guitardog247
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Re:Chorus vs. Verse
2010/08/17 23:13:24
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Positively 4th street - Bob Dylan is AAAA, just verse, after verse.... You got a lot of nerve, to say you are my friend........ That Squeeze song has a bridge at like 1:30.
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Guitar Man
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Re:Chorus vs. Verse
2010/08/17 23:16:15
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Do not place rules with music. Hence forth the common misconception of timing issue's by others where music goes when being listened to by musicians. They perceive the ideal to be somewhat of a thing that is written in stone, while the most important person of all who listens to the music enjoys hearing it. The bottom line is, it doesn't matter what you do with your music, there are always going to be critics. Make your own rules. That is how new music is born. Not by robotic ideals and formula's. Cheers!
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guitardog247
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Re:Chorus vs. Verse
2010/08/17 23:25:04
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Guitar Man Do not place rules with music. Hence forth the common misconception of timing issue's by others where music goes when being listened to by musicians. They perceive the ideal to be somewhat of a thing that is written in stone, while the most important person of all who listens to the music enjoys hearing it. The bottom line is, it doesn't matter what you do with your music, there are always going to be critics. Make your own rules. That is how new music is born. Not by robotic ideals and formula's. Cheers! With all due respect Guitar Man, I don't think anyone is talking about rules. Song structure is "theory" not "rules". It's just a way of explaining what naturally comes out of us...... as the song writes itself. Nobody actually sits down, and says: "I'm going to write a song with this structure, and only do this or that......" People write and let if flow, and hopefully as you are saying, take chances once in a while! It just so happens there is a way of explaining it in music theory terms.
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hairyjamie
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Re:Chorus vs. Verse
2010/08/18 03:35:12
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guitardog247 With all due respect Guitar Man, I don't think anyone is talking about rules. Song structure is "theory" not "rules". It's just a way of explaining what naturally comes out of us...... as the song writes itself. Nobody actually sits down, and says: "I'm going to write a song with this structure, and only do this or that......" People write and let if flow, and hopefully as you are saying, take chances once in a while! It just so happens there is a way of explaining it in music theory terms. Good call dog - I'm slightly more 'classicaly trained' than my buddies that I jam and write songs with, so I usually have some theory in mind when writing. One of my friends insists that all of the best songs and songwriters have just happened without any thought or knowledge of theory and structure. He's always surprised when I can listen to a song and then explain how it actually fits the theory. So even if it wasn't written in a theoretical and planned way, it usually turns out like that because that's what works. Theory explains music it doesn't necessarily control it.
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SongCraft
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Re:Chorus vs. Verse
2010/08/18 04:23:59
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Ditto! Jamie and GuitarDog +1,000,01 for each of you guys. And the drinks are on the house :) *burp*
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Philip
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Re:Chorus vs. Verse
2010/08/18 15:48:24
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Kiosk Project: That is AAAA BAAAA +/-, I'm afraid, (yes, there is a strong bridge/m8 @ 1:17), IIRC. But the song is essentially AAA, a balladic British pop pre-punk invasion or something ... top notch and wonderful. Vocs are a little weak and old-school. SongCraft, I'm sure impressed by your thoughtfulness and pearls with vocs, especially! That the kind of pondering is very inspiring and I look forward to your next fun-bash to be a knock-out! I've always been convinced that uber vocs are the utmost power, love, and soundness of any successful song. Other instruments are great, but your vox ideas are uber sweet to my ears! Guitar Man: Not legalisic rules at all, just pop-pearls to help inspire your/my songs, FWIW. (as per GuitarDog's theories concept, FWIW; I need all the help I can get) Btw: BiaB follows the theory rules in computer generating of songs ... and they sound like wonderful elevator music, to my ears.
post edited by Philip - 2010/08/18 15:54:44
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Dave King
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Re:Chorus vs. Verse
2010/08/18 17:04:11
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A drum roll, tom run, cymbal or paused kick are lead ins for the next section of a musical piece. Independent of the melody. Or you can go over the top and just beat something loud just prior to the change. BGVs are for choruses or maybe later in the song on the verses. Bass patterns need to change with each section of the song. Unless you are Elton John, pianos should be reserved for chorus & bridges. This especially in a guitar song but if you need an intro, Ok there. If you are a piano player and its a piano song, piano is fine everywhere. Guitars coming in on a piano song rarely works unless its a big production piece to emphasis power, distorted guitars allowed. You can place a killer vocal over a mediocre instrument performance and it will work if everything is in tune & in key. A killer instrument track with a mediocre vocal pulls the whole house of cards down. Start the vocal at 10, 15, 20 seconds into the song. Later than this and people generally will flip to the next song. Especially if the guitar part is bad or the keyboard sound is cheesey. Bad reverb is bad. The soul of the song is in a single instrument and the vocal. If the inherent rhythm and feel is not followed, enhanced or fulfilled in production, you're dressing a pig in jewels. The instrument you wrote the song on is not necessarily the best one for the track. The mute button is your friend. Think about tape. Why does it sound so good. Seek the answer and EQ your tracks like tape responds. The more musicians you know, the faster your production will go. Great post! Lots of "food for thought" there. Thanks.
Dave King www.davekingmusic.com SONAR X2 Producer 64-Bit StudioCat PC Windows 7 Home Premium, Service Pack 1 Intel Corel i5 3450 CPU @3.10 GHz RAM 8 GB M-Audio Delta 44 M-Audio MidiSport 2x2
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mgh
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Re:Chorus vs. Verse
2010/08/18 17:11:43
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one advantage of writing metal/extreme with a proggy touch is that i can use or ignore these conventions; so i can do ABABCB or whatever but i can also do ABCDB or whatever...but if you write 'pop' music then there are conventions you need to follow, having standard formats never affected ABBA's ability to write a tune, for example...
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Philip
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Re:Chorus vs. Verse
2010/08/20 11:53:26
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Metal theory is difficult for me to grasp ... as I'm only able to focus on interesting sections when my ears aren't violated (ultra-comp issues primarily) Don't tell me Abba's name is ABBA based on a play of song-structure words?
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No How
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Re:Chorus vs. Verse
2010/08/20 12:12:39
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I don't think anyone has mentioned it (if so forgive my redundancy)...but in the 60s and 70s a lot of songs started with the chorus. Build me up Buttercup She Loves You Take the Last Train to Clarksville ...on and on...oooogles of them. This approach is fairly old fashioned but one that i think has a real charm to it and can be effective if the verse has equal strength. Another approach is to write a song of only hooks (or chorus's) and label the weaker of the two 'verse'. I think a lot of writers think the verse is a place to put the listener to sleep....and many are successful at it. Interesting thread!
s o n g s – Beauty lodged in a bad hotel has no value. Raymond Lull
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Middleman
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Re:Chorus vs. Verse
2010/08/20 13:10:37
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Uh, listened to that link, there is definitely a B in that AAAAA structure.
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No How
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Re:Chorus vs. Verse
2010/08/20 13:31:40
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Middleman Uh, listened to that link, there is definitely a B in that AAAAA structure. Yes there is. @1:15 and again a kind of re-intro-ending or "C" at 2:38 Closest thing i've heard that's AAAAAAAAA is Fleetwood Mac's "DREAMS" has an endless 2 chord change that never resolves (IV V IV V IV V ad infinitum...) and the 'chorus' is just a very slight alteration of melody over the same repeating 2 chords...........i believe edit: now i recall there's a VI in there in a kind of guitar break. my bad.
post edited by No How - 2010/08/20 13:37:28
s o n g s – Beauty lodged in a bad hotel has no value. Raymond Lull
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guitardog247
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Re:Chorus vs. Verse
2010/08/20 16:22:33
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Positively 4th street - AAAAAAAAAAAA by Bob Dylan You got a lotta nerve To say you are my friend When I was down You just stood there grinning You got a lotta nerve To say you gota helping hand to lend You just want to be on The side that's winning You say I let you down You know it's not like that If you're so hurt Why then don't you show it You say you lost your faith But that's not where it's at You had no faith to lose And you know it I know the reason That you talk behind my back I used to be among the crowd You're in with Do you take me for such a fool To think I'd make contact With the one who tries to hide What he don't know to begin with You see me on the street You always act surprised You say, "How are you?" "Good luck" But you don't mean it When you know as well as me You'd rather see me paralyzed Why don't you just come out once And scream it No, I do not feel that good When I see the heartbreaks you embrace If I was a master thief Perhaps I'd rob them And now I know you're dissatisfied With your position and your place Don't you understand It's not my problem I wish that for just one time You could stand inside my shoes And just for that one moment I could be you Yes, I wish that for just one time You could stand inside my shoes You'd know what a drag it is To see you
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SongCraft
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Re:Chorus vs. Verse
2010/08/20 19:03:57
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Philip, You're very kind! Glad to be of help :) Try this; . Pick an old song, without listening to it remove the chords/accompaniment, leaving just the main vocal (and harmonies if they're in the song). Point is; This will force you to focus on the very soul, the very essence of the song; 'Lyrics-Melodies' You'll also notice without chords/accompaniment there is 'Structure' such as; Verse-Chorus. And who knows, maybe that verse could be the chorus instead, or there needs to be a chorus written and that old chorus become a bridge after or before the chorus. Anyway, here's where the fun begins; . With a fresh perspective, a new approach, experiment by applying chords to the main vocal melodies-lyrics ensuring the best possible outcome that strengthens, compliments and enhances the vocal melodies. Remember; 'Play with Feeling' - 'Play from the 'Heart', close your eyes and forget about theory for a moment because sometimes a mistake can turn into the most wonderful part in a song. Oh and keeping the playing simple helps especially initially when doing this experiment (you can always add fancy fills later). Maybe the original chord progression had for example; 4 chord progression for the verses, but now you may end up with either 2, or 3, or 6 chord progression. Or 4 chords with a 5th chord at the end before it leads to the next part. Also, when doing this experiment, do one part at a time such as; verse, then move onto the chorus. And of course making sure they flow well together. In fact, this is not a bad idea when working on the production. Also remember, 'words' alone can be very powerful. Words can also attribute to the 'hook'. And words should also; 'Sound' great with the melody. Words in song also have a pattern (structure) akin to 'Stanza' (as in poetry). This attributes to 'flow', to have a nice flow throughout the song. Experiment more for example; a pattern may change in the second verse by having less (sparse) or more words (quicken) which may not be a bad idea since this may in itself lift the song onto a higher level, and it's not a bad idea to have variations going on from verse.1 to verse.2 And a song is much like a movie you want to captivate the audience and keep their interest right from the start and throughout to the very end. IMO the 'hook' should not only be the chorus. Hey I don't want my audience falling asleep halfway thru the movie :lol: Anyway, by doing this experiment (removing chords) forcing you to focus on the main vocal melodies and lyrics, you may find ways to actually strengthen the lyrics (change word(s) and also strengthen the main vocal melody, and harmonies, and sometimes the smallest change(s) can make a huge difference. -
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Philip
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Re:Chorus vs. Verse
2010/08/22 21:22:20
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SongCraft Philip, You're very kind! Glad to be of help :) Try this; . Pick an old song, without listening to it remove the chords/accompaniment, leaving just the main vocal (and harmonies if they're in the song). Point is; This will force you to focus on the very soul, the very essence of the song; 'Lyrics-Melodies' You'll also notice without chords/accompaniment there is 'Structure' such as; Verse-Chorus. And who knows, maybe that verse could be the chorus instead, or there needs to be a chorus written and that old chorus become a bridge after or before the chorus. Anyway, here's where the fun begins; . With a fresh perspective, a new approach, experiment by applying chords to the main vocal melodies-lyrics ensuring the best possible outcome that strengthens, compliments and enhances the vocal melodies. Remember; 'Play with Feeling' - 'Play from the 'Heart', close your eyes and forget about theory for a moment because sometimes a mistake can turn into the most wonderful part in a song. Oh and keeping the playing simple helps especially initially when doing this experiment (you can always add fancy fills later). Maybe the original chord progression had for example; 4 chord progression for the verses, but now you may end up with either 2, or 3, or 6 chord progression. Or 4 chords with a 5th chord at the end before it leads to the next part. Also, when doing this experiment, do one part at a time such as; verse, then move onto the chorus. And of course making sure they flow well together. In fact, this is not a bad idea when working on the production. Also remember, 'words' alone can be very powerful. Words can also attribute to the 'hook'. And words should also; 'Sound' great with the melody. Words in song also have a pattern (structure) akin to 'Stanza' (as in poetry). This attributes to 'flow', to have a nice flow throughout the song. Experiment more for example; a pattern may change in the second verse by having less (sparse) or more words (quicken) which may not be a bad idea since this may in itself lift the song onto a higher level, and it's not a bad idea to have variations going on from verse.1 to verse.2 And a song is much like a movie you want to captivate the audience and keep their interest right from the start and throughout to the very end. IMO the 'hook' should not only be the chorus. Hey I don't want my audience falling asleep halfway thru the movie :lol: Anyway, by doing this experiment (removing chords) forcing you to focus on the main vocal melodies and lyrics, you may find ways to actually strengthen the lyrics (change word(s) and also strengthen the main vocal melody, and harmonies, and sometimes the smallest change(s) can make a huge difference. - Spoken like your name, SongCraft, Ah, truly 'lyrics-melodies' are the vibe-soul of song, I strongly agree. And they must rule/hook in a 'real' song. Except that lately I've come to believe that all my latest lyrics-melodies arise dream-like and curiously from established chord progressions and beatz (I'm theorizing of course). I've become the loopy loopster monster, refusing to re-invent the song-structure wheel and its sweet theories (which BiaB has monstrously extoled into the next inevitable level of elevator music). So now I'll be listening to old songs (and new) the 'naked' Paul-Mccartney way ... but re-clothing them with stronger words, heartier takes, Melodyne experiments, bkg vocs, harmonies, and who-knows-what? I'm on it!
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SongCraft
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Re:Chorus vs. Verse
2010/08/23 00:58:09
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Just recently, with my current project I took an old song I wrote in the early 90's but felt the chorus could be strong er, I changed the chords and wow it made a huge difference. (also, vocal harmonies sound much stronger)! I believe that chords do not have to be set in stone. To me, chords are accompaniment, that are suppose to 'compliment' and 'strengthen' the 'Vibe-Soul', the very essence of the song (the main vocal melodies and words)! Other times doing the above, I've come up with more than one idea, both being strong, so I figured... ha' I could use it as a secondary-chorus, after the last chorus, as an outro-chorus in the song. It's those little unexpected changes that can work wonders in a song. Another example; change the last chord(s) in the double verse (Verse.2), it becomes the perfect transition to the chorus. That certainly compliments, lifts the main melody as a build-up to the chorus. That is the structure of the song I am working on right now. - Edited: correct - typo -
post edited by SongCraft - 2010/08/23 02:01:11
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