Confusion about 6/8 time and bpm

Your not wrong that is just the way sonar does it. However with written music 6/8 is often counted and conducted in 2 not 6 beats. In the case of counting is 2 the tempo is applied to the dotted quarter and will be clearly noted in the music.

I found that exact same thing recently when playing in a midi drum part for Metallica's "Nothing Else Matters". The music score clearly states the tempo at 96 (IIRC) in 6/8. So I bang those numbers in to find everything completely out. I actually changed the time sig to 2/4 to correct it. I didn't think to halve the tempo as I would have much prefered to hear the metronome playing 8th notes as opposed to 2x1/4.

Weird!

Luckily I had enough theory background to do something, about it, even if I went about it in a round about way.

 
 
In my experience (I transcribed lead sheets for music publishers in my younger days) when I placed a BPM at the top of the manuscript I would always write the note that was equivalent to one beat.
 
 
 
Even when it's obvious it still seems like a good practice; If you are basing your BPM on a eighth note, then place an eighth note with an equal sign next to the BPM.
 
 
As mentioned, If you are in 6/8 time and the BPM is based on two beats per measure than a dotted quarter note should be placed next to the BPM.
 
 
I've seen sheet music in cut time with a BPM of 85. No indication that a half note represented each beat. In this case it was obvious but why not make it perfectly clear?
 
 
As far as 'Nothing Else Matters' if I were writing that lead sheet today I would use a dotted quarter note with an equal sign and a BPM of 48.
 

or try doing something in 7/8 and having to remember this:
 
In some projects you may need a different timebase. For example, if you wanted to use eighth-note septuplets (7 eighth notes per quarter note) and represent them accurately, you would need to have a timebase that is divisible by 7, such as 168PPQ. SONAR uses the timebase you choose for a project to determine the range of tick values in the Now time.
http://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation/default.aspx?Doc=SONAR%20X2&Lang=EN&Req=Recording.09.html

cubase handles timing pretty much the same as sonar.  this is a good vid to measure the timing with...
 
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Video_of_6o8_at_90_bpm.ogv

Another thought: if DAW's define tempo differently as established above, then how does this relate to using tempo based effects like delay? 
 

hey sharke...  i think i got a way to explain this to you...
 
basically what is happening is that sonar and cubase et al are seeing 6/8 time but there is still that (RIGID) part of the program that (especially in snap settings) sees a "beat" as a quarter note.  so, because a beat is really an eighth note in this signature, when you set snap settings or draw 8th notes, what you're really drawing is 16th notes... you need to set snap settings to quarter notes to test this out.  
take a file, set the time sig to 6/8 at 90bpm.  open prv on a midi track and set snap settings to a quarter note. 
draw a quarter note in then copy it and paste special 89 times.  scroll to the end of the midi notes and you'll notice the end time is 1:00.  
So, because sonar always sees a beat as a quarter note, that means that the measure display numbers are off as well, and 2 measures really make up one. 
 
jeez math sucks sometimes...
 
 

that's one of the frigging things that always bugged me about rapture and z3ta+ because y'know how you can synch lfo's to the beat right?? well a 1 in the sync dropdowns isn't a whole note, it's a beat. so in 4/4 time, a half is an eighth, and a quarter is a 16th and an eighth is a 32nd.  drove me nuts until i rtfm'd it.  ;)

I have sent several feature requests to Sonar over the past couple of years, asking for Step Sequencer to be able to deal with a non-quarter meter base, as well, to no avail.
 
It drives me absolutely NUTS to have to create clips of what should be 6/8 in Step Sequencer instead as clips of 6/4 - where I then have to also DOUBLE the song's tempo to get things to play back correctly.
 
Worse still is that MANY of the songs I sequence up have a multitude of odd time signatures, so I end up with CRAZY tempo maps and things that while they sound right are going back and forth from taking the right amount of measures to all of a sudden needing TWO measures instead of one to represent the notes, due to having to have a quarter note in the meter base rather than the desired EIGHTH note.  I then have to mark up printed scores like an AMATEUR to explain why the measure numbers and notation are wrong.
 
I know that the odd-meter folks are a small subset of the Cakewalk universe, but really, this stuff is aggravating and I wish it would get some attention in development.  PLEASE???????
 
It has gotten to the point where I just keep putting off sequencing up songs, because I KNOW how many hoops I will have to go through to keep the tempos changing from doubled to normal and all of the above.  One of the things I am trying to do is create sequenced midi versions of some really complex progressive/fusion tunes, and to have to put them out there on the web KNOWING they all have this embedded nonsense in them really frustrates me to no end.
 
Here is one nightmarish example: I have a song snippet, which is a cyclic repeating rhythmic pattern of one measure of each of the following - 4/4, 7/8, 4/4, 5/8 then the pattern repeats.  The song has arpeggio acoustic guitar notes.  To enter that in Sonar's Step Sequencer, I have to enter the first measure at 4/4, then double the tempo and insert a meter change to 7/4, then return the tempo to normal and insert a meter change back to 4/4, then insert another tempo change to double it again and insert a meter change to 5/4.  Can you IMAGINE what playing along with a click track to that sounds like?
 
Soooooooo, Mr Sharke - I COMPLETELY feel your pain.  If ANYONE has a better workaround, I am all ears (I suppose it would be all eyes, since I would be reading the responses).
 
Bob Bone
 

robert_e_bone
I have sent several feature requests to Sonar over the past couple of years, asking for Step Sequencer to be able to deal with a non-quarter meter base, as well, to no avail.
 
It drives me absolutely NUTS to have to create clips of what should be 6/8 in Step Sequencer instead as clips of 6/4 - where I then have to also DOUBLE the song's tempo to get things to play back correctly.
 
Worse still is that MANY of the songs I sequence up have a multitude of odd time signatures, so I end up with CRAZY tempo maps and things that while they sound right are going back and forth from taking the right amount of measures to all of a sudden needing TWO measures instead of one to represent the notes, due to having to have a quarter note in the meter base rather than the desired EIGHTH note.  I then have to mark up printed scores like an AMATEUR to explain why the measure numbers and notation are wrong.
 
I know that the odd-meter folks are a small subset of the Cakewalk universe, but really, this stuff is aggravating and I wish it would get some attention in development.  PLEASE???????
 
It has gotten to the point where I just keep putting off sequencing up songs, because I KNOW how many hoops I will have to go through to keep the tempos changing from doubled to normal and all of the above.  One of the things I am trying to do is create sequenced midi versions of some really complex progressive/fusion tunes, and to have to put them out there on the web KNOWING they all have this embedded nonsense in them really frustrates me to no end.
 
Here is one nightmarish example: I have a song snippet, which is a cyclic repeating rhythmic pattern of one measure of each of the following - 4/4, 7/8, 4/4, 5/8 then the pattern repeats.  The song has arpeggio acoustic guitar notes.  To enter that in Sonar's Step Sequencer, I have to enter the first measure at 4/4, then double the tempo and insert a meter change to 7/4, then return the tempo to normal and insert a meter change back to 4/4, then insert another tempo change to double it again and insert a meter change to 5/4.  Can you IMAGINE what playing along with a click track to that sounds like?
 
Soooooooo, Mr Sharke - I COMPLETELY feel your pain.  If ANYONE has a better workaround, I am all ears (I suppose it would be all eyes, since I would be reading the responses).
 
Bob Bone
 

Wow that sounds like a real pain in the ass Bob, not sure I would have the patience to deal with that crap. It's outrageous really - for all of their talk about Sonar (and other DAW's) being designed with the musician in mind, it's not really the case is it? You spend hundreds of dollars on a piece of professional music software and you still have to hack things together like that. It's not just Sonar - I gave up looking into 3rd party drum sequencers like Maschine and Geist when I read about the trouble people were having getting time signatures other than 4/4 to work properly. Again, the same thing: workarounds and hacks which have you performing mental acrobatics. It's so ridiculous...I mean I know 4/4 is like the most popular rhythm and stuff but come on! Tempo and meter are two of the most fundamental elements of music so you'd expect a DAW to handle them correctly, as expected and without issues. 

robert_e_bone
 
I know that the odd-meter folks are a small subset of the Cakewalk universe, but really, this stuff is aggravating and I wish it would get some attention in development.  PLEASE???????
 If ANYONE has a better workaround, I am all ears (I suppose it would be all eyes, since I would be reading the responses).
 
Bob Bone
 

 
I write quite a bit using different & various meters. Sometimes I find it's easier just to keep it in 4/4 for recording or editing audio/ midi then add your markers/ time sigs after the fact.
 
Depends on who's involved, drummers typically chart it themselves using their own methods anyway. It can be different than what's written or transcribed.

swamptooth
problem is using 6/4 time, you won't be able to use pre-recorded or canned midi content that was put together in 6/8 like loops that come with drum packages and construction kits, etc... 

And what about software like Jamstix, what if it defines the tempo of 6/8 in terms of eighths? Another ordeal...

No it does not, you are not hearing it right. The metronome is clicking the eight notes not the quarter notes now. The tempo stays the same, you are just not feeling or hearing it correctly. Studio One actually handles all this the best.
 
Set up a 3/4 time sig and and feel the tempo. Now set up 6/8 and tempo does not change, instead the metronome gives you 6 eighth note clicks now instead of 3 quarter clicks. Make sure your accented click is louder than the others too so you can still hear where '1' is. (or better still change the sound for the accented note and you will hear nothing has changed tempo wise just the number of metronome clicks has doubled)
 
I could do a piece easily that Bob may be talking about and change the time sig anywhere along the timeline. And the tempo will either remain constant but the metronome will change at the time sig changes or you could go one further and change the tempo as well. I must admit though I am  not sure how it would handle all the 4/4 loops in this scenario though, have not tried that.
 
BTW that video that demonstrates how 6/8 can be counted is nice except it is only good if the number of eigths are even. What happens when the number of eigths are odd eg 7/8. There are various ways 7 (eigth notes) can be subdivided so I like the Studio One approach of keeping all the eigths the same. That way you can subdivide them anyway you want.

You are still doing something wrong. I have just done what you suggest and I still get the same number of eigth notes, the tempo remains the same and the piece is still the same length.The only thing that changes is the number of metronome clicks per bar, as it should.
 
Not sure what you are actually doing.
 
Lets have a look. You say you are inserting 60 eigth notes into a 6/8 time sig. OK that means there should 6 of those per bar correct. 10 bars all up. At 60 BPM you are hearing 3 seconds per bar so that takes 30 seconds. You are feeling this now in 6/8 time. Metronome however is clicking 6 times per bar though. eg on each eigth note.
 
Now switch to 3/4 time and insert 6 eight notes. Musically you are hearing the same thing and tempo has not changed. Except the metronome is only clicking 3 per bar. Still 10 bars, 3 seconds per bar and total of 30 seconds. And you are feeling this now in 3/4 rather than 6/8 above. (different)
 
 

Really wish someone at Cake would chime in and clarify this btw!