swamptooth
Max Output Level: -53 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2229
- Joined: 2012/04/16 15:44:21
- Status: offline
Re: Confusion about 6/8 time and bpm
2013/08/25 16:44:11
(permalink)
@jeff Because the 8th note is the beat at 60bpm in 6/8 time there should be 60 8th notes in one minute of music. If I'm wrong on this let me know.
Arvid H. PetersonSonar X3E Prod / X2A / X1PE | Cubase 9.5.1 | Reason 9.5 | Sibelius7 | Pure DataNative-Instruments Komplete 10 Ultimate and a smattering of other pluginsHome-brewed VSTs Toshiba Satellite S855-S5378 (16GB RAM, modified with 2x 750GB HDDs, Windows 8.1 x64) Samson Graphite 49, M-Audio Oxygen 49, Korg nanoPAD2, Webcam motion tracking programs M-Audio Fast Track UltraMember, ASCAP
|
swamptooth
Max Output Level: -53 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2229
- Joined: 2012/04/16 15:44:21
- Status: offline
Re: Confusion about 6/8 time and bpm
2013/08/25 16:45:38
(permalink)
@jeff Because the 8th note is the beat at 60bpm in 6/8 time there should be 60 8th notes in one minute of music. If I'm wrong on this let me know.
Arvid H. PetersonSonar X3E Prod / X2A / X1PE | Cubase 9.5.1 | Reason 9.5 | Sibelius7 | Pure DataNative-Instruments Komplete 10 Ultimate and a smattering of other pluginsHome-brewed VSTs Toshiba Satellite S855-S5378 (16GB RAM, modified with 2x 750GB HDDs, Windows 8.1 x64) Samson Graphite 49, M-Audio Oxygen 49, Korg nanoPAD2, Webcam motion tracking programs M-Audio Fast Track UltraMember, ASCAP
|
Jeff Evans
Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5139
- Joined: 2009/04/13 18:20:16
- Location: Ballarat, Australia
- Status: offline
Re: Confusion about 6/8 time and bpm
2013/08/25 16:46:25
(permalink)
The confusion here is due the the way 6/8 time is felt. It is meant for fast tempos of 2/4 time actually. I would be really be doing two bars of 3/8 time. That is the correct feel for 6/8. NOT 6 eigth notes of 3/4 time. They are quite different. When you look at it this way all the DAW's will have issues with the metronome. Because two beats of 3/8 time is not the same tempo as 3 beats of 2/8 time. That is where the confusion is.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
|
robert_e_bone
Moderator
- Total Posts : 8968
- Joined: 2007/12/26 22:09:28
- Location: Palatine, IL
- Status: offline
Re: Confusion about 6/8 time and bpm
2013/08/25 16:51:34
(permalink)
@Jeff Evans Quoting you" I could do a piece easily that Bob may be talking about and change the time sig anywhere along the timeline. And the tempo will either remain constant but the metronome will change at the time sig changes or you could go one further and change the tempo as well. I must admit though I am not sure how it would handle all the 4/4 loops in this scenario though, have not tried that." The tempo must double in Sonar, and it should NOT need to. Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
|
swamptooth
Max Output Level: -53 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2229
- Joined: 2012/04/16 15:44:21
- Status: offline
Re: Confusion about 6/8 time and bpm
2013/08/25 17:14:35
(permalink)
well now i'm really confused because i just did 2 project tests - one in studio one and one in sonar... set both to 6/8 time and 60bpm and inserted a string of 8th notes on a midi track this is the result... https://skydrive.live.com...d=5DBE71A770FCC390!330
Arvid H. PetersonSonar X3E Prod / X2A / X1PE | Cubase 9.5.1 | Reason 9.5 | Sibelius7 | Pure DataNative-Instruments Komplete 10 Ultimate and a smattering of other pluginsHome-brewed VSTs Toshiba Satellite S855-S5378 (16GB RAM, modified with 2x 750GB HDDs, Windows 8.1 x64) Samson Graphite 49, M-Audio Oxygen 49, Korg nanoPAD2, Webcam motion tracking programs M-Audio Fast Track UltraMember, ASCAP
|
Jeff Evans
Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5139
- Joined: 2009/04/13 18:20:16
- Location: Ballarat, Australia
- Status: offline
Re: Confusion about 6/8 time and bpm
2013/08/25 17:28:38
(permalink)
Ok I can understand your confusion and yes you are right in that tempo does need to change. Example: If you do a single bar of 2/4 time at 60 BPM then you will need two seconds to complete the bar. Now you can divide that 2/4 time up into two lots of 3 eighth notes. In order to keep the timing per bar the same one has to now go up to 90 BPM of 6/8 time sig and you will still fit 6 eigth notes in and they will take the same time. EXCEPT you are feeling it differently now. You are feeling 3 groups of two eigtth notes but what you really want is to feel two groups of 3 eigth notes. The way I would do it would be to select 2/4 time and set the grid up so it is showing eigth note triplets per quarter note. Hence you can insert notes etc and you will get the TRUE feeling for 6/8 time. 6/8 time is meant to be a faster 2/4 thing where you get the feeling of a fast 3/4 feel per beat. (that is how my wife explained it to me and she is a trained classical musician) So yes DAW's get confused about how they are clicking off 6/8 time and I think it is good that this has been brought up. The problem is how the 6 eight notes are interpreted within a 6/8 bar. That little video that was mentioned earlier is actually how 6/8 time is felt. The way to work out the tempo that is required is to feel the 6/8 as two beats of 3/8 and figure out what the 2/4 tempo has to be in order to make it happen. To answer Sharke's question below. A beat is always a quarter note and can be 2 eigth notes or 3eights notes as in the case of 6/8 time. (6/8= 2 beats of 3 eigth notes) You would need some tricky metronome options as mentioned below (now in PT) in order to be able to click this correctly.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2013/08/25 18:39:41
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
|
sharke
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 13933
- Joined: 2012/08/03 00:13:00
- Location: NYC
- Status: offline
Re: Confusion about 6/8 time and bpm
2013/08/25 17:33:07
(permalink)
Is the definition of a beat as a quarter note regardless of signature a requirement of MIDI tempo?
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
|
swamptooth
Max Output Level: -53 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2229
- Joined: 2012/04/16 15:44:21
- Status: offline
Re: Confusion about 6/8 time and bpm
2013/08/25 17:37:24
(permalink)
As i understand it sharke, yes. Look up midi spec on google and most of the documentation points in that direction. Apparently pro tools has a beat specification in their metronome you can set to eighth notes but i haven't used it.
Arvid H. PetersonSonar X3E Prod / X2A / X1PE | Cubase 9.5.1 | Reason 9.5 | Sibelius7 | Pure DataNative-Instruments Komplete 10 Ultimate and a smattering of other pluginsHome-brewed VSTs Toshiba Satellite S855-S5378 (16GB RAM, modified with 2x 750GB HDDs, Windows 8.1 x64) Samson Graphite 49, M-Audio Oxygen 49, Korg nanoPAD2, Webcam motion tracking programs M-Audio Fast Track UltraMember, ASCAP
|
sharke
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 13933
- Joined: 2012/08/03 00:13:00
- Location: NYC
- Status: offline
Re: Confusion about 6/8 time and bpm
2013/08/25 17:55:52
(permalink)
OK so I now understand why Sonar, internally, thinks of beats as quarter notes. But really, the end user shouldn't have to deal with Sonar "internally," they should be interacting with a wrapper which hides internals and presents a more "musical" front end. As far as I can tell there is no clear cut musical definition of a beat when it comes to determining tempo - it's whatever the score says it is. Therefore, I believe Sonar should allow the user to determine what the tempo means. Of course if we're talking about Sonar becoming more musician-friendly then they really ought to update the score editor as well
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
|
robert_e_bone
Moderator
- Total Posts : 8968
- Joined: 2007/12/26 22:09:28
- Location: Palatine, IL
- Status: offline
Re: Confusion about 6/8 time and bpm
2013/08/25 18:02:57
(permalink)
Sonar Step Sequencer ONLY supports a meter base of a quarter note. PERIOD. SO, when I want to record something in 7/8, I need to set it up as 7/4, and then DOUBLE THE TEMPO so that it plays back at the right speed. This is due to it having the time value of quarter notes, when they SHOULD have been eighth notes. Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
|
swamptooth
Max Output Level: -53 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2229
- Joined: 2012/04/16 15:44:21
- Status: offline
Re: Confusion about 6/8 time and bpm
2013/08/25 18:08:06
(permalink)
2/4 time with 8th note triplets is not the same as 6/8. The "beat" in 6/8 is a dotted quarter note, not a triplet in a quarter. I think if youre referring to the feel of triplet s as 6/8 then that's where our misunderstanding was coming from. http://answers.yahoo.com/...=20110903170545AAuz1Fg
Arvid H. PetersonSonar X3E Prod / X2A / X1PE | Cubase 9.5.1 | Reason 9.5 | Sibelius7 | Pure DataNative-Instruments Komplete 10 Ultimate and a smattering of other pluginsHome-brewed VSTs Toshiba Satellite S855-S5378 (16GB RAM, modified with 2x 750GB HDDs, Windows 8.1 x64) Samson Graphite 49, M-Audio Oxygen 49, Korg nanoPAD2, Webcam motion tracking programs M-Audio Fast Track UltraMember, ASCAP
|
Jeff Evans
Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5139
- Joined: 2009/04/13 18:20:16
- Location: Ballarat, Australia
- Status: offline
Re: Confusion about 6/8 time and bpm
2013/08/25 18:48:19
(permalink)
Yes you are right s wamptooth sorry for the confusion. I have changed my post above accordingly. 6/8 time can be felt in 2/4 but 3 eigth notes per beat. They can be beamed as a group of three eighth notes. The only way a DAW is going to be able to click out those 3 eight note clicks per beat is if it has some special options for that. Studio One does have a double tempo click feature though which can be useful as well. Tempo stays the same but number of clicks you are hearing doubles. But this still does not help in a 6/8 time sig. This link explains it well too: http://www.guitarland.com...sFund/Meter/Meter.html One way to get a metronome to literally do anything you want is to use midi as the source of the metronome instead. It does mean using a synth for the purposes of just generating a click. A General midi device is good set for drums using the C#1 clave sound. I did this for many years and it works perfectly. Then you can make up any sort of click track you want. Create patterns in midi and copy them etc.. eg 6/8 time sig and getting three clicks out per beat which would be impossible otherwise. It allows you to do strange things with the click if you wanted to in time sig changes. It does not interfere with the audio or use any CPU resources either. BUT you must be using a DAW that maintains relentless midi timing no matter how hard the audio side of the program is working. It is also preferable for the midi interface to be connected to another port, not the same one your audio interface may be on. eg Serial port as is mine with Unitor 8. Old fashioned yes but timing wise, seriously solid.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2013/08/25 19:15:47
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
|
swamptooth
Max Output Level: -53 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2229
- Joined: 2012/04/16 15:44:21
- Status: offline
Re: Confusion about 6/8 time and bpm
2013/08/25 19:47:15
(permalink)
@bob - i'm at the point with step sequencer that i just set up the time sig to 7/4 and remembering for that section that each quarter note is actually an eighth note in reality. that way the measures line up and it's just a slight amount of conversion that i need to do in my head.
Arvid H. PetersonSonar X3E Prod / X2A / X1PE | Cubase 9.5.1 | Reason 9.5 | Sibelius7 | Pure DataNative-Instruments Komplete 10 Ultimate and a smattering of other pluginsHome-brewed VSTs Toshiba Satellite S855-S5378 (16GB RAM, modified with 2x 750GB HDDs, Windows 8.1 x64) Samson Graphite 49, M-Audio Oxygen 49, Korg nanoPAD2, Webcam motion tracking programs M-Audio Fast Track UltraMember, ASCAP
|
sharke
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 13933
- Joined: 2012/08/03 00:13:00
- Location: NYC
- Status: offline
Re: Confusion about 6/8 time and bpm
2013/08/25 20:18:49
(permalink)
Not sure if it's OK to "hijack" this thread with a general musical question, but since the topic is time signatures and the participants here seem to have a brain for this sort of this, I wonder if you might help me to figure out the time signature of a melody I've started sketching out today? I cannot quite wrap my head around it. It came about through all this talk about 6/8 and me experimenting with time sigs and tempos in Sonar. You know the thing...you're just playing around and a tune comes out of it. Well I have the project time sig set to 6/8 and 52bpm, the same as the project which inspired this whole question in the first place. At this point I've just sketched out some basic chords and a melody with rudimentary sounds. You'll notice that there's two parts to the melody. In the first part, my foot wants to tap 6 beats to the bar, but the emphasis is on every second beat. So it can't really be 6/8, can it? Forgetting about the project time sig, does this sound more like 6/4? Or is it bars of 2/4 which come in groups of 3? I'm really confused. The second part is different, I find myself tapping 4 beats to the bar. Or again, is this 2/4? Would really appreciate some time signature input here. Once again sorry if this is the wrong thread to ask this....maybe I should post in the techniques forum. Sorry about it sounding so rough, there is absolutely no mix at this point...and sorry if the hats at the start confuse, I have no idea why the export included them like that. https://soundcloud.com/sharke-1/melody
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
|
Jeff Evans
Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5139
- Joined: 2009/04/13 18:20:16
- Location: Ballarat, Australia
- Status: offline
Re: Confusion about 6/8 time and bpm
2013/08/25 20:42:49
(permalink)
I am feeling it in 6/4 at 104 BPM, or a two bar phrase in 3/4. It is over 6 beats either way you look at it. The second section sounds like it could be in 4/4 but have something like a group of 4/4 bars followed by a 2/4 bar etc. I would have to put into my DAW and work it out but that is how I am hearing it. Nice tune too. Tricky as it rhythmically crosses the bar lines (melody wise) all the time. Look at the timing of the chords to determine the bar break up. It is definitely at 104 BPM though not 52. (that is how I am feeling it anyway) What I like about this too is that you have not been influenced by anything in terms of coming up with the melody and its timing. You have done that first and now you are figuring out the time sig etc to fit. The better way to do it.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
|
sharke
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 13933
- Joined: 2012/08/03 00:13:00
- Location: NYC
- Status: offline
Re: Confusion about 6/8 time and bpm
2013/08/25 20:54:54
(permalink)
Jeff Evans I am feeling it in 6/4 at 104 BPM, or a two bar phrase in 3/4. It is over 6 beats either way you look at it. The second section sounds like it could be in 4/4 but have something like a group of 4/4 bars followed by a 2/4 bar etc. I would have to put into my DAW and work it out but that is how I am hearing it. Nice tune too. Tricky as it rhythmically crosses the bar lines (melody wise) all the time. Look at the timing of the chords to determine the bar break up. It is definitely at 104 BPM though not 52. (that is how I am feeling it anyway)
Thanks for the input Jeff. I guess I should really change the project tempo to 104 going forward. I guess this also means I'll have to double the MIDI clips in length. The phrases in the first part are definitely 6 beats long, but what confuses me is how signatures like 6/4 are supposed to "feel." Because I'm feeling the emphasis on every second beat (ONE two THREE four FIVE six etc) but what I've read about 6/4 time is that like 6/8 time, it's felt as two groups of three. So maybe 2/4 would be a better fit? Am I writing a march here?
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
|
sharke
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 13933
- Joined: 2012/08/03 00:13:00
- Location: NYC
- Status: offline
Re: Confusion about 6/8 time and bpm
2013/08/25 20:56:15
(permalink)
Jeff Evans What I like about this too is that you have not been influenced by anything in terms of coming up with the melody and its timing. You have done that first and now you are figuring out the time sig etc to fit. The better way to do it.
Yeah that's the way I always do it! I have to feel a tune in my head first. Get it down, then sort out the details later!
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
|
robert_e_bone
Moderator
- Total Posts : 8968
- Joined: 2007/12/26 22:09:28
- Location: Palatine, IL
- Status: offline
Re: Confusion about 6/8 time and bpm
2013/08/25 21:02:12
(permalink)
swamptooth @bob - i'm at the point with step sequencer that i just set up the time sig to 7/4 and remembering for that section that each quarter note is actually an eighth note in reality. that way the measures line up and it's just a slight amount of conversion that i need to do in my head.
I want to make sure I understand what you posted. Can you elaborate on this? To make 7/4 play as is it was recorded as 7/8 you will have to double the tempo of the song at the point of the 7/4. Is that what you meant? (because it IS what I meant). Just want to make sure we are on the same page. Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
|
Jeff Evans
Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5139
- Joined: 2009/04/13 18:20:16
- Location: Ballarat, Australia
- Status: offline
Re: Confusion about 6/8 time and bpm
2013/08/25 21:06:58
(permalink)
2/4 solves a lot of issues, good idea! It is possible to have something like 3 bars of 4/4 followed by a 2/4 bar. I have seen it all the time. What that does is set up a nice 4/4 thing going on and then the 2/4 bar at the end of it to make it fit etc.. Count up the number of beats the B section is taking and then figure out how it needs to be broken down. eg it might 14 beats which is yes 7 bars of 2/4 but it is also 3 bars of 4 followed by a 2/4 bar. The difference here is that the 7 bars of 2/4 will sound like 2/4 bars all the way through whereas the three bars of 4 followed by a 2/4 bar will sound like the tune is slipping back into 4/4 for a moment and then the listener gets fooled because the sequence restarts earlier than it should. It could also be 4 bars of 3/4 followed by a 2/4 bar. But that will sound like it is still in 3 with the 2/4 bar being the link to repeat of that section or the next section. You sort of have to decide that. Fun stuff.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
|
sharke
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 13933
- Joined: 2012/08/03 00:13:00
- Location: NYC
- Status: offline
Re: Confusion about 6/8 time and bpm
2013/08/25 21:10:05
(permalink)
Wow I guess the possibilities are endless....
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
|
swamptooth
Max Output Level: -53 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2229
- Joined: 2012/04/16 15:44:21
- Status: offline
Re: Confusion about 6/8 time and bpm
2013/08/25 21:40:42
(permalink)
robert_e_bone
swamptooth @bob - i'm at the point with step sequencer that i just set up the time sig to 7/4 and remembering for that section that each quarter note is actually an eighth note in reality. that way the measures line up and it's just a slight amount of conversion that i need to do in my head.
I want to make sure I understand what you posted. Can you elaborate on this? To make 7/4 play as is it was recorded as 7/8 you will have to double the tempo of the song at the point of the 7/4. Is that what you meant? (because it IS what I meant). Just want to make sure we are on the same page. Bob Bone
ok here's an example. take a new project in sonar and set signature to 6/8 and bpm to 60. the problem with this is that sonar still thinks a beat is a quarter note. so, halve the bpms and you get the right tempo, assuming you are defining a beat as an eighth note, and not a dotted quarter note. so, because sonar ALWAYS thinks a beat is a quarter note, it's 6/4 at 60 bpms is the "real world" eqivalent as 6/8 at 60bpms with a beat defined as an eighth note (not as a dotted quarter). so, set the time signature to 7/4 leave the tempo the same and PRETEND a quarter note is an eighth note, which would make an eighth note a sixteenth, etc...
Arvid H. PetersonSonar X3E Prod / X2A / X1PE | Cubase 9.5.1 | Reason 9.5 | Sibelius7 | Pure DataNative-Instruments Komplete 10 Ultimate and a smattering of other pluginsHome-brewed VSTs Toshiba Satellite S855-S5378 (16GB RAM, modified with 2x 750GB HDDs, Windows 8.1 x64) Samson Graphite 49, M-Audio Oxygen 49, Korg nanoPAD2, Webcam motion tracking programs M-Audio Fast Track UltraMember, ASCAP
|
Tom Riggs
Max Output Level: -57.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1752
- Joined: 2003/11/08 22:47:26
- Location: Displaced Kansan living in Philippines
- Status: offline
Re: Confusion about 6/8 time and bpm
2013/08/25 22:22:46
(permalink)
Jamstix has the option to sync at half or double the host tempo.
i7-3770k OC at 4.5Ghz, asus p8z77-m, 16g g.skill aries 1600 c9 ram, Noctua d-14 cooler, RME HDSPe Raydat, Motu FastLane, Nvidea GTX 980 ti 6G, windows 7 and 8.1 pro x64. Sonar Platinum and x3e currently installed My Music My YouTube
|
sharke
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 13933
- Joined: 2012/08/03 00:13:00
- Location: NYC
- Status: offline
Re: Confusion about 6/8 time and bpm
2013/08/25 22:31:32
(permalink)
Tom Riggs Jamstix has the option to sync at half or double the host tempo.
That's actually very good to know, thanks. I've been thinking of making it my next major purchase.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
|
dmbaer
Max Output Level: -49.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2585
- Joined: 2008/08/04 20:10:22
- Location: Concord CA
- Status: offline
Re: Confusion about 6/8 time and bpm
2013/08/26 12:38:11
(permalink)
Take a look at the following for some insights into why things are done the way they are. First, there's tempo in MIDI standard file format (from: http://home.roadrunner.com/~jgglatt/tech/midifile.htm): Tempo FF 51 03 tt tt tt Indicates a tempo change. The 3 data bytes of tt tt tt are the tempo in microseconds per quarter note. In other words, the microsecond tempo value tells you how long each one of your sequencer's "quarter notes" should be. For example, if you have the 3 bytes of 07 A1 20, then each quarter note should be 0x07A120 (or 500,000) microseconds long.So, the MIDI file format expresses tempo as "the amount of time (ie, microseconds) per quarter note". NOTE: If there are no tempo events in a MIDI file, then the tempo is assumed to be 120 BPMIn a format 0 file, the tempo changes are scattered throughout the one MTrk. In format 1, the very first MTrk should consist of only the tempo (and time signature) events so that it could be read by some device capable of generating a "tempo map". It is best not to place MIDI events in this MTrk. In format 2, each MTrk should begin with at least one initial tempo (and time signature) event. And according to the same source, a beat is always based on quarter notes (from: http://home.roadrunner.com/~jgglatt/tech/midifile.htm): BPM Normally, musicians express tempo as "the amount of quarter notes in every minute (ie, time period)". This is the opposite of the way that the MIDI file format expresses it. When musicians refer to a "beat" in terms of tempo, they are referring to a quarter note (ie, a quarter note is always 1 beat when talking about tempo, regardless of the time signature. Yes, it's a bit confusing to non-musicians that the time signature's "beat" may not be the same thing as the tempo's "beat" -- it won't be unless the time signature's beat also happens to be a quarter note. But that's the traditional definition of BPM tempo). To a musician, tempo is therefore always "how many quarter notes happen during every minute". Musicians refer to this measurement as BPM (ie, Beats Per Minute). So a tempo of 100 BPM means that a musician must be able to play 100 steady quarter notes, one right after the other, in one minute. That's how "fast" the "musical tempo" is at 100 BPM. It's very important that you understand the concept of how a musician expresses "musical tempo" (ie, BPM) in order to properly present tempo settings to a musician, and yet be able to relate it to how the MIDI file format expresses tempo. To convert the Tempo Meta-Event's tempo (ie, the 3 bytes that specify the amount of microseconds per quarter note) to BPM: BPM = 60,000,000/(tt tt tt) For example, a tempo of 120 BPM = 07 A1 20 microseconds per quarter note. So why does the MIDI file format use "time per quarter note" instead of "quarter notes per time" to specify its tempo? Well, its easier to specify more precise tempos with the former. With BPM, sometimes you have to deal with fractional tempos (for example, 100.3 BPM) if you want to allow a finer resolution to the tempo. Using microseconds to express tempo offers plenty of resolution. Also, SMPTE is a time-based protocol (ie, it's based upon seconds, minutes, and hours, rather than a musical tempo). Therefore it's easier to relate the MIDI file's tempo to SMPTE timing if you express it as microseconds. Many musical devices now use SMPTE to sync their playback.
|
slartabartfast
Max Output Level: -22.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5289
- Joined: 2005/10/30 01:38:34
- Status: offline
Re: Confusion about 6/8 time and bpm
2013/08/26 14:57:12
(permalink)
dmbaer Normally, musicians express tempo as "the amount of quarter notes in every minute (ie, time period)". This is the opposite of the way that the MIDI file format expresses it. When musicians refer to a "beat" in terms of tempo, they are referring to a quarter note (ie, a quarter note is always 1 beat when talking about tempo, regardless of the time signature. Yes, it's a bit confusing to non-musicians that the time signature's "beat" may not be the same thing as the tempo's "beat" -- it won't be unless the time signature's beat also happens to be a quarter note. But that's the traditional definition of BPM tempo). To a musician, tempo is therefore always "how many quarter notes happen during every minute". Musicians refer to this measurement as BPM (ie, Beats Per Minute). So a tempo of 100 BPM means that a musician must be able to play 100 steady quarter notes, one right after the other, in one minute. That's how "fast" the "musical tempo" is at 100 BPM. It's very important that you understand the concept of how a musician expresses "musical tempo" (ie, BPM) in order to properly present tempo settings to a musician, and yet be able to relate it to how the MIDI file format expresses tempo.
I had seen the roadrunner stuff previously, and I must admit that while it may be true that MIDI always sees tempo in terms of quarter notes, it is not at all clear that musicians always do so. Dozens of references to extracting tempo from metronome markings say that the metronome marking should include the note duration = the metronome number (tocks per minute) to avoid confusion about how it is to be interpreted. Many say that when that note length is missing, it is assumed that the beat is equal to the duration of the number under the slash in the time signature. So a metronome mark of 60 would produce 60 eighth notes in a minute in 6/8 time. http://piano.about.com/od/musicaltermssymbols/ss/introSheetMusic_4.htm http://www2.siba.fi/muste1/index.php?id=102&la=en
|
Jim Roseberry
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 9871
- Joined: 2004/03/23 11:34:51
- Location: Ohio
- Status: offline
Re: Confusion about 6/8 time and bpm
2013/08/26 15:57:39
(permalink)
OK guys... I'm confused after reading thru these posts. When you're in 6/8 time, the click is *supposed* to be on 8th notes (not quarters or other subdivisions). Six eighth note ticks per measure X2 does exactly this... It feels like the tempo is doubled... but it hasn't actually changed. As an example... alternate two bars of 4/4 with two bars of 6/8... at the same tempo. Play eight notes (acting like a hi-hat or ride part) over the 4/4 section (it may help to think of it as 8/8). Play eight notes over the 6/8 section. The tempo doesn't change. The backbeats (where the snare would hit) certainly change in the 6/8 section. As someone with a drummer's background (long ago), I think the confusion here is that the OP is actually wanting a slow 12/8 feel... where the backbeats are still "felt" as a slow 2 and 4 (with triplet subdivisions).
|
slartabartfast
Max Output Level: -22.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5289
- Joined: 2005/10/30 01:38:34
- Status: offline
Re: Confusion about 6/8 time and bpm
2013/08/26 19:13:40
(permalink)
Jim Roseberry OK guys... I'm confused after reading thru these posts.  When you're in 6/8 time, the click is *supposed* to be on 8th notes (not quarters or other subdivisions). Six eighth note ticks per measure X2 does exactly this... It feels like the tempo is doubled... but it hasn't actually changed.
I think that is the OP's point. If you interpret the tempo as being set relative to the time signature, the tempo should change when you change the time signature but keep the same tempo measured as beats per minute. Sonar's metronome accents do change, but the overall speed of the section (measured as real time in seconds to play) does not. If a musician were reading a metronome mark as [quarter note indicated]=60, he would interpret it that the piece should be played twice as fast as if he is reading [eighth note indicated]=60. At least he would unless he has adopted the rather strange convention noted in the roadrunner article quoted above that all tempo is always expressed as quarter notes per minute by musicians. Your experiment confirms that Sonar is interpreting your input into the "tempo" box as the number of quarter notes per minute and not as the number of beats per minute as shown in the musical score or followed by Sonar's metronome accent. Sonar recognizes that the note duration of a beat has changed as reflected in the measure marks in the staff view and the metronome accents, but does not adjust the speed of playback to that beat duration. That inconsistency is the source of the confusion. Since the number you can enter in the tempo box is adjustable in a ridiculously wide range to a resolution of hundredths of the unspecified timebase (apparently a quarter note), some simple math should let you work out a usable tempo in practice.
post edited by slartabartfast - 2013/08/26 19:22:34
|
dmbaer
Max Output Level: -49.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2585
- Joined: 2008/08/04 20:10:22
- Location: Concord CA
- Status: offline
Re: Confusion about 6/8 time and bpm
2013/08/26 19:18:44
(permalink)
slartabartfast I had seen the roadrunner stuff previously, and I must admit that while it may be true that MIDI always sees tempo in terms of quarter notes, it is not at all clear that musicians always do so.
No argument from me on that point. I was simply trying to demonstrate why tempo is quarter-note-based in the context of MIDI. It goes back to the MIDI standard file format, host clock behavior and probably a bunch of other stuff. It's easy to see how sequencer/DAW developers might prefer that view of things in preference to the less formal concept where beats are the lower number in the time signature.
|
slartabartfast
Max Output Level: -22.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5289
- Joined: 2005/10/30 01:38:34
- Status: offline
Re: Confusion about 6/8 time and bpm
2013/08/26 19:26:15
(permalink)
dmbaer
slartabartfast I had seen the roadrunner stuff previously, and I must admit that while it may be true that MIDI always sees tempo in terms of quarter notes, it is not at all clear that musicians always do so.
No argument from me on that point. I was simply trying to demonstrate why tempo is quarter-note-based in the context of MIDI. It goes back to the MIDI standard file format, host clock behavior and probably a bunch of other stuff. It's easy to see how sequencer/DAW developers might prefer that view of things in preference to the less formal concept where beats are the lower number in the time signature.
It would look like it would be a trivial job to set your sequencer tempo input to a timebase of beats per minute and do the math to bring it back to a MIDI quarter note. I wonder if the main problem might be the capability of Sonar to use "groove clips." Adjusting variable speed audio to a shifting tempo if the timebase were also shifting might be more of a problem.
|
tom1
Max Output Level: -79 dBFS
- Total Posts : 559
- Joined: 2008/03/23 16:40:52
- Status: offline
Re: Confusion about 6/8 time and bpm
2013/08/26 19:51:54
(permalink)
OK guys... I'm confused after reading thru these posts. When you're in 6/8 time, the click is *supposed* to be on 8th notes (not quarters or other subdivisions).Six eighth note ticks per measureX2 does exactly this...It feels like the tempo is doubled... but it hasn't actually changed.As an example... alternate two bars of 4/4 with two bars of 6/8... at the same tempo.Play eight notes (acting like a hi-hat or ride part) over the 4/4 section (it may help to think of it as 8/8).Play eight notes over the 6/8 section. The tempo doesn't change. The backbeats (where the snare would hit) certainly change in the 6/8 section. Sharke is saying that if the eighth note is the reference note in 6/8 time (and it should be) and if the BPM is 60, in one minute there should be 60 eighth notes; Sonar's metronome plays 120 eighth notes during this time. I was under the impression this was true in all DAWs
Sonar Producer X2/ProTools/Cubase/Reaper Studio Cat 32 Gig Ram East West: Hollywood Strings/Brass/Woodwinds/Goliath Kontakt Ultimate / FabFilter Bundle / EaReverb / Maag4 / Izotope Ozone 5 / Izotope RX2 / Elastique / Waves
|