koikane
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Dither it up
When applying dither which type do you use and why? You do not need to teach the history of dither or why to apply it, I get that. Just wondering what type you use.
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mettelus
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Re: Dither it up
2015/12/09 06:39:57
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This post is from the manual. In most cases I apply triangular myself, which is also the default if I do not select another option.
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patm300e
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Re: Dither it up
2015/12/09 07:09:21
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mettelus This post is from the manual. In most cases I apply triangular myself, which is also the default if I do not select another option.
I use Pow-r 3 for the same reason as what is in the post mettelus referenced. (It is the most transparent.)
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Dither it up
2015/12/09 07:11:26
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Pow-r 3 is the best IF your cpu can handle the load (which most decent one should these days)
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ltb
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Re: Dither it up
2015/12/09 08:33:56
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Use your ears & test on your own material. I find Pow-R 1 is the smoothest.
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Wouter Schijns
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Re: Dither it up
2015/12/09 08:38:12
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if any dithering then best just 1 time, iic that's what the Sonar manual reads too. so if your stuff is getting mastered after you finish it, it's best not to dither, imo. Never dither myself.
post edited by Wouter Schijns - 2015/12/09 08:50:10
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gbowling
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Re: Dither it up
2015/12/09 08:41:29
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Pragi
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Re: Dither it up
2015/12/09 10:28:06
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☄ Helpfulby bayoubill 2015/12/09 16:14:45
It depends what material to dither: - Pow 1 for Classic,Jazz and quiet music aso - Pow 2 for Pop, Classic Rock,Folk etc - Pow 3 for metall, EDM,Hard Techno aso r
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bitflipper
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Re: Dither it up
2015/12/09 11:17:30
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☄ Helpfulby tlw 2015/12/09 12:37:51
Truth is, it really doesn't matter. You can prove this to yourself by exporting several versions of the song using different dither algorithms, including one with no dither at all. 99% of the time, you will not be able to distinguish one from another in a blind A/B test. Normally you'd have to set up an unrealistic scenario (e.g. a greatly boosted reverb tail) to hear the difference. But to answer the question, I use Ozone's MBIT+ algorithm. Not because it's noticeably better, but because it's more convenient to specify it there in the limiter than to remember to choose one at export time. Even if you don't have Ozone, any other third-party limiter is likely to provide a dithering option.
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Pragi
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Re: Dither it up
2015/12/09 11:41:28
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Bit, that´s an old and boring  discussion wether it is possible to hear the different dither algorythms or not. Some hear it, some not. Is it really important ? -imo not cause there is not much of a difference. regards Pragi
post edited by Pragi - 2015/12/09 11:55:58
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wetdentist
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Re: Dither it up
2015/12/09 11:50:21
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wow. i've been using Pow-r 2 all these years like a chump
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ltb
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Re: Dither it up
2015/12/09 11:51:55
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The op said he didn't want the history or why to use it, just which type you used.
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drewfx1
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Re: Dither it up
2015/12/09 12:06:43
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☄ Helpfulby tlw 2015/12/09 12:38:22
carl The op said he didn't want the history or why to use it, just which type you used.
But the fact that he said that and then is still asking implies that what he thinks he knows might be the oft repeated misunderstandings and/or mythological BS that surrounds dither and noise shaping. When reducing bit depth to 16bit, any dither + noise shaping combo is fine with me because any differences between them is just a slightly different noise color that in the overwhelming majority of typical real world listening conditions won't be audible anyway. If one is hearing anything other than different colored noise with different types of dither + noise shaping, then it's either their imagination or the dither wasn't properly implemented.
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Beepster
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Re: Dither it up
2015/12/09 12:09:31
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Pwr-3 just because I have no freaking clue what the REAL worl differences are and that, IIRC, is the most modern and elaborate. If I noticed a problem with the track after applying it I would try the other options starting with the other Pwr options and then the remaining options... but I've never had a problem with Pwr3. It's really not the time of thing I waste a ton of brainspace on. I use a similar approach to the Offline Render options. I use the top shelf Radius mix one by default and if I don't like the results I'll switch to something else. I think I have only switched to another algorithm MAYBE once or twice and even then I'm pretty sure something else was the issue... not the Radius algo.
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mikedocy
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Re: Dither it up
2015/12/09 12:48:15
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I use pow-r 2. pow-r 1 is made for spoken voice. pow-r 2 is made for limited dynamic range rock music pow-r 3 is made for wide dynamic range classical music "the POW-R algorithm is made available in three variants, optimized respectively for simple program such as spoken word, limited dynamic range program such as rock music, and wide dynamic range program such as orchestral music" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POW-R
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kevinwal
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Re: Dither it up
2015/12/09 14:45:36
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I do not use dithering at all until rendering the master. I record in 24 bit and render the final wav file at 24 bit, so there's no dithering at all in Sonar. I bring the wav file into Izotope Ozone 7 standalone for "mastering" (in quotes because I'm just figuring out what the heck that means) and I render the final product at 16 bits. It's then and only then that I use MBIT+ dithering. I don't know if Sonar uses dithering when freezing or bouncing behind the scenes though, I haven't seen that in the manual yet. There may be some going on that I can't see or control somewhere. Dithering once is what the manual recommends, and that makes sense to me; I can't see any point in repeatedly adding noise to a track when the sample bit length isn't changing. And I can use every little advantage I can get at this point.
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stxx
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Re: Dither it up
2015/12/09 15:06:45
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Only dither if your taking your files to 44.1/16 CD and franky.... I can't tell the difference. I use POWR-3 cause I read somewhere its the best
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jpetersen
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Re: Dither it up
2015/12/09 15:21:08
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carl The op said he didn't want the history or why to use it, just which type you used.
... and why.
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jpetersen
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Re: Dither it up
2015/12/09 15:25:12
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...anyway, to answer the question. I use Ozone as my final mastering plug so am obliged to turn dithering in Sonar off and let Ozone do the dithering.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Dither it up
2015/12/09 15:49:13
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stxx Only dither if your taking your files to 44.1/16 CD and franky.... I can't tell the difference. I use POWR-3 cause I read somewhere its the best
To be more precise, only dither when you are doing a downward bit reduction.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Dither it up
2015/12/09 15:53:35
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☄ Helpfulby kevinwal 2015/12/10 14:36:26
kevinwal I do not use dithering at all until rendering the master. I record in 24 bit and render the final wav file at 24 bit, so there's no dithering at all in Sonar. I bring the wav file into Izotope Ozone 7 standalone for "mastering" (in quotes because I'm just figuring out what the heck that means) and I render the final product at 16 bits. It's then and only then that I use MBIT+ dithering. I don't know if Sonar uses dithering when freezing or bouncing behind the scenes though, I haven't seen that in the manual yet. There may be some going on that I can't see or control somewhere. Dithering once is what the manual recommends, and that makes sense to me; I can't see any point in repeatedly adding noise to a track when the sample bit length isn't changing. And I can use every little advantage I can get at this point. 
There is no dither involved in freezing. When bouncing to Track, dither is provided as an option in the Bounce dialog.
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Beepster
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Re: Dither it up
2015/12/09 16:00:08
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Bristol_Jonesey
stxx Only dither if your taking your files to 44.1/16 CD and franky.... I can't tell the difference. I use POWR-3 cause I read somewhere its the best
To be more precise, only dither when you are doing a downward bit reduction.
Yes... that is my (limited) understanding of it as well. Going upward (like 16 to 24) doesn't matter because no information is being removed. The 16bit file isn't going to have anything useful "added" to it or rearranged in a helpful manner when converted to 24 bit... thus making "dithering" pointless and perhaps causing more harm than good (if it does anything at all... which I do not know whether it would or not but I'd imagine it depends on the program incurring the dithering). However this seems like the type of thing BITflipper (lulz) or other such epicly intelligent forumites could really define for us. Then again... the OP didn't want "history" or details so maybe that would be inappropriate... and these types of sciency threads do seem to go off into wackadoodle territory rather quickly too so IDK. I'm just a Beeps (who has currently had a few barley pops) so I should probably be ignored. *burp*
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ltb
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Re: Dither it up
2015/12/09 16:04:19
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jpetersen
carl The op said he didn't want the history or why to use it, just which type you used.
... and why.
That was in response to Pragi. And as stated only dither once & last if going down to a lower bit rate.
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koikane
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Re: Dither it up
2015/12/09 21:45:47
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I'm aware of the bs and truth, just interested in what you use and why.
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koikane
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Re: Dither it up
2015/12/09 21:47:22
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Thank you much, leaned a bit here
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fret_man
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Re: Dither it up
2015/12/09 22:45:46
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Responses 8 and 15 basically contradict each other. I wonder which is correct?
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rabeach
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Re: Dither it up
2015/12/09 23:37:53
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fret_man Responses 8 and 15 basically contradict each other. I wonder which is correct?
everybody has an opinion mine is it really doesn't matter. dither smooths out quantization distortion from truncation with regards to the original signal by randomizing the quantization and in return adds a constant noise level to the signal. the different dithers just use noise with different probability density functions. makes for good white papers and marketing sound bites. imho humans don't hear that well anymore. :-) if you can hear the difference then use it to your advantage. i use ozone's MBIT+ algorithm.
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Anderton
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Re: Dither it up
2015/12/10 01:04:10
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☄ Helpfulby rabeach 2015/12/10 01:24:44
I've tracked/mixed/produced/mastered a lot of classical works where the music has "space" and decaying tails, and as a result also had a lot of test subjects for audio minutiae like bit resolution, 44.1 vs 96, different dither types, etc. Under those circumstances, I found some people can reliably hear the benefits of dither; most can't. Some people can't hear dither at first but after hearing what it does to the music "under the microscope" and then A-Bing music over time, they "learn" to recognize its effects. Hearing the effects of dither requires a trained ear and a quiet listening environment. So the way I see it, I do dithering for the benefit of those who can hear it. (Similarly, the general public can't discriminate pitch as well as musicians but you try to have an instrument that's really in tune anyway, for the benefit of those who are sensitive to tuning discrepancies.) This is the background for answering the OP. I'll take audio and reduce it to around -85 dB to -90 dB or so, which is a realistic floor for real-world D/A converters used in consumer CD players. How you reduce it matters. You can't reduce it in Sonar by normalization or gain changes, because the audio engine is too good and still gives good resolution at those low levels. You'll hear the buzziness because the least significant bits are essentially switching instead of responding smoothly to level changes. Apply different dithers, and you'll definitely hear a difference. Choose the one that sounds best for the material at hand. For example what might sound good with an orchestra might not sound right with a solo nylon-string guitar. OTOH of you're recording dance music and everything sits in the top 6 dB of dynamic range, you can use any dither and you won't hear a difference, nor will you hear a difference if you don't use any dither at all. Dither is basically context-sensitive. You can have guidelines, but I'm not sure you can have rules.
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Anderton
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Re: Dither it up
2015/12/10 01:10:35
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Then of course there's the old joke: "Do you dither?" "Well, yes and no...sometimes, sometimes not...actually I'm not sure, maybe I do, maybe I don't...should I?"
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kevinwal
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Re: Dither it up
2015/12/10 01:17:15
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fret_man Responses 8 and 15 basically contradict each other. I wonder which is correct?
How so? I don't see that they are contradictory in any way.
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