Beepster


hmm... now this might show my lack of formal training but why exactly do both staves have a bass clef? I've never seen that.

For two reasons:

1) When you have a tune in which both hands are very involved (ie: A Bach Fugue - and you'll see on the sheet music), or for instance Beethoven's Fur Elise and Moonlight Sonata, the left hand doesn't always stay or rarely doesn't it go into the lower registers of the treble clef. This is the same reason the reverse is true where you see two treble clefs - you don't want anything too high in the bass clef again if the hands or very busy.

Having two of the same clefs also tells you which hand to use (unless cross-beaming is used)

For a much simpler take the tune "Three Blind Mice."

Treble Clef: E-D-C / E-D-C / G-F-E / G-F-E
Bass Clef: C-B-G / C-B-G / E-D-C / E-D-C

This isn't too bad because we don't have many notes if any that are too high or too low in either clef and if you decide to play with both hands, you know which hand does what. This is different than going C-G-C ... in the bass clef's lower registers where it's obvious what hand does what.

Having said this, let's use that exact C-G-C ... line, but move the notes from the treble clef to the bass clef - in the same register. The upper notes would be too high (ie: The G being moved from the second line in the treble clef, is now on the third ledger line above the the bass clef. Not many want to read notes that high up or that far down if this were the treble clef. For instance, the D (a m7 below Middle C) is also on the third line in the bass clef (G-B-D]/B]-F-A), so why not put it there? Answer: You can, but if the tne were written for the bass clef only.

This is why we have octava or 8va + 8vb renditions of said clefs because again, no performer wants to read notes too high or lown in a piece of music. 8va = means play an octave above what it is written (and the symbol spells it out: 8v = Octave + a = above) Likewise, with 8vb - an octave below (8v = Octave, b = below). Though we have the ability to transpose music in software, either are both symbols are needed in written music - even though if what it's written for has the obvious range (IOW, people take that for granted) Sometimes you may see 15va or 15vb = two octaves above or below what's written (and 15 is correct as there are 15 tones within two octaves - not 16)

Which leads into orchestration and writing out for instruments considering their ranges. I won't get into that, but know that is why.

Here's an example of what's happens when you evoke an octava clef: Take the C Major scale starting on Middle C. When there's no sign, it sounds and is played as written. (Middle C up to the space between B and D in the treble clef) We can get the same thing in the bass clef, but we must also evoke the 8va sign. The common misconception is the "reservation." ie: 8va for the treble clef, 8vb for the bass clef. While this how such is seen, you can swap which what we'll do here: 

8va (Bass Clef) Same C Major scale starting on the space between B and D; however, we'll still end up on Middle C. When it is played, due to the 8va sign, it'll sound like it was when we wrote it in the treble clef - on the bass clef, but an octave higher If we started from Middle C in the bass clef - you'd choke like I'm about to explain using the treble clef below:

Going back to the Treble Clef for a moment, let's move the C Major scale up an octave (Middle C +12), We're already high enough, so this will end badly! 

The space above B (Treble clef) is C: here we go: Line (D), Space (E), Line (F), Space (G), Ledger Line (A), (You choking yet?) Space Above Ledger Line (B), Ledger Line #2 (C). I doubt you want this to continue.

Likewise, if this were in the bass clef (We'll be going in the opposite direction here) Starting on the second space (C), Line (B), Space (A), Line (G), Space (below staff) - (F), Ledger Line #1 - (E), Space below (D), Ledger Line #2 (C), Space (B), Ledger Line #3 (A) etc ... Most players don't wanna read bass notes below A (There's G, occasionally - Space below A) nor, do they wish to read two ledger lines above F (treble clef - this note would be C); therefore, evoke the 8vb sign. Note: The can be some low notes (barring a 8/15va + vb clef sign, but you must instinctively know or at least have a reference point. However, to save you more time, here's a short cut: For every note on a line, the note an octave above (8va) and below (8vb), will be on a space. For every note on a space, the 8va and 8vb notes will be on a line. (See above examples using the C scale) For  two octaves (15va + vb) notes will stay put (line on line, space on space.

This is helpful when you get into deciphering intervals - especially large ones (above the octave). This is called Octave Displacement which is what the 8 and 15va + vb symbols are doing.

To sum up, if you see two clefs, they are saying: "Which hand plays which line (when in the same register)," or they are keeping ledger lines to a minimum, so visibility is obtained for the performer. It isn't necessary to stick the octava signs to the clefs, but it is done so for the same reason. To maintain visibility for the performer (and prevent alot of unnecessary counting)

 I hope this helps, Beeps!

Beepster


I always enjoy your posts Rus... even if it takes me a while to parse them out. ;-)

Thanks, Beeps! (Not sure how 90% ended up bolded. I'll fix it.) You do understand (after parsing of course) Of course, all of what I wrote could be better understood through pictures.

EDIT: Fix'd!

Oh and I get the premise now in regards to handling various tessituras (just learned that word today... lol). For that specific blurb I was just trying to visualize it all which is difficult early in the morning... and well I'm screwing around on some news sites before digging back into the X2 manual.

Too much stuff to learn.

I was highly discouraged from becoming a musician by my family to the point guitars would be taken away as a punishment. They also canceled my guitar lessons right when I was about to begin classical training. Jerks.

Beepster


I was highly discouraged from becoming a musician by my family to the point guitars would be taken away as a punishment. They also canceled my guitar lessons right when I was about to begin classical training. Jerks.

Well, we all know what they say about the business - especially, in the composing/producing/performing part of it, but I think taking your gift away was abit too far. (Now, this wasn't because you were annoying them, was it? And be honest! haha!) I'd like to get into composing myself, but knowing I need a failsafe as well. (I bet this is what your parents were saying, but they should never discourage you from doing what you love)


And have you read Danny's story? Not sure what thread it's in, but long story short: His friend who didn't think he had it in him, showed Danny and quite a few others a thing or two!


When there's a will, there's a way or there is a way, but there must be a will.

Well said spacey. 

timidi


Well said spacey. 

*Echoes* Yeah, what a bang up job for rushing! (That's doesn't happen very often if ever)

Thanks spacey and everyone.

I'm lurking but my mind is elsewhere.

:-)

Be back soon.


best regards,
mike

I'd love to have more theory discussions on here once I'm "done" with all this tech studying. I've got a special way of looking at things. It all fits perfectly and chatting with traditionally trained fellows like Rus is always a little slice of music nerd pleasure.

spacey


 

Make sure you understand that D mixolydian contains the same notes as the key of "G". (which you know doesn't include a C#)
Should you "think" key of "D" then don't think mixolydian.

Thanks.

I understand what you are saying here... I know it didn't look like I did.


I understand that Modes are based on a relative key and that modes are not a key.


I don't fully understand the nuanced implications of misusing the terminology but I will try to use the terminology appropriately as I can see how it causes confusion for both myself and anyone attempting to help discuss it.






Off to the big post.


best,
mike

deleted.
I feel I was adding confusion.
 
It is very hard for me to recommend how you should proceed.
 
I think theory may best be learned where it can be applied and discussed about.
 
I really think it starts to look like a bunch of hard to read BS on a forum. I do hope you
understand.
If you're serious about learning it I'd recommend finding a teacher to spend some time with.
I thought it was worth the money and effort when I was young. I still do.

mike_mccue
Is my idea that songs have a "key" too simplistic and preventing me from making good use of the insights you have shared here? Perhaps I'm thinking about key with regard to melody when I should be thinking of song keys with regards to harmonized scales?

I feel as if I am not even sure how to ask the questions I need to be asking. :-)

Some of this depends on genre.

In a major key blues you are likely never going to play a major 7th interval, so you might be playing mixolydian over each (major) chord. Does this mean the key center is changing as you move from I-IV-V? Or is it all in the same key, but you are playing some notes that don't fit the key? Does it really matter?

In jazz theory, you tend to think less in terms of "key" than in matching the scales used to the chord changes. Jazz tends to have lots of chord substitutions where you're going to get notes that don't fit the key. But the chord tones for any given chord will outline a number of possible scales and you might use any of them, though some might work better with the previous or next chord better than others.

Essentially you can think of it as playing the chord tones plus some additional notes. For a scale with 7 different notes, a full 7th chord will tell you 4 of these 7 notes. The key, or the next or preceding chord - or your own creativity or desire - will tell you the other 3 notes. And you can also add chromatic passing tones as well - you just wouldn't want to hang out on those notes or play them on strong beats.

And keep in mind that the chord tones that "don't fit" are going to be the ones that specifically add color and that you thus might want to emphasize (unless you're the bass player that is ).

drewfx1


And keep in mind that the chord tones that "don't fit" are going to be the ones that specifically add color and that you thus might want to emphasize (unless you're the bass player that is ).

Interesting.  I took guitar lessons a long time ago from a fellow that had spent a year at Berklee.  He told me that one approach they used was to sort of turn the theory upside down and teach from a standpoint of "avoid tones" in musical styles.  He showed me their take on four types of scalar / chordal tones: those that fit perfectly but aren't interesting (1,3,5 scale tones) those that convey mood ( flat 3rd, 9th, 11th, etc) those that lead and / or add tension (sus, Maj 7) and those that, unless you're Ornette Coleman, will send people running for the exits.  Ornette is pretty colorful and interesting but not to everyone's taste since he usually uses 12 of the tones in each song.  The simpler the audience or your project the more tones you avoid.
 
   
I've really enjoyed this thread. 

drewfx1....In jazz theory, you tend to think less in terms of "key" than in matching the scales used to the chord changes.

Incorrect, in Jazz theory key centres are extremely important and vital. Especially when playing horizontally (melodically) through chord changes. What does happen in Jazz tunes is that keys do not remain constant and many keys are often employed within a single tune. eg a II V in one key then another II V in another key then maybe a III VI II V I in another key then  back to the first key for another II V etc. So when analysing these tunes, where all the key centres actually are is very important in terms of improvising.

One does not actually play vertically as drewfx1 suggests. (eg using the correct scale according to chord tones) That only sounds like someone is doing scale practice over chords, the finest jazz improvisers do not do that. Of course it is important to know what scale choices there over any given chord but ultimately that information is used to keep things in check while you are playing horizontally. There is no time to think too much when you are soloing.

I would say that drewfx1 is not an experienced Jazz musician. And drew if you are playing vertically you need to get out of that mode and start thinking melodically (horizontally) through a Jazz solo, not vertically. For this to work key centres are vital. It is also much easier! 

Jeff Evans


drewfx1....In jazz theory, you tend to think less in terms of "key" than in matching the scales used to the chord changes.

Incorrect, in Jazz theory key centres are extremely important and vital. Especially when playing horizontally (melodically) through chord changes. What does happen in Jazz tunes is that keys do not remain constant and many keys are often employed within a single tune. eg a II V in one key then another II V in another key then maybe a III VI II V I in another key then  back to the first key for another II V etc. So when analysing these tunes, where all the key centres actually are is very important in terms of improvising.

One does not actually play vertically as drewfx1 suggests. (eg using the correct scale according to chord tones) That only sounds like someone is doing scale practice over chords, the finest jazz improvisers do not do that. Of course it is important to know what scale choices there over any given chord but ultimately that information is used to keep things in check while you are playing horizontally. There is no time to think too much when you are soloing.

I would say that drewfx1 is not an experienced Jazz musician. And drew if you are playing vertically you need to get out of that mode and start thinking melodically (horizontally) through a Jazz solo, not vertically. For this to work key centres are vital. It is also much easier! 

There are different ways of looking at or approaching the same things. Sometime different approaches lead to the same place; sometimes they lead elsewhere. Perhaps you are one who makes the mistake of confusing knowledge of the approach you happen to know and use with "the only (right) approach" 

If you open your mind to the idea that others may know things, you might learn something. Here's one place to start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chord-scale_system