MickyD
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Console Channel Emulator Type S, N, A Opinions
Hi everyone,
I'm mixing down several country ballads featuring piano, steel guitar, bass and acoustic guitars. I'd like opinions on which emulator type you would use in this situation at mixdown.
Thanks. :-)
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WallyG
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Re: Console Channel Emulator Type S, N, A Opinions
2013/11/22 11:39:42
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MickyD
Hi everyone,
I'm mixing down several country ballads featuring piano, steel guitar, bass and acoustic guitars. I'd like opinions on which emulator type you would use in this situation at mixdown.
Thanks. :-)
I would also be interested in hearing some opinions on this subject. I just added the Console Emulator using Type "A" to a 20 track project just for giggles. With my tired hearing I didn't think I would hear any differences. I put the emulators in a group so I could switch them ON/Off. I was pleasantly surprised how much of a difference they made! I would just recommend "Puttsing" around with the three options and check out the differences. Please report back. Walt
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John T
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Re: Console Channel Emulator Type S, N, A Opinions
2013/11/22 11:52:32
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☄ Helpfulby FreeFlyBertl 2013/11/23 04:06:23
Well... S-type is modelled on SSL consoles, N-Type on Neve, and A-Type on Trident. All of these desks have been used to mix any and all genres you can think of. Also, you're talking about a country-ish set of instruments, but that could cover anything from Shania Twain to The Gaslight Anthem.
Better to think in terms of the kind of sonic character you're after. This is all fairly subtle, but the A-Type is sort of warmer and more bottom-end-y, where the S-Type is typically sort of brighter, with the N-Type somewhere in between. Really, you need to do some experimenting, there's no real prescription for this stuff. To my mind, it's more useful in terms of what you find easiest to mix with. I get along best with the S-Type, whatever the material is.
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dubdisciple
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Re: Console Channel Emulator Type S, N, A Opinions
2013/11/22 12:06:48
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IMHO..and I am by no means a console expert, I think S-type is the safe bet for most styles and that is probably why it is the default choice. I have experimented with others , but I find the S type seems more "sparkly" overall. If i want to warm it more, I can always dial it down or address during mastering stage. I have used the N type for a few electronica and hip-hop tracks.
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TS
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Re: Console Channel Emulator Type S, N, A Opinions
2013/11/22 14:25:50
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MickyD
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Re: Console Channel Emulator Type S, N, A Opinions
2013/11/22 15:59:12
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Thanks for the quick input! What I saw on the graphs at the cross referenced thread bears out what I'm hearing when I try all three. I find the S type seems to give a more "live" performance audio, while the others could be very effective when mixing down for an album - if that makes sense.
I like all of them actually; I guess it depends on the "vibe" one wishes to create.
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BenMMusTech
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Re: Console Channel Emulator Type S, N, A Opinions
2013/11/22 16:29:55
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Get your headphones, hopefully they are fairly good and just shut your eyes and listen. Use one track and turn each of the three emulators on and off. Train your ears to hear the difference, then choose the one that is right. Personally for me, I use all three across a mix, including the buss emulators too. In this way I use the emulators as a bit of sheen but I am not dictated to by the notion that an SSL emulation across a mix because of the genre of music is correct.
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MickyD
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Re: Console Channel Emulator Type S, N, A Opinions
2013/11/22 17:18:30
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BenMMusTech
Get your headphones, hopefully they are fairly good and just shut your eyes and listen. Use one track and turn each of the three emulators on and off. Train your ears to hear the difference, then choose the one that is right. Personally for me, I use all three across a mix, including the buss emulators too. In this way I use the emulators as a bit of sheen but I am not dictated to by the notion that an SSL emulation across a mix because of the genre of music is correct.
That's a really good idea. But, I thought it's necessary to use the same type emulators across the entire mix. If not, and the emulators still work well - it's great idea to use whichever emulator gives the best sound per channel and buss. In the Sonar X2 Power book, the section on using the emulators seems to imply the same type needs to be used all across the mix. I will give it a try though and see how it comes together. Thanks!
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dubdisciple
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Re: Console Channel Emulator Type S, N, A Opinions
2013/11/22 17:18:53
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BenMMusTech
Get your headphones, hopefully they are fairly good and just shut your eyes and listen. Use one track and turn each of the three emulators on and off. Train your ears to hear the difference, then choose the one that is right. Personally for me, I use all three across a mix, including the buss emulators too. In this way I use the emulators as a bit of sheen but I am not dictated to by the notion that an SSL emulation across a mix because of the genre of music is correct.
I don't think anyone (at least I hope) thinks any of those modes are tethered to a certain genre. I think most of us agree tha tall three modes could be used with any genre. With that said, if one knows a particular piece of music contains elements that would benefit from the characteristics of one versus the other in an obvious way it helps. It's no different in theory than certain audio engineers preferring to use certain consoles for recording one type of music than the other.
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BenMMusTech
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Re: Console Channel Emulator Type S, N, A Opinions
2013/11/22 17:37:44
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dubdisciple
BenMMusTech
Get your headphones, hopefully they are fairly good and just shut your eyes and listen. Use one track and turn each of the three emulators on and off. Train your ears to hear the difference, then choose the one that is right. Personally for me, I use all three across a mix, including the buss emulators too. In this way I use the emulators as a bit of sheen but I am not dictated to by the notion that an SSL emulation across a mix because of the genre of music is correct.
I don't think anyone (at least I hope) thinks any of those modes are tethered to a certain genre. I think most of us agree tha tall three modes could be used with any genre. With that said, if one knows a particular piece of music contains elements that would benefit from the characteristics of one versus the other in an obvious way it helps. It's no different in theory than certain audio engineers preferring to use certain consoles for recording one type of music than the other.
Well your faith in humanity and audio engineers is better than mine!! But there are times when you would use one console emulation for particular genres or songs. For instance if you were a queen/type prog rock band circa 1973-5 you would use the trident emulator because those queen records were mixed and recorded on a trident. And the same could be said of queen circa 1984-91 when they probably used a SSL (I'd have to look this up, I'm not a 100% sure of this). So if you were after a particular sound then you would use these emulators across the mix. Lets hope that Cake, do a couple of Redd emulators (Beatles&Floyd) for the pro channel. These are the holy grail mixing desks!! Ben
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dubdisciple
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Re: Console Channel Emulator Type S, N, A Opinions
2013/11/22 18:03:00
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It's not so much faith in people, but faith in "monkey see monkey do". I'm sure nothing is hurt by mixing emulation modes on differentr mnodels. i think Cakewalk recommends using the same mode on call channels and buses is based on trying to be as true to the emulation if that is your goal. In a word where remote collaboration is easier, songs that have material recorded on multiple consoles, hybrid settings may make sense.
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lawajava
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Re: Console Channel Emulator Type S, N, A Opinions
2013/11/22 20:19:15
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Great discussion. I learned something from you folks, I think. I've been going by ear, but there seems to be some method to the madness, so I've picked up some ideas here to try.
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mudgel
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Re: Console Channel Emulator Type S, N, A Opinions
2013/11/22 21:20:26
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I use it as an opportunity to emulate a mixing console I don't have access to. Because of that I prefer the S type. As I would love to be using the SSL desk it's modeled on. That being the case I wouldn't be changing desks mid project or from track to track. Use me and stick to it for any project but in my case every project I just leave the S type as my default.
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2:43AM
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Re: Console Channel Emulator Type S, N, A Opinions
2013/11/22 21:26:46
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Do these console emulators do anything more than just tweak frequency responses? I noticed that all the Tolerance button seems to do is roll off 16-20kHz frequencies by about -1dB.
Per Cakewalk, these channel emulators can operate somewhat randomly when used on many tracks because they all interact with each other differently. Seems interesting, if it is true. Therefore, frequency response is affected, but randomly per project.
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Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: Console Channel Emulator Type S, N, A Opinions
2013/11/23 04:25:06
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2:43AM
Per Cakewalk, these channel emulators can operate somewhat randomly when used on many tracks because they all interact with each other differently. Seems interesting, if it is true. Therefore, frequency response is affected, but randomly per project.
That kind of information I was actually after, but couldn't find it. Anyone have a link? I know WAVES NLS modelled many different channels from these famous consoles and they automatically insert a different channel model with every instance of the plug (i.e. like on the real consoles every channel will be slightly different and hence not imprinting the same freq response on each channel which makes a lot of sense to me) ... Yet I still don't know if the PC console emu does something like this ... and if it does, is it random (which would sort of a 'cheap' trick) or based on physical models of various channels?
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BluerecordingStudios
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Re: Console Channel Emulator Type S, N, A Opinions
2013/11/23 10:03:23
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I tested Cake's console emulations and compared it to NLS and Slate about year ago. Definitely Cake's emus are good enough for me especially on Neve settings. I dont need other options for now.
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AT
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Re: Console Channel Emulator Type S, N, A Opinions
2013/11/23 10:17:19
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IRock
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Re: Console Channel Emulator Type S, N, A Opinions
2013/11/23 11:55:22
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2:43AM
Per Cakewalk, these channel emulators can operate somewhat randomly when used on many tracks because they all interact with each other differently. Seems interesting, if it is true. Therefore, frequency response is affected, but randomly per project.
Edit: quote didn't work from FreeFlyBertl's post #15 so removed. Hi All, I have been playing with the console emulator the last week and Craig Anderton has a good video on the Console Emulator posted on youtube. Check out the X3 Users Reference Guide Pg. 1029 Tolerance "simulates the component tolerances of the bus circuits". It sounds like this adds some variantion to how the each console sounds in the tracks/buses.
post edited by IRock - 2013/11/23 12:30:39
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2:43AM
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Re: Console Channel Emulator Type S, N, A Opinions
2013/11/23 12:09:41
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☄ Helpfulby dubdisciple 2013/11/24 00:10:09
IRock
That kind of information I was actually after, but couldn't find it. Anyone have a link?
Here you go. I got the information from the Cakewalk Documentation page. http://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation/default.aspx?Doc=SONAR%20X2&Lang=EN&Req=ProChannel.8.html I also suggest running some pink noise through a track and testing the various console emulators and tolerance buttons. Use a spectrum analyzer after the ProChannels to see the output. Maybe there's more to it, but at first glance, the effect on the noise is quite small. It seems like EQ would do the same thing, though less automatic. Kind of like the Gloss button on the EQ; hit it once for an instant, high-end, air boost!  I still think that, just like only hardware can provide, a console emulator whose randomly generated effect is cross-talk, a super-high noise floor with severe hiss, and a dull 60-cycle hum. Now that would be sweet! 
post edited by 2:43AM - 2013/11/23 12:56:45
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IRock
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Re: Console Channel Emulator Type S, N, A Opinions
2013/11/23 12:37:11
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Thanks for the web link 2:43AM.
I was looking at the PDF version on my DAW which is not connected to the internet when I posted.
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Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: Console Channel Emulator Type S, N, A Opinions
2013/11/23 15:49:00
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IRock
Check out the X3 Users Reference Guide Pg. 1029 Tolerance "simulates the component tolerances of the bus circuits". It sounds like this adds some variantion to how the each console sounds in the tracks/buses.
ok. that seems to make sense. and it's stored with the project, so whatever is random is only random initially.
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Anderton
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Re: Console Channel Emulator Type S, N, A Opinions
2013/11/23 23:42:16
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Two tips:
1. Remember "quick grouping" when you want to add or change modules, or change console emulator settings.
2. I did some audio geekery of my own, and found that the CEs also emulate some of the characteristics of audio transformers. In the graphs referenced earlier, you can see the increased distortion at the lower frequencies for the A- and S-types that's characteristic of some transformers.
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smallstonefan
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Re: Console Channel Emulator Type S, N, A Opinions
2013/12/04 17:08:46
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+1 on what Ben said - Redd console for that Pink Floyd influence. And do it BEFORE I buy Wave's REDD please! :)
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Maarkr
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Re: Console Channel Emulator Type S, N, A Opinions
2013/12/04 21:18:21
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I just did a country mix and used the S type. My bass was full and slightly modulated so I thought the S would keep the mix bright. I then used some tape emulator on the master, then spread it slightly with the BT spatial. Nice. I like many of the new vsts in X3. For a clean, tight country mix, I may try it but I don't know if I would notice a difference between consoles?
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bladetragic
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Re: Console Channel Emulator Type S, N, A Opinions
2013/12/04 21:54:07
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I tried the console emulator a few times and found that after playing with it, trying different settings, and even doing a couple of full mixes with it, that in most cases I preferred it off. I've found it to be better used as more of a saturation type of plugin on certain sounds here and there similar to the Softube Sat Knob.
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