shawn@trustmedia.tv

pwal


in the uk only girls have fannies we also smoke fags...

One of the weirdest differences is a TRIILION, 10^12 in America, 10^18 in the UK...strange, George Bush was very bad at math I bet...

Yeah: he thought a Brazillian was a very big number

Twigman

Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]

Twigman
No I disagree.
English is the language of the English ;-) anything else is NOT English.
Americans use words in the wrong context to mean something other than what they mean so they are not speaking English.
They may be speaking 'American' but last time I looked the language of Sonar and this forum is supposedly English.
I believe many Americans think they speak English but get it so hopelessly wrong.
Here are some pointers to help out our misguided cousins:
http://www.bg-map.com/us-uk.html

http://septicscompanion.com/

http://englishclub.8m.com/ukus1.htm

http://www.effingpot.com/

So it's a joke then? (and a long running one at that). Canadians speak Canadian. The Irish speak Irish, etc? Or is it Canadian English?

All I'm saying is Americans don't speak English, they think they do but it is really American, it ceased to be English long ago - they wouldn't purport to be English anymore than i would suggest I am American so why hang on to calling the language they speak English? It's not anymore.

And why all the hostility when I point out that words like fanny mean something completely different in English than American?

The Irish speak Gaelic by the way.

No hostility about "fanny" as it is absolutely true. I cringe a little when I hear Americans unknowingly say "fanny pack" in the presence of British. The problem is that American's do speak English and it's not really debatable from a purely factual standpoint - it's a linguistic fact. Perhaps one could be needlessly pedantic and always refer to it as "American English" to be "extra-factual", but to say Americans do not speak English, and mean it, is simply...well...wrong.

Regarding the Irish: What is it they are speaking then when they are not speaking Geallic? Why can i understand the Irish and yet I don't understand Gaelic? It must be my Babblefish. And why do I understand Canadians when they obviously don't speak "American"? Many Latin Americans don't speak Spanish?

The problem is that AFAIK linguists don't think there is a language called "American" - although some Americans are sure there is. But they also think people speak "Mexican" so....

> Stuff it in the Boot !! wheres the patch !!! Downloading!

Twigman

All I'm saying is Americans don't speak English, they think they do but it is really American, it ceased to be English long ago - they wouldn't purport to be English anymore than i would suggest I am American so why hang on to calling the language they speak English? It's not anymore.

And why all the hostility when I point out that words like fanny mean something completely different in English than American?

The Irish speak Gaelic by the way.

Well having apologized, I will point out that this is a milder position than you originally took, which led somewhat to my flying off the handle. 

Here's your original statement (emphasis mine):

Americans use words in the wrong context to mean something other than what they meanso they are not speaking English. 
They may be speaking 'American' but last time I looked the language of Sonar and this forum is supposedly English. 
I believe many Americans think they speak English but get it so hopelessly wrong. 
Here are some pointers to help out our misguided cousins: 

... this is a bit more heavy-handed than just insisting that it's a different language and should have a different name. I agree that the name is a problem, though I don't agree that any current variant is different enough to be called another language. With regards to the American version, you could probably make a reasonable case for calling it a different dialect, but a whole other language? Hardly. I can communicate with them and with you, without a translator. Same language, different usage. That's all. Really. And it's OK, no-one's threatening you. And it's been pointed out before that Cakewalk is an American company and this is their forum, so it's bad manners to jump up and down insisting that they use your version of the language. 

In any case, rational arguments have been advanced for changing the name of the whole wobbly boat to Globish, among other suggestions, to alleviate this confusion and reflect the fact that it has dramatically outgrown the connection with a single country. I don't expect you'll like that suggestion, but there it is. I didn't make it up. 


Also, the vast majority of Irish people speak English in day-to-day parlance. Most that do still speak the original language refer to it as Irish, not Gaelic. Here's some statistics on the breakdown:

Most Irish people have some words of Irish, as it is a compulsory school subject. 

In the last census, in 2006, 41.9% of the population said they speak Irish to some extent. 



Around 10% are fluent speakers. Estimates suggest it is the first language of around 2 or 3% of the population. 




Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_percentage_of_people_in_Ireland_speak_Gaelic#ixzz1HFSuBx00

Twigman

Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]

Twigman

Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]

Twigman
No I disagree.
English is the language of the English ;-) anything else is NOT English.
Americans use words in the wrong context to mean something other than what they mean so they are not speaking English.
They may be speaking 'American' but last time I looked the language of Sonar and this forum is supposedly English.
I believe many Americans think they speak English but get it so hopelessly wrong.
Here are some pointers to help out our misguided cousins:
http://www.bg-map.com/us-uk.html

http://septicscompanion.com/

http://englishclub.8m.com/ukus1.htm

http://www.effingpot.com/

So it's a joke then? (and a long running one at that). Canadians speak Canadian. The Irish speak Irish, etc? Or is it Canadian English?

All I'm saying is Americans don't speak English, they think they do but it is really American, it ceased to be English long ago - they wouldn't purport to be English anymore than i would suggest I am American so why hang on to calling the language they speak English? It's not anymore.

And why all the hostility when I point out that words like fanny mean something completely different in English than American?

The Irish speak Gaelic by the way.

No hostility about "fanny" as it is absolute true. I cringe a little when I hear Americans unknowingly say "fanny pack" in the presence of British. The problem is that American's DO speak English and it's not really debatable from a purely factual standpoint - it's a linguistic fact. Perhaps one could be needlessly pedantic and always refer to it as "American English" to be "extra-factual", but to say Americans do not speak English, and mean it, is simply...well...wrong.

Regarding the Irish: What is it they are speaking then when they are not speaking Geallic? Why can i understand the Irish and yet I don't understand Gaelic? It must be my Babblefish. And why do I understand Canadians when they obviously don't speak "American"? Many Latin American don't speak Spanish?

The problem is that AFAIK linguitsis don't think there is a language called "American" - although some Americans are sure there is.

Much of the time I can honestly say I don't understand Americans.
I know that they don't understand me.
The number of times I've been looked at blankly by noncomprehending Americans is astounding.
If I was to ask an American " Can I bum a fag off you? " what are the chances I would get a smack in the face?

I think the meanings and grammar have evolved significantly apart so that the language used in America is so far from the language used in England that it can no longer realistically be called English.

The language the Irish use when they are not speaking Gaelic is Irish-English or Hibernian

Yes there are some big differences for sure. But, for the most part, I think it's only some of the vocabulary that has changed. But that's true even as you travel around different areas of a particular country purportedly speaking the same language. The underlying grammatical constructs are still the same (some of which pre-date English BTW). I mean if you and I speak different languages how are we able to communicate at this very moment?

The problem I would suggest with saying that Americans and others don't speak English is that it leaves those people without a recognized language and suggests that the way they speak is somehow "incorrect". Same for Spanish speaking countries that are not Spanish, etc.

subtlearts


e because you're not speaking English. 'Bum a fag' is street slang. I know you folks use it all the time, but it's ALSO NOT ENGLISH.

Of course it's English

It's not Swahili is it?

FFS - if it is used 'all the time' it is part of the language.

:rolleyes:

Twigman

subtlearts


e because you're not speaking English. 'Bum a fag' is street slang. I know you folks use it all the time, but it's ALSO NOT ENGLISH.

Of course it's English

It's not Swahili is it?

FFS - if it is used 'all the time' it is part of the language.

:rolleyes:

Aha, now we're getting somewhere. The different ways we say things in different English-speaking countries, being "used all the time", are therefore "part of the language". 


I don't give you good odds here mate. But keep trying. 

Twigman

subtlearts

Twigman

subtlearts


e because you're not speaking English. 'Bum a fag' is street slang. I know you folks use it all the time, but it's ALSO NOT ENGLISH.

Of course it's English

It's not Swahili is it?

FFS - if it is used 'all the time' it is part of the language.

:rolleyes:

Aha, now we're getting somewhere. The different ways we say things in different English-speaking countries, being "used all the time", are therefore "part of the language". 


I don't give you good odds here mate. But keep trying. 

LOL

but the language of the people of England must remain the 'control' as English means of England and the people of England....anything else becomes something else, not English, since it is no longer the language of the people of England.

So Americans may have started out speaking English when the first settlers arrived but their language evolved differently and thus is no longer English as the people of England (the English) understand it....it has become something else, something other than English whereas in England the language has evolved differently but it can still claim to be English since it is the language spoken by the people of England.

:-)

"has become something else"...but what? And when did it officially cross the line? You see what a slippery slope this is?

I don't know...I think most people in England think Americans and Australians and Canadians speak English. I could be wrong but I think if you did a poll I'd be right. The only thing I can think of would be to put the country name in front of "English" or "Spanish" to denote the variation (i.e. Canadian English, etc). But it seems unnecessary, as again we understand each other. As Mexicans understand Colombians as they understand Spanish people and so on.

If we use your logic then each country (and maybe even region) should have its own language. It's not a sustainable (or particularly necessary) system - which is probably why it's not done. Even in America, pronunciation and vocabulary vary from region to region and state to state - and sometimes quite widely (depending on your scale). Do people in Kentucky speak Kentuckian? Do mid-westerners speak "mid-western? I think the problem we have here is the use of the word "language" when it really doesn't apply.

What happens when English pick up American-isms? Are they by default English then? Or are English speaking American.

Anyway, not that I want the last word but we've probably hijacked this thread long enough. If we want to continue much more we should probably start a thread in the CH. Otherwise I'll have to ban myself.

Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]


If we use your logic then each country (and maybe even region) should have its own language.

They do:

In Newcastle they speak Geordie
In Sunderland they speak Mackem
In Birmingham they speak Brummy
In Liverpool they speak Scouse
In Manchester they speak Scally/Manc
In East London they speak Cockney
In Southend (Sarfend) they speak Estuary
etc etc etc

All these towns and cities are in England yet each has its own language that is not English but is derived from English.

Twigman

Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]


If we use your logic then each country (and maybe even region) should have its own language.

They do:

In Newcastle they speak Geordie
In Sunderland they speak Mackem
In Birmingham they speak Brummy
In Liverpool they speak Scouse
In Manchester they speak Scally/Manc
In East London they speak Cockney
In Southend (Sarfend) they speak Estuary
etc etc etc

All these towns and cities are in England yet each has its own language that is not English but is derived from English.

No they don't. The error here is that those are not languages - they are dialects of the same language. There's a big difference.

Don't take my word for it...

From Wikipedia: Estuary English is a dialect of English widely spoken in South East England, especially along the River Thames and its estuary.

So I guess if you want to concede that Americans speak a dialect of the English language then we can all nod and then cheerfully stuff some fags into our fanny packs.

Twigman

but the language of the people of England must remain the 'control' as English means of England and the people of England....anything else becomes something else, not English, since it is no longer the language of the people of England. 

This is just hilarious, and too silly to really respond to. You want to try to 'control' how other people speak English, go ahead... and good luck... well, not so much, but it's not going to happen. You want to prevent other people from stating, correctly, in English, that the language they speak and use every day is English, just because you don't like them speaking it that way and naming it after your country? Again, go ahead, but you won't get far. 


You should be proud and happy that the language that developed into modern form in your fine but on a global scale (in both size and population) tiny island nation, has gone so far and become such an international standard. Discounting, of course, the in large part ugly colonialist history that led to that being the case. But insisting on exclusive control and rights to the name? Must be an interesting fantasy land you live in. 

Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk

Anyway, not that I want the last word but we've probably hijacked this thread long enough. If we want to continue much more we should probably start a thread in the CH. Otherwise I'll have to ban myself.

LOL. OK I'm out. It's been a treat, thanks for playing!

Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]

I think most people in England think Americans and Australians and Canadians speak English.

I don't know if we should go so far as including the Australians. Let's be reasonable about this. ;-)

If we use your logic then each country (and maybe even region) should have its own language. It's not a sustainable (or particularly necessary) system - which is probably why it's not done.

Indeed. Languages do not follow national borders. Never have, never will.

I would also like to point out that now more people speak English as their second language than people as their primary language. That is sure to have a major influence on the future of the language as a whole.

UnderTow

I love these arguments.

Nobody can win.

But hey I've got other things to do.

I just thought it was amusing that a bloke claimed to have a fanny.


He should do porn.

Twigman


Oh and since when did wikepedia become the purveyor of facts?


There are so many innaccurate entries in wikidedia.

There are inaccuracies in any repository of facts. Nature even did a comparative research to compare it to Encyclopaedia Britannica: http://www.nature.com/nat...7070/full/438900a.html

UnderTow

I've had a number of friends and colleagues over the years from England and Scotland who enjoy poking fun at me and my fellow 'trans-Atlantic' English speakers

Since when have the jocks ever spoken English? Most that I know would find that suggestion insulting