D major scale melody on a G major staff

Some of you know, I'm a sound tech that is weak on music theory.



I've been working on a song I received as sheet music for piano and vocal melody.

It was written on a staff with a G major key signature so I transcribed it into MIDI and am playing the piano back using Kontakt.


I stumbled upon the idea, using my by ear approach, that the song can be accompanied with guitar melodies and bass playing in the D major scale. (There is a modulation in the song form and I use a little mixolydian box for a short spin that but I haven't really identified it yet... I just hit it by ear.)



I know some of you can explain exactly what's going on...and I will not understand a word of it.


Can anyone give me clue using real simple terms that my music hacker brain can handle? Why is a simple D major melody sitting on a G major staff?


Thanks.


best regards,
mike
 

You're probably not playing a C# in the alleged "D major scale".. Yes?

You said "box". I'm assuming typical guitar pentatonic patterns here which usually leave out major 7ths.

Beepster


Because it is probably in D Mixolydian which uses the same key sig as G. The only difference between the two scales is Mixo has a flatted seventh.  

Ah hah.


This suggests to me that the person scoring the original piano part had to choose one or the other sections to derive the staff key sig.




Thanks for the ah ha moment.


:-)




best regards,
mike

Yes, I was calling them Bb. (I know why that's not the naming convention but if you read the staff literally as I was doing, it looks like a flatted B) there are a few of those and then subsequent natural marks.


best,
mike

Yes total brain plow... There are flatted Bb notes but of course it has nothing to do with C#.

When I said I know why you aren't supposed to call a # a b I was referring to the convention of enharmonic nomenclature... but of course I had the example botched.

Goes to show you how dim my theory bulb burns.


FWIW when I said D major I was referring to the Ionian mode.




Babbling... long day today and an early morning tomorrow. Be back Friday.


best regards,
mike

mike_mccue


Yes total brain plow... There are flatted Bb notes but of course it has nothing to do with C#.

When I said I know why you aren't supposed to call a # a b I was referring to the convention of enharmonic nomenclature... but of course I had the example botched.

Goes to show you how dim my theory bulb burns.


FWIW when I said D major I was referring to the Ionian mode.




Babbling... long day today and an early morning tomorrow. Be back Friday.


best regards,
mike

Bb in D Ionian (Major Scale) would be bVI
Bb would be diatonic in D Aeolian (Natural Minor)
Bb would also appear in the harmonic and melodic minor (both parts) scales.

spacey

Rus W

spacey


The key signature does not mean that the tune stays in the signature key.

When you say "D major" that can be confusing because a D7 is a major but it is
referred to as  a 7th. ( 1-3-5-b7)
Should the "D" be indicated as a "D" or "D major 7th) then the tune may have changed keys ( key of A or D)
If it has not changed keys then it should be written as D7 (key of G).

Bb that you mention is confusing. Bb= A# so I'm not sure what you're talking about. "C" or "C#" in the melody with
the "D" chord may help you define the type of "D" chord and key.

I can explain this!


I'll see if I can decipher the other portion.

At the time, I wasn't sure he really meant Bb....I thought he wanted to know about playing
in the key of "D" while the tune was in "G" and we were limited to two notes ( C-C#) for the
theoritical clues....and explaination.
This tree is shooting branches out so fast....one could get an eye poked out.
 
Good luck Mike. I think the little free theory lessons offered on-line is just much safer.

Transposition purposes? No one has to stick to the key a song is in. If he's wondering how far down or up the sheet music would have to be transposed (if he was reading it) the answer would be up a perfect fifth (P5: G-D) or down a perfect fourth (P4: D-G). Of course, it also depends on the sonarity range of the song - specifically, the harmony because you don't want the transposed music to sound too high or too low. 


As for the theoretical clues, both C and C# are in tons of chords and all twelve keys; so, you'd have to come from another angle. What chord contains both notes? Lots of chords, so you have to narrow again. The question you have to ask yourself is: What scale degree often precedes I before a song begins? The answer is V. So, now you start figuring it out. If the song's in G, what's the V(7) of G? D7.


Again, if this is a question of transposing, you just have to know the interval relationship. If Mike wishes to play the song in D, knowing that D is either a P5 above or P4 below G, he'll have to shift the chords by the same interval. So, what's a fifth above and fourth bellow D? A. He'll have to play an A7 (in this case) since he's playing in D.


C-F-G7-C (That's in C) But he'd rather play it in A. How far is it from C-A or A-C? A major sixth or a minor third; therefore, shift the chords accordingly. Again, you could go either way, but to keep ears sane, you'd most likely wanna transpose down a minor third. When done, you get this: A-D-E7-A


I'm saying, I agree that you were limited, but not as much as you thought.


Given the title of this thread, something to note. By G Major staff, I take it, Mike means the key signature. If so, there will be one sharp, F#. However, the D Major scale and corresponding key signature has two sharps - F# and C#. Therefore, the sharp accidental must be placed on the C note as there isn't one in the key signature. If this were the keys D-C#, there needn't be one.


There are two ways of writing a scale: With a key signature or without. If there is none. you'll have to put the accidentals where appropriate.


D Major: KS: F# and C# - the written notes would be: D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D.
D Major (no KS) - D-E-F#-G-A-B-C#-D

Having said this, if you have some knowledge regarding "The Circle of Fifths," you will see that each of the 14 (21 counting enharmonics) keys are related. By seeing this, the thread's question will be answered.

Take the C Major scale: C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C. When you split the scale in half, you have two different scales:

C-D-E-F / G-A-B-C - The first half of C Major belongs to C Major; however, the second half also belongs to G Major.

G-A-B-C / D-E-F#-G Now, having just complete the G Major scale, what other scale are you partly seeing? D Major.

D-E-F#-G / A-B-C#-D. The second half of the D major is? A Major

A-B-C#-D / E-F#-G# A - Second half of A is the first half of E

E-F#-G#-A / B-C#-D#-E ^ E ^ B

Essentially, when I finish it, I would have written out all the scales for the "Order of Sharps." (Starting on C going to the key of C#) I can also do the same thing for flats (F-Cb) and you'll see the same connection (the order is just reversed - Fb-Bb) As you can see, the keys for each subsequent partial scale is shifting by fifths. (The same interval you go by when naming the sharps in key signatures. (Flats go by fourths)

That's why you may see a D Major scale in the Key of G (by fifths) or the Bb Major scale in the key of Eb (by fourths). This is what the Circle of Fifths displays though it's easier to see it in a linear fashion.

I wonder if this was actually Mike's question? If he were clearer about the question, perhaps, there'd be a clearer answer. Personally, I think if he takes in what written here, he may get the answer, he's looking for. As he said long day, but hopefully it'l get ckeared up,

spacey


Russ I fail to understand why you are addressing me. I personally have a
pretty good grasp of theory.

I can only hope that Mike understands your offerings.

My opinion is that he would gain more theoritical insight should he post the transcription
and ask a precise question about what is written and/or what he is questioning.

I took a guess at what he was trying to say or ask....now I know I really don't know.

Until I do I really have nothing else to offer.

I apologize for having quoted you as that was more towards, Mike. I'm doing the same thing, you are: guessing! I'm totally with you on what would really help here. Again, my apologizes for the misquote. I wasn't aiming anything you, personally.

spacey

My opinion is that he would gain more theoritical insight should he post the transcription
and ask a precise question about what is written and/or what he is questioning.

This ^

It also can depend on the genre, like if it's a blues tune.

I didn't look at it for long but those seem to be just extra frilly ornamentation notes. Don't have my theory pants on but I'm assuming if I dissected it it would be Mixo-Blues. Ain't no key sig that covers that.

"that piece of music that you have put up is really in the key of G and everything on it relates to that so why are you even talking about D major melody notes and chords in the first place?"






 All I can say is that I never found anything to play using a G major, or rather a G Ionian mode.

 I kept at it "by ear" and when I found a melody and bass line that I liked, it appeared...  ...it appeared to me as if I played the bulk of it rooted on the D while playing notes that are part of the Ionian mode and then I would go over to what I thought I recognized as the notes in the D Mixolydian mode.

 ... and that's when I realized I was confused.





Thank you for the additional comments... they seem to help clarify a few things for me.


best regards,
mike

On second thought; Beepster has pointed out that D Mixolydian uses the same notes as G Major so it seems like I did find something in G major to play... but I called it something different.




I tend to play what I want to hear... I am not trying to play with other keys on purpose... when I'm playing something in a situation like this I just play the most natural thing as it reflects my personal sensibility at that moment. I'm not trying sound different or anything like that... I'm just trying to interact and commune with the song.

If I hadn't transcribed the piano part I would not have thought much about the song key until after I was done working up a part I liked to listen too.


Thanks.


best regards,
mike

 Mike you sure have a lot of information...I'll had to it LOL.

If you are going to switch your thinking from "key center" to "modal" then
I feel like saying;

Make sure you understand that D mixolydian contains the same notes as the key of "G". (which you know doesn't include a C#)
Should you "think" key of "D" then don't think mixolydian.

Also- if you're thinking key of "D" then realize the tone that may be played, that is not in
the key of "G", will be the C#.

For some reason "modal" and "key center" seems to be a blurred area to you. I could
surely be wrong so...sorry if this is no added value.

@Mike: In no way, shape or form are you doing such, but spacey is right, I also think you have modal and key center mixed up. The reason this occurs is the way modes are traditionally taught. Note, it isn't wrong, just confusing and you can't interchange key with mode.

This is why the charts of seven scales highlighting certain color tones are a better way to learn the modes:

Ionian = Identical to the Major Scale (1-2-3-4-5-6-7-1)

Dorian = Natural Minor - #6 (b6 becomes natural 6. In D: Bb becomes B; In F: Db becomes D. (D-E-F-G-A B-C-D; F-G-Ab-Bb-C-D-Eb-F}

Phrygian = Natural Minor - b2 (E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E)

Lydian = The Major scale - #4 (C-D-E-F#-G-A-B-C)

Mixolydian = Major - b7 - (D-E-F#-G-A-B-C (Dom7/9/13 chords come from this mode)

Aeolian = Identical to Natural Minor (or the relative minor) (A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A)

Locrian: The oddest of them all where all notes are flat except 1 and 4 - C-Db-Eb-F-Gb-Ab-Bb-C (If I started on B, same. I didn't as all the notes are white; therefore, by starting on C, the notes become black - 2 and 3, 5-7)

This chart will be very advantageous to you, but remember that modes even the "Key based" modes (Ionian and Aeolian) are clearly different from Major and minor.

Modes (Even Ionian and Aeolian) are used to convey moods; however, when it comes to those inparticularly, it is not nomenclature to say: "I'm playing in Ionian or Aeolian mode," as that will be picked up based on the mood and whether there's a definite progression or not. IOW, folks say, "I'm playing in this KEY!" if there any indication of a key center or scale!


Modes are generally used for improvisation or soloing, generally vamps that sit for awhile. ii-Vs, most often (Dm9-G13). Now, when you look at this, you're thinking: "I'm in the key of C." You would be, but don't play a C of any kind or you would have gone from the Dorian vibe to the Ionian one (ii-V-I).

Listen to "So What," http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqNTltOGh5c  there's no "tonic" although you're expecting one - even when it temporarily modulates. This tune isn't like "A-Train" (Diana Krall: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZEK8dvfXuQ) where there is a definite tonic. The former has the Dorian vibe/feel/mood while the latter has that of Ionian.

I hope this helps clear up the confusion between mode and key!


EDIT: I'll to decihper the sheet you posted later.

Sort of tenuously related. I was doodling in D Major and started to flatten the sixth. I really liked what was happening. A bit of research showed this to be the reasonably obscure Double Harmonic scale. (D E F# G A Bb C# D)