Chorus vs. Verse

I just think of it as the verse is one stair step of intensity, the pre chorus is one higher, and the chorus is the highest.
The details then fall into place.

Verses and choruses.....  good topic...

I am approaching this from the country and CCM POV.

Verses are designed to tell a story and build interest and tension in the listener. The music is generally lower in energy. The lyrics are setting the stage and filling in details that you will need later in the chorus. In most country and CCM songs there are often 3 verses that all add something to the story.... and most important...all the verses must point to the chorus.

A pre-chorus is a part that occurs at the end of a verse that is not really a verse, and not yet the full blown chorus.... kinda like an intro to the chorus...... setting the chorus up. The energy is building but not yet fully realized.

A chorus is the main point in the song...the energy level is usually at it's highest point, and the singer's melody line is also higher. This is where the singer is really "going for it". Listen to Martina McBride sing Independence Day to see this in action. The chorus is the place where the main idea of the song is located. Usually the title of the song is also located in the chorus lyrics. The chorus ties the verses together and helps them make sense.... at times the third verse, if properly written will give the same exact words in the chorus a totally new meaning and perspective in the listener's mind. This is common in well written country songs.

Bridges are a cool addition but only if it add something else totally new to the song. The melody and the lyrics usually take the song in a totally new, different and unexpected direction for a brief few seconds...... then the return to the verse or chorus (depending on the song structure) takes on that different perspective.

Verses, choruses, and bridges are the 3 main components to a song.... they should be similar but different enough so that a listener can identify with in seconds..... never having heard the song before.... exactly what section of the song they are listening to.

Song structure... the putting together of the verses, choruses, the bridges, pre-chorus and more..... this is totally up to the songwriter how these fit. There are literally dozens of main/popular structures.... what is interesting is when you look at the songs that make it to #1 on the charts..... you will see the same song structures appearing over and over again. These tend to be the ones that make sense to most people and therefore make the song comfortable to the listeners.

Instrumentation.....again, totally up to the musicians and the writers. A solo piano or guitar is all that is truly needed.

Generally I write parts. Some go together well, some don't. I mostly work with feel or a vision, and usually there is a song in my memory that is the inspirational jumping off point that I reference, though many times the end product does not resemble the inspiration at all.

A lot of the musical tension between verses that get resolved by the choruses are mix and arrangement driven, not so much the chords or even the melody.


For instance, a two-beat or measure pause before a chorus makes an announcement that something different is coming.

A chorus usually has a thicker arrangement, then get broken down to a simpler verse.

Here is my edits of your excellent list:
Verse                                               Chorus: 
Incremental kicks drum breaks                  Climactic with pomp 
Incremental gain   Dynamics                     max levels hyper-compressed 
Guitars and counter riffs and flourishes      More snare drums 
Center vox                                              Wider vocs and pans 
Strings & watery instrs.                            Strong rhythm Hotter Drums  
Kick near end                                         Different  Faster tempo 
inCoherent lyrics                                       Simpler hook 

                                                               Strings

                                                               Easier lyrics

"Instrumentation.....again, totally up to the musicians and the writers. A solo piano or guitar is all that is truly needed. "  Good point Guitarhacker. All great songs should be able to be performed with just a person singing with an acoustic guitar/piano. And still be a great song.

"my only suggestion is, never think about the arrangement in advance....

think about how it naturally feels to you, and go there.

otherwise, your song is going to end up sounding exactly like the one before it, and the one after it, and that is boring."

Great point Batsbrew and Jimmyman. There's no reason to be predictable. When your on automatic pilot, and just doing what's expected. Stop. Try something "alternative". Or maybe not.....

skullsession


I submit to you that the chorus doesn't always have to be the biggest thing in the song structure.

Why can't it be understated.....why can't it be the quietest section?

Such is the case with a particular piano ballad I'm currently working on. EVERYTHING (drums, bass, guitar, strings, etc.) drops out at the chorus except for piano and vocal.

And it really drives home the story in this particular case.

Good point. People need to throw away their formula's sometimes.
 

Thanks All!

Bat, you know I reverence your thoughts/songs and that your music explodes from your heart-inspiration a great bit.  Natural art-spirit must be strong for me ... without getting lost on the limb ... as pre Jimmy.

Jimmy, you prize performance as always!  I'm certain you can enliven the house, party, church, etc.  I prize holistic painting also ... which transcends performance in favor of the whole hook ... not always the sum of performances. 

(I've never been that coordinated with my right hand; so my music is more sample driven ... except for the lead instrument/vox)

Sometimes performance and musical paintings (artistic mixes, samples, etc.) fit, balance, etc ... and/or refer to the same thing.

YoyoFactory: Thanks for chiming and sympathy!  This helps me on a new song I'm now struggling with.  I always try to understand what's in your head/heart before and after your next song-wave floods the shores.  Perchance I can tame the wild beast I've become.

GuitarHacker:  That is potent and excellent!  ... Not just for Pop/Country/CCM!  Songs that stand the test of time, my/your ears, etc. ... doubtless honor your proven schemes.  The fact is, 98%+/- hymns follow the same inspiration.

Carry On (My Wayward Son) (Kansas) follows your verse-prechorus-chorus inspiration (that I just listened to).  So does ELO's Horace.

'1st listen' vs 'repeat listens':  Both are extremely important.  Perhaps the 'repeat-listens' is why the A-B verse-chorus schemes prove eternally gratifying.

Often:
1) When a song rushes headlong into chorus-pomp ... something is wrong
2) ... or worse yet ... a song never shouts a hook/chorus!

Frank: Thanks for adding the oft-forgotten ride-cymbs for the chorus.

RLD:  You do have a way of cutting to the chase and summarizing the dilemma.

skullsession


I submit to you that the chorus doesn't always have to be the biggest thing in the song structure.

Why can't it be understated.....why can't it be the quietest section?

Such is the case with a particular piano ballad I'm currently working on. EVERYTHING (drums, bass, guitar, strings, etc.) drops out at the chorus except for piano and vocal.

And it really drives home the story in this particular case.

excellent point and yes.....this can be the case. The important part is that the chorus is 99% of the time a totally different level and feel than the verses.... and 99% of the time it is a higher level but there are cases where it is not.


Other have spoken to the predictability of the chord changes and structure.  If you are writing for yourself satisfaction you can do what you want and nobody gives a flip..... however..... if you wish to have a commercial hit song..... the majority of times (and yeah there are a lot of exceptions to the rules) the song must follow a specific set of rules by the industry....(here we go!...talking about rules)  and the issue at stake is..the average listener to popular music does not like to be tricked...they like the predictability in the songs.... it makes it easier to sing along with.

If you wish to argue the issue of pop music and predictibility, go ahead..... I'm just stating what is fact in the popular songs across most genre's. Do what I mentioned..... it might take some time.... get a list of the top songs that hit #1 in the charts in the past 52 weeks.

Detail the structure...is it AABABB or  something else.... see which patterns occur most often.
Is the song slow, med, or uptempo.
What is the basic topic?  Love, heartbreak, angst.....?
What key?
What are the chord progressions used? how many other songs use the same progression?

Somewhere I have seen this charted out, and the results are amazing. The majority of the songs were all the same basic structure...about 50% for the most common one.  AABABB....

The results will show you for a fact that there are patterns to successful songs, and those that follow the rules to success will have a better chance at a #1 song.

Somewhat OT, did Johnny Cash ever write a bridge?
Seems he was always verse, chorus, verse, chorus, etc..

Many of the old country songs did not use bridges....Cash, Haggard, Twitty, all the old timers simply did not write that way. verse and chorus, that was it. throw in a break/solo/turnaround ( which is not a  bridge)  and you have the formula for an old country tune.

Bridges are used in modern country quite a bit since the writing style has changed

Thanks LanceinaStudio,

I must say ... the pearls on this thread are some of the best I've experienced!  Middleman, you've really gotten into some good stuff.

Things like,
1) the guitars can be mediocre ... but a super vox can make it sound great!  Never vice versa!  (I'm sure LanceInaStudio can appreciate that)
2) Don't mix the guitar with the piano unless going big!
3) Tape saturation is the reasonable paradigm
4) Enhancing the essential/inherent rhythm!

Spoken like a seasoned artist!

I usually do not set out to write to a structure. As I write, the structure forms...like a crystal forms.... when I finish, the song should fit one of the major structures without me having to make major modifications. Sometimes I do need to modify or change something in it to make it flow or work better.

Yeah I meant verse vsers cho vers cho bridge/middle 8 cho cho. Pretty standard these days!!

As for the ABCDE kinda structure, it could also be just called AAAA etc. It's just a song which keeps going somewhere. There is no verse of chorus. Chord structure is always changing. These tend to be 'unusual' songs..

Post in General; not directly to the OP but as a overview for anyone out there lurking in the shadows  *whooOoo* *creepy* we have 'lurkers' :lol:

Believe it or not I just woke up :lol:

Hmmm swhere was I, oh yeah Verses, Choruses....

For many years (decades) I have always started my approach to writing with just either piano or guitar with vocals and 100% of my writing is from 'feel' and 'improvisation'.

Where a lot of writers fail is; they treat the verses as something that is not as important thereby not needing to be catchy, strong enough, with strong  hooks/melodies, yeah that's usually the first biggest mistake...

If you don't catch the listeners attention in the first 'seconds' they won't want to here anymore. Such a pity if your only strong melodic part in the song is the chorus @ 1:45 on the timeline :lol:

Yeah not just hook them in with an intro but you need strong verses also. Oh an who's to say you need an intro. :lol: why not kick it off with the verse or chorus....

Aww man I've said this a thousand times; the only limitation to one's creativity are the limits one puts on them self.

I like to write strong melodies, hooks. Sitting here talking about it is all very nice and dany, talk is easy but actually 'doing it' is not as easy as some people think.  Pop music (including it's various styles/fusions such as' Rock, Metal, Country, Elecronica, blend of Hip-Hop, whatever, notice the blur on the charts these days) oh yeah it's very difficult to write a 'Great' catchy song, think about?, POP is suppose to appeal to the majority of listeners.

But you know what?, the harder you try the harder it seems to be.  Take a deep beath, relax, have more confidence in yourself, go with 'feelings', write something that is close to your heart.  Oh come on man just let it out, speed-write multiple ideas and come back in a day or two to gather the best parts that also 'flows' nicely together.

Some people have the gift to write captivating melodies - hooks, and like I said; they will write with 'feel', write from the heart.

If a song can stand on it's own with just piano (or guitar) and vocal(s) than yeah that's pretty good, also adaptable to various styles be it Tehcno/Electronica, Country, Rock, Hardcore.

So how do you define the difference between verse and chorus?, in a lot of cases for example (not to be taken literally) the verse is like questions and chorus is the answer. ;) , but hey, that's just one example and like I said; not to be taken literally so I hope you get the idea, or should I say; answer :lol:

And sometimes the Chorus and main hook might be at the beginning of the song, not a bad idea since you can capture the listener attention right from the word go.... 1, 2, BANG!!! The vocals come in, straight in the hook, no pussyfooting around :lol:

And a lot of the time as others have said and which is based on an old formula; the song structure is such that there are steps leading up to the highest step, the chorus.  But for a song; words are critically important also, it's part n parcel, words not only have to be captivating, interesting but also... 'sound' great, afterall it's part of the hook.

As I write from just piano (or guitar) and sing, I like my songs to flow smoothly from start to end, have a nice flow and tell a story, rather then sounding like the verses and choruses have been tacked together and thereby sounding like someone took the lazy way out and tacked on a bunch of pre-recorded music loops that don't flow well together. But sometimes words don't have to make sense, in fact there's been hit songs with words that don't make sense at all but because those words sounded GREAT, again, words are part n parcel in relation to the melodies/hook. Example song; Daydream Believer. When Davy first heard that song he thought; what the heck is this song about? :lol:

Joke; How do you tell the difference between a Loop'ster and a 'Composer'?, a true loop'ster will call their compositions 'Beatz', a true composer with good musicianship skills will call theirs a 'Song' or 'Instrumental'.


-

Philip


Hey SongCraft, long time since I've heard from you (3 weeks?).

This is one of those feel songs; I ad-hoc'd from a beatz in 30-40 minutes (including lyrics and bkv's) being a loopster (sucker) for the beatz ... but then it morphed into something wonderful ... while retaining the original AAAAAAAAAA structure. 

And our song forum's superb guitarist, Shane, joined in for the romp.

So, for pop sake, I want this to be a fun song for everyone (like yours, SongCraft).  That means inspiration, dreams, must be sifted for the vanities that bore one another.  You have to understand, I think too much. 

I'll write 100's of sketches because I've perceived many many great song beauties that I try to record without destroying the simplicity of the guitar piano vox and beat(z).

Vox (nu-school) stuff is blowing my mind of late (in a good way?).  Songcraft, I feel you're an old school guru with nu-school ideas:

Interesting, AABA, is noted for elegence in 'Somewhere over the Rainbow' (a song about a girl & dog ... to be swept away by a tempest outside Kansas) ... but this successful pattern has challenged me.

Anyway, SongCraft, thanks for taking the bait on this and validating vibe, IIRC, 1st and foremost (which your songs are full of)!

You're welcome and thanks for the compliment, and I always appreciate your insightful, detailed comments on these forums :)

Yes it's been a while since the last time we bumped into each other on the forums.  Hope you're doing well.  From memory; you do write clever and catchy songs, impressive :)

For the past 6 months I've been busy, and I've been experimenting with music, wanting to push my writing skills further; to boldly go where some are reluctant to go :lol:

In regards to your comment; 'Nu-school Vocals'; 
Another area I have experimented with whilst maintaining my old-school techniques.  I like to 'layer' and 'over-layer' vocals, 2-way, 4-way, interplay, it's a happy foursome :lol: but seriously, for it to work the melodies need to be strong and the main vocal line phrasing needs to allow for such a happy kinky foursome of interplay :lol: (actually I think that's '8' vocal tracks not including the lead vocal)!

My song; 'Into Your Love' features the vocal interplay that I'm talking about.  I will eventually get back to the mix in the future to bring the harmonies out clearer.  IMO it's critical that I take long breaks between each step, (1) initial song composition, (2) arrangements, (3) performances - recording, (4) mixing, and (5) final mix prior to (6) mastering. 

Also, in-between each step I take notes and get back to it - refreshed.

I already have yet another new song done (although without the interplay)!

Currently I'm doing yet another song/project that will feature the interplay of vocals I'm talking about, a song I wrote in the early 90's, so far it's shaping up better than expected, better than the original recording.

In regards to your comment; 'Nu-school Vocals' {continued};  I don't have AT but I do have Melodyne and have used it on harmonies vocals (although not on all harmonies).  However, a singer still needs to be able to deliver a naturally, 'reasonably' in pitch (being that it cuts for live performances) and have a decent voice, great vocal delivery-technique, all that nicely captured to begin with.

I believe that 'Vocals' are like an instrument, experimenting in that area is cool afterall thanks to the Beatles DT followed by ADT was made possible and is still widely used today and will be in future, along with other processors/techniques thanks to 'Cher' the AT followed by Modeling (throat/Gender) is very popular regardless of 'strictly' old-schoolers disappointment.  All these tools will be with us now and developed further and even-more popular in future, it's not a passing fad, the majority of people actually like that effect!  Anyway, all debates ended long ago, resistance is futile {cheeky-grin} :D

But as always, the bottomline remains; still need fantastic melodies - strong catchy hooks, a great song and nicely capturing all those great performances definitely helps ;)


To the general readers out there;
I did not mean to appear that I disrespect loop'sters and to be honest and fair IMO there are composers that use loops 'intensively' in their songs with impressive end results, worthy of all due respect.  Also, using loops is not limited to specific Techno-Electronica genres (see previous post in regards to 'fusions')


-

The Kiosk Project


For the record, here is IMHO, one of the best AAAAA songs ever recorded.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQciegmLPAo&feature=av2n

If you have a great story and performance you would never notice

I noticed it straight away, also notice the occasional break (rpt) on the one chord.  I have written AAAAAA structured songs such as; 'I Have Feelings' that many people have said is one of my best songs, but although there are only a few chords throughout there is structure/arrangement; an intro, verses, choruses, break, bridge, outro/end.

-