in that section. This way, you could use Intro 2 after the 1st Chorus, but it could build by adding more instruments, making the arrangement more interesting. It's so easy to just drag a name around in song mode without having to deal with a large group of tracks moving around your track view. The other thing is, when scoring to picture, a section isn't always hitting on a bar...it might be just ticks, or portions of a measure. Doesn't seem like it would be that hard to program. Which brings it around to Sonar becoming more "video friendly", where you could at least import an mp4, and be able to move it around on it's track...but that's another post LOL Again thanks for the tip Craig...I'll give it a try.
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ramscapri
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Re: Change of focus...
2016/05/01 08:42:48
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Though I am a dedicated lover & user of Sonar and appreciate all the great new features and also the way Sonar is growing, the development & update model, etc., I would be inclined to agree with the intent of the original post and what it means. I would put it this way... rather than "change of focus", what is likely required is a "partial diversion of focus to songwriting areas". I myself being more of a MIDI and soft synth composer than a direct audio recordist (other than vocals of course), I can relate well to what this thread was started for. I sure think its time for more arrangement tools, better and advanced scales/chords/composition tools and the likes. Having said all above, I would still want focus to be retained in audio engineering, editing and core interface improvements as that's where Sonar is pretty strong and I guess scores better than most other DAWs. Lets face it though...it can't be expected overnight. I guess it will have to be a more than near-term laid out plan for development if the bakers go for it. I just hope they do go for it... or have they already ?
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dannyjmusic
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Re: Change of focus...
2016/05/01 09:18:20
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☄ Helpfulby jbow 2016/05/01 12:51:31
yea...my old Atari program couldn't even record audio! Sonar today is light years better , but that simple little song mode could be added to what already exists, along with a small amount of video attention. That would make a HUGH addition to an already great program....just my 2 cents
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Anderton
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Re: Change of focus...
2016/05/01 11:46:45
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I talked with Noel some time ago about adding a new type of "Play Now" marker. I saw this as more of a live performance feature that would also work for arranging. If you selected a marker, SONAR would play starting from that marker up to the next marker. If no new marker was selected during that time, SONAR would loop the section. If you selected a different marker during that time, SONAR would jump to it after playing through the section. For arranging, you could make a list of the markers and SONAR would play through them sequentially. He liked the idea, but thought it would not be possible for these transitions to occur gaplessly. However I think there may be a way to do something like this within SONAR's existing framework...I'll try it out and if it works, I'll write it up as next week's tip.
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kson
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Re: Change of focus...
2016/05/01 11:56:42
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ramscapri Though I am a dedicated lover & user of Sonar and appreciate all the great new features and also the way Sonar is growing, the development & update model, etc., I would be inclined to agree with the intent of the original post and what it means. I would put it this way... rather than "change of focus", what is likely required is a "partial diversion of focus to songwriting areas". I myself being more of a MIDI and soft synth composer than a direct audio recordist (other than vocals of course), I can relate well to what this thread was started for. I sure think its time for more arrangement tools, better and advanced scales/chords/composition tools and the likes. Having said all above, I would still want focus to be retained in audio engineering, editing and core interface improvements as that's where Sonar is pretty strong and I guess scores better than most other DAWs. Lets face it though...it can't be expected overnight. I guess it will have to be a more than near-term laid out plan for development if the bakers go for it. I just hope they do go for it... or have they already ? 
Indeed. After basically upgrading every year for years, I've decided not to for the time being to see "where they are going with this". I currently have enough editing tools and since I don't see any songwriting tools on the horizon, I'll will have to be happy with the current version I own and continue using multiple DAWs based on need. I hope they return to the songwriter mentality they once had so I may resume my upgrade path. I also hope the Sonar staff can offer their POV or some statement of fact.
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Anderton
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Re: Change of focus...
2016/05/01 12:04:34
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It would probably be helpful if someone presented a specific list of desired functionality for songwriting. So far all I keep seeing mentioned is an arranger track a la Cubase, and a more sophisticated staff view. Also break these down into audio functions and MIDI functions. The other sense I get it most people are talking specifically about MIDI, but I could be wrong... I wonder if it's possible to add an entry in the utilities menu to call up rhymezone.com...that would definitely help with my songwriting.
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dannyjmusic
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Re: Change of focus...
2016/05/01 13:13:31
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ramscapri
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Re: Change of focus...
2016/05/01 13:28:06
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Thanks Craig. Looking forward to your ideas on song arrangement using markers. I know songwriting is about everything in a song including lyrics. But I am particularly referring to features and tools for the music composition part of it. Yes, most of music composition is art and imagination, and more barrier free as it is language independent. But some technical tools could help speed up the creative process. As an example, the chord pads in Cubase is something that looks a useful tool for song composition. Sure a Sonar user may not want an exact replica copy of it, as he or she trusts the bakers to turn the idea into a much more advanced feature, more intuitive and futuristic...
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bz2838
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Re: Change of focus...
2016/05/01 14:35:13
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A chord track like the one in Cubase is one of the best songwriting tools out there, it would be a great addition to Splat!
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kson
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Re: Change of focus...
2016/05/01 14:52:43
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Anderton It would probably be helpful if someone presented a specific list of desired functionality for songwriting. So far all I keep seeing mentioned is an arranger track a la Cubase, and a more sophisticated staff view. Also break these down into audio functions and MIDI functions. The other sense I get it most people are talking specifically about MIDI, but I could be wrong... I wonder if it's possible to add an entry in the utilities menu to call up rhymezone.com...that would definitely help with my songwriting.
Craig, I think I had quite a list offered up to the Cakewalk folks some time ago. I answered every poll received and made my suggestions through the proper channels. From this I believe I've seen perhaps one implementation from a while back. Specifically, I didn't want to turn this in to a feature request thread, as there are a few of those already. Many folks feel the same way as I've read through the requests; are they just ignoring the main theme of songwriting? I've got to believe they've seen the direction of Cubase/Studio One and thought some of the features were worthy.
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Morvejones
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Re: Change of focus...
2016/05/01 14:57:41
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Arranger track would be a great addition, also Drum map improvements, i'd love a piano roll like fl studio i can work so much faster on theirs
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dannyjmusic
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Re: Change of focus...
2016/05/01 15:05:45
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Thanks Craig...A while back I wondered it you could use the Matrix view for an arrangement type thing, but didn't really have time to work on it long enough to figure anything out I guess you could bounce your song parts to audio and drag them into the matrix view... The smpte track program being just midi didnt' have all the work to do when jumping to a different section...even so if you had a really complex song with a lot going on right at the place in the music where it was changing sections, it occasionally did "chug" a bit ...although it was a 128k computer with 1 meg of ram LOL
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Anderton
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Re: Change of focus...
2016/05/01 15:11:33
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☄ Helpfulby kson 2016/05/03 23:19:34
kson Craig, I think I had quite a list offered up to the Cakewalk folks some time ago. I answered every poll received and made my suggestions through the proper channels. From this I believe I've seen perhaps one implementation from a while back. Specifically, I didn't want to turn this in to a feature request thread, as there are a few of those already. Many folks feel the same way as I've read through the requests; are they just ignoring the main theme of songwriting? I've got to believe they've seen the direction of Cubase/Studio One and thought some of the features were worthy.
I'm not asking on behalf of Cakewalk, nor have I seen any list that was presented to them. I want to know for my own purposes because with more specificity, I could possibly a) come with alternative ways to accomplish the same goal, and/or b) review products for eZine that do what people want. But as long as all I have to go is that Cubase and Studio One have "worthy features," I'm flying blind. As I said, the only specifics I know about are a chord track and improved staff view and IIRC, Studio One doesn't even have a staff view. For example, a company named 1manband makes an MFX Harmony Generator which they describe as follows: "MFX Harmony is a MIDI effect/plugin that can be used in any Cakewalk (Sonar, Music Creator) version that supports MIDI effects. It adds auto-harmony and extra voices to a single tone melody. The harmony follows chords that are placed in text events in the track." That may answer the request for more songwriting tools, but I don't know if I don't know the exact nature of the request. Similarly, I've created a Chord Library for my own use that I use all the time for songwriting, including mapping chords to a MIDI keyboard so I can experiment with playing different chord progressions. Whenever I demo this at my "Recording on the Fast Track" seminars, the audience response is always very favorable. I could certainly describe how I did this in an eZine article, but I'm not going to if it's not of interest to anyone.
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ramscapri
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Re: Change of focus...
2016/05/01 15:26:14
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Anderton Similarly, I've created a Chord Library for my own use that I use all the time for songwriting, including mapping chords to a MIDI keyboard so I can experiment with playing different chord progressions. Whenever I demo this at my "Recording on the Fast Track" seminars, the audience response is always very favorable. I could certainly describe how I did this in an eZine article, but I'm not going to if it's not of interest to anyone.
That sounds very interesting Craig. I would definitely be interested to know and read through that in the next ezine or whenever you can come up with those illustrations. Your inputs and tips are very valuable to say the least. Thanks. Your approach to being able to create unique and special purpose tools within Sonar with its available resources is commendable indeed. Its just that users like me may not be able to do that intuitively, hence look for built-in direct tools to serve the purposes.
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dannyjmusic
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Re: Change of focus...
2016/05/01 19:52:58
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Hey Craig...one more thing...I would love to have more funtionality in using video...being able to import mp4 files, which are standard these days...Sonar doesn't seem to like them...and being able to slide them back and forth on the timeline like audio, and maybe even to split them into pieces. It would be really helpful when writing to video. Video is so big these days...a lot of people are wanting to add music to video for YouTube, so i think it would be well received. I've been fighting scoring to video for 10-15 years and the video functionality hasn't changed much at all. Thanks again!
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Kylotan
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Re: Change of focus...
2016/05/02 06:02:15
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☄ Helpfulby kson 2016/05/03 23:32:04
I can't guess what the developers actually intend but my experience is definitely that in the last few years Sonar has focused on being a digital mix console for the PC rather than a general purpose MIDI and audio editing tool. Almost all the significant features and additions have been aimed at people who track large blocks of pre-written audio and then want to tweak and edit it. The ProChannel, Drum Replacer, VocalSync, Mix Recall, Patch Points/Aux Tracks, Style Dials, tons of effects chains and templates, and more. What did we get for songwriters and arrangements? Onscreen Virtual Controller?, ...er.... some sample and loop packs... er... Pattern Tool perhaps... that's about it. But perhaps worse is how this forum sees a constant churn of "how do I perform basic task <X> that is simple in <other DAW Y>", such as moving or copying a section of the song to somewhere else, or even just being able to delete a section of the song reliably. It comes up time after time and there doesn't seem to be any movement towards even fixing this basic functionality, never mind adding advanced features that songwriters would benefit from. So, I'd say you can draw your own conclusions. Anderton It would probably be helpful if someone presented a specific list of desired functionality for songwriting. So far all I keep seeing mentioned is an arranger track a la Cubase, and a more sophisticated staff view. Also break these down into audio functions and MIDI functions. The other sense I get it most people are talking specifically about MIDI, but I could be wrong...
Cakewalk need to just start acting on some of the things that have been said over the last few years while they've been supplying mix engineers with new toys monthly. I don't think when we say 'songwriting tools' we mean low-level stuff like harmony generators or rhyming dictionaries or whatever. Personally, I just mean 'tools that let me use Sonar during songwriting', instead of the status quo where Sonar punishes you for changing a song once you've started recording it. Yes, a proper arranger track like Cubase or Studio One would be great, and especially the S1 scratch pads, but even just something like the old Cubase Play Order system would be a step up, or just a more versatile loop system (allowing the equivalent of D.S. Al Coda and the like). Anything to work in a non-linear way, to let me see which sections go where, to let me quickly and easily double or halve the length of a section, to see how something is going to flow before committing to keeping that structure. But even if they never did any of this, if they just fixed the editing so it was easy and reliable to quickly drag and drop sections around and delete from the middle of a track, lots of us would just use it that way. But even that is currently a real hassle. And don't get me started on how hostile Take Lanes are to even the simplest of attempts to move sections within a song. If I have the audacity to move sections around where there are existing take lanes, boom, I get even more take lanes. Sometimes it'll spread what used to be 3 clips in one take lane out into 3 separate take lanes, just to be sure. It's a complete productivity disaster. People on here say "always work with the Take Lanes open and specifically record into a lane", so I do, and it gets progressively more and more unwieldy as Sonar creates more lanes without us asking for them, and they've steadfastly refused to add the old 'rebuild layers' that's been gone for seven years because f*ck songwriters who want to move things after they're recorded, right? Should have just written the song beforehand and recorded it into Sonar in full takes (because that's the only way that the comping feature acts in anything resembling a sane manner). Cakewalk either need to address these flaws, or add new functionality that sidesteps them and provides a different workflow for songwriters.
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tenfoot
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Re: Change of focus...
2016/05/02 07:18:02
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On the the hand, so many perceived funcionality 'issues' in Sonar could so easily be avoided if people actually read the manual.
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icontakt
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Re: Change of focus...
2016/05/02 07:47:13
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Top 3 areas that need fixes and enhancements (which will make songwriting much easier): 1. Take lanes 2. PRV Controller lanes 3. Automation lanes For details, please visit the Feedback Loop forum section.
Tak T. Primary Laptop: Core i7-4710MQ CPU, 16GB RAM, 7200RPM HDD, Windows 7 Home Premium OS (Japanese) x64 SP1Secondary Laptop: Core2 Duo CPU, 8GB RAM, 7200RPM HDD, Windows 7 Professional OS (Japanese) x64 SP1Audio Interface: iD14 (ASIO)Keyboard Controller/MIDI Interface: A-800PRODAW: SONAR Platinum x64 (latest update installed)
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Anderton
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Re: Change of focus...
2016/05/02 10:08:44
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The OP was not talking about fixes to existing features, but about new tools for songwriting ("I see lot of new tools that have come out and/or are due to come out, but none seem to be focused on actual songwriting"). I was asking about the nature of these tools and what they would do. It would be helpful if people offered some specific examples because then something specific could be proposed to Cakewalk. Diverting the thread to issues that already exist and are known will not help define new tools for songwriting. I should add that in addition to a chord track, a few people have picked up on my request for a "drum machine mode" for MIDI. That would be very useful for creating beats as an alternative to the step sequencer.
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icontakt
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Re: Change of focus...
2016/05/02 10:29:37
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Maybe the OP should clarify what "songwriting" means and if what's needed for his songwriting is only new "tools." For example, this request has been supported by 43 people so far and it definitely helps songwriting. But it's not a tool. It's a feature. And one Baker even said in some other thread that they often consider implementing it. I find it difficult to understand why Add Track was prioritized over it.
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Kylotan
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Re: Change of focus...
2016/05/02 10:33:31
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Anderton The OP was not talking about fixes to existing features, but about new tools for songwriting ("I see lot of new tools that have come out and/or are due to come out, but none seem to be focused on actual songwriting").
I read it differently; the OP doesn't seem to be asking for 'tools for songwriting', but has noted their absence and is taking it as an implicit admission from Cakewalk that performing songwriting within Sonar is obviously low on their list of priorities. I think the failure to fix basic functionality that is necessary for songwriting is another large piece of evidence that supports this viewpoint.
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Kylotan
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Re: Change of focus...
2016/05/02 10:35:36
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tenfoot On the the hand, so many perceived funcionality 'issues' in Sonar could so easily be avoided if people actually read the manual. No, mostly it's a mixture of bugs and an 'intended' workflow that is designed for mix engineers rather than songwriters.
Sonar Platinum (Newburyport) / Win 8.1 64bit / Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 / Absynth / Kontakt / Play / Superior Drummer 2 / ESP LTD guitar / etc Twilight's Embrace - gothic/death metal | Other works - instrumental/soundtracks
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Anderton
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Re: Change of focus...
2016/05/02 11:39:27
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icontaktI find it difficult to understand why Add Track was prioritized over it. I presume it's because the Tempo Extraction, LP EQ, LP MB, Help Module, and TH3 VST Persistence Compatibility were all in development during that time, and Add Track (which has been on their to-do list for a long time based on watching users who were getting started with SONAR) was something relative easy to implement while all those other "difficult" developments were occurring. Anyway it seems I'm not going to get an answer about new "tools," so I'll move on. I was hoping there were more ideas waiting in the wings like chord tracks or whatever. Meanwhile, per the request I'll write up the Chord Library and how I use it in songwriting. I've found it tremendously helpful; several of the songs on my YouTube channel would not have been written without it.
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tenfoot
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Re: Change of focus...
2016/05/02 11:47:21
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Kylotan No, mostly it's a mixture of bugs and an 'intended' workflow that is designed for mix engineers rather than songwriters.
I cannot conceive of separating these two roles: now days many if not most song writers are producer/engineers, and vice versa. That is the beauty of affordable DAW's. I guess Sonar's workflow suits some more than others, but that will be true of any subjective choice.
post edited by tenfoot - 2016/05/02 12:10:16
Bruce. Sonar Platinum 2017-09, Studio One 3.5.3, Win 10 x64, Quad core i7, RME Fireface, Behringer X32 Producer, Behringer X32 Rack, Presonus Faderport, Lemure Software Controller (Android), Enttec DMXIS VST lighting controller, Xtempo POK.
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