AnsweredDo we OWN our project files?

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mettelus
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Re: Do we OWN our project files? 2018/01/12 19:10:30 (permalink)
Musikman
 
The problem I'm seeing ahead is that although it gives me the audio, it does not place it in the same spot on the timeline as it was in the original Sonar project. So that means I'll preserve the audio, but won't have any way of knowing exactly where on the timeline it starts and stops. So as far as I can tell it will be guesswork for that part, unless anyone here has an solution for that? Appreciate any suggestions! Thanks




Open the cwp in SONAR and export the tracks as broadcast (timestamped) wav files. Each track will then have a time stamp on where it is to be inserted when imported. Also, in the DAW you are importing into, be sure the option to import to timestamp is enabled (as applicable).

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azslow3
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Re: Do we OWN our project files? 2018/01/12 19:58:26 (permalink)
Cactus Music
Ya sorry for my first answer, I should have realized who was asking it and why. Now I see and it is worth wasting brain cells on.. a fare few too. 


 

Or another idea might be PM Noel and just ask him what he thinks. They might say it's a great idea thank you.

Noel is a very nice person. But if I understand that right, he is still working for Gibson and so the "official" person.
Asking such question directly can be not polite (if official answer is different from his personal opinion...).
 
foldaway
Here's a link to article 6 of the EU directive (2009/24/EC) on the legal protection of computer programs.
http://www.wipo.int/wipolex/en/text.jsp?file_id=208108#LinkTarget_129

Thanks! That looks really good (if then have not changed something... I remember many discussions several years ago).
 
MandolinPicker
This might be of interest to you. Its called ProjectScope and it was developed by Mark Adamczyk. It is a browser that shows all of the information within the Sonar Project file.

The idea was inspired by that program, as I have already written in corresponding thread.
Note that ProjectScope shows very far from "all" of the information required for converter.
 
michael diemer
I see. Thanks that helps. My use of Sonar is not very deep, so I don't have these issues. Funny, I compose for full orchestra, with many instruments, but it's all midi and the FX are quite basic.

You probably sometimes have several clips on one track...
 
Musikman
The problem I'm seeing ahead is that although it gives me the audio, it does not place it in the same spot on the timeline as it was in the original Sonar project.

When/if there will be the first prototype, it should be able to do at least that
 
I already know how to get: tracks, simple audio clip position, size and fades (which files, with which shifts/snaps, absolute/musical), simple MIDI clips position and MIDI content and basic project parameters. So I am missing tempo map only (should not take long) to have everything for the first attempt...
 
sharke
Such an app to translate to Reaper files would be marvelous. I imagine a dialog where you'd locate the CWP file, check some boxes to specify which elements of the project file you wish to be reproduced, and then provide a name for the Reaper file. Simples!

If I understand related part of Reaper API right, it should be possible to use normal Reaper "Open project" dialog for that. But that is the simplest part of the project

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#32
tlw
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Re: Do we OWN our project files? 2018/01/13 00:15:28 (permalink)
foldaway
@azslow3
I've also been considering this.
 
Here's a link to article 6 of the EU directive (2009/24/EC) on the legal protection of computer programs.
http://www.wipo.int/wipolex/en/text.jsp?file_id=208108#LinkTarget_129
 
So, as you're in the EU it would be perfectly legal to reverse engineer the .cwp file format & (if I'm reading the directive correctly) the sonar binary, with the purpose of creating a tool to allow interoperability. eg. conversion to another file format.
 
You would also be free to sell such a tool in the EU.  Not sure about the US though.


I’m not so certain about that.

Firstly, the EU isn’t a single nation-state with a federal structure like the USA, it’s a Union of independent sovereign nation states - countries - held together by treaties, trade agreements and the decisions of the member country’s governments. Plus a parliament, civil service (the Commission) and courts with the limited powers required to administer the Union’s common functions and settle disagreements. Not forgetting that some members have exemptions from some Treaty clauses, just to complicate things a bit more.

Which all means EU Directives and Standards are not like a US federal law, made by a single legislature and implemented by a single executive. They’re the result of negotiations between representatives of the EU member countries and other interested parties. Directives, once agreed and published, are not law - instead they require each member country to create its own law to implement the Directive. Which the members get round to.... eventually.

To make things a bit more complicated different countries sometimes interpret the EU’s documents differently - e.g. there are several languages involved and some things don’t always translate very well from one language into another. So sometimes one country’s version of the law might be slightly different to another country’s.

Short version - don’t rely on the wording of a single Directive to get a picture of what is and isn’t legal in any EU member country. Like any legal interpretation you need to look at everything that’s relevant - other statutes, case law and so on in the EU member you’re in at the time.

The references in the Directive to not breaching patents, intellectual property rights or “trade secrets” for example might be relevant. The legal picture could be very complicated indeed, especially given the money involved in the software industry and the number of cases that the courts have already considered.

The wise thing to do might be to start by asking Gibson/Cakewalk if they have any objections. They might say “it’s OK with us”, or they may want money or say “no” and that they’ll sue anyone who creates such a filter.

But just going ahead without asking them at all is a bit of a gamble and could end up costing a lot of money in legal fees.....

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#33
foldaway
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Re: Do we OWN our project files? 2018/01/13 00:28:47 (permalink)
azslow3
foldaway
Here's a link to article 6 of the EU directive (2009/24/EC) on the legal protection of computer programs.
http://www.wipo.int/wipolex/en/text.jsp?file_id=208108#LinkTarget_129

Thanks! That looks really good (if then have not changed something... I remember many discussions several years ago).

 
After some further searching, this appears to still be latest info.
 
Really excited to hear how far you've already got & really hope you carry on with this endeavour.  I'd also be happy to support the development of such a tool through a donation or purchase.
#34
foldaway
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Re: Do we OWN our project files? 2018/01/13 01:37:20 (permalink)
@tlw
 
While I agree that care should be taken, after searching & reading multiple potentially relevant EU directives, I've found no evidence so far to suggest any problems at all! (nb. taking all your points into account)
 
If you've identified any specific issues, it would be great to hear them.  If we can talk in specifics, I think we'd be more help in supporting azslow3's efforts.
 
As to your last point.  If there is no legal basis for Gibson to object, then there is certainly no reason to ask for thier permission.
 
#35
Anderton
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Re: Do we OWN our project files? 2018/01/13 04:44:49 (permalink)
Look at all the programs that can read Acidized files, but I don't know if the file format was considered proprietary or not.
 
I guess where it gets sticky is that if you're just importing a single data file, that's different from importing multiple aspects that may be considered proprietary...for example, Mix Recall settings. But, suppose you recall QuadCurve EQ settings and apply them to a different EQ. I don't think Cakewalk would own your EQ settings, those are settings you made to their EQ so you should be able to make those settings to a different EQ. In that case, the program is just like a notepad to hold your settings.
 
In any event it's an interesting question.
 
 

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azslow3
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Re: Do we OWN our project files? 2018/01/13 10:18:16 (permalink)
foldaway
@tlw
 
While I agree that care should be taken, after searching & reading multiple potentially relevant EU directives, I've found no evidence so far to suggest any problems at all! (nb. taking all your points into account)
 
If you've identified any specific issues, it would be great to hear them.  If we can talk in specifics, I think we'd be more help in supporting azslow3's efforts.

I also have such impression at the moment.
 
While not all EU Directives are directly laws, I understand that in some areas EU has almost direct control on things. It comes from "EU" meaning in general, while the behavior is not US like, it is definitively stronger then let say UN. Without common patents, trademarks, copyrights and related rules enforcement, economically borderless  EU will fall apart in no time.
 
Anderton
Look at all the programs that can read Acidized files, but I don't know if the file format was considered proprietary or not.

Such formats (several markers) have no technological component. I have already found several (EU) courts decisions that even proprietary scripting languages can be "parsed" without any restrictions or permissions, at least for purpose in question. F.e. when someone creates own program and has considered to USE some proprietary format for it, it is not the same as TRANSFER the information from that format. The later fall into "fair use" case in all documents I have seen so far.
 
But since you are here... Reaper does not support FX chains and CW "FX chain" is not a normal plug-in. I guess I will have to "un-roll" them. Your (locked) FX chains contain not exposed to users IP and so should not be un-rolled. Is that right?
 

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#37
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Re: Do we OWN our project files? 2018/01/13 13:54:07 (permalink)
mettelus
Musikman
 
The problem I'm seeing ahead is that although it gives me the audio, it does not place it in the same spot on the timeline as it was in the original Sonar project. So that means I'll preserve the audio, but won't have any way of knowing exactly where on the timeline it starts and stops. So as far as I can tell it will be guesswork for that part, unless anyone here has an solution for that? Appreciate any suggestions! Thanks



Open the cwp in SONAR and export the tracks as broadcast (timestamped) wav files. Each track will then have a time stamp on where it is to be inserted when imported. Also, in the DAW you are importing into, be sure the option to import to timestamp is enabled (as applicable).



Alternatively, if you have only one clip per track you can slip drag the left ends of each clip to the same zero point and bounce them. With several clips per track you'd need to bounce them all to form one clip first.
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tlw
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Re: Do we OWN our project files? 2018/01/13 16:42:38 (permalink)
foldaway
If you've identified any specific issues, it would be great to hear them.  If we can talk in specifics, I think we'd be more help in supporting azslow3's efforts.


I haven’t in any detail, but I’m not a lawyer specialising in that aspect of the law. Those who are may well find something they can build an objection out of. And as Gibson is a US corporation they may be able to persuade the US courts to take an interest no matter where someone who they want to sue lives.

foldaway 
As to your last point.  If there is no legal basis for Gibson to object, then there is certainly no reason to ask for thier permission.


That “if” is the key word. And it’s not unknown for companies to raise objections and move towards the courts regardless of the legal position with the object of costing their opponent so much money they can’t afford to fight the case.

I’m afraid that thinking Gibson have no legal reason to object doesn’t mean that Gibson have no arguable legal reason to object. That’s something courts exist to sort out.

All I’m saying is that personally I’d start by asking the question.

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Anderton
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Re: Do we OWN our project files? 2018/01/13 17:53:38 (permalink)
azslow3
But since you are here... Reaper does not support FX chains and CW "FX chain" is not a normal plug-in. I guess I will have to "un-roll" them. Your (locked) FX chains contain not exposed to users IP and so should not be un-rolled. Is that right?



The reason for locking them ceased to exist a while ago, so the new and additional CA-X amp sims for the 30th Anniversary freebies that were based on TH3 were unlocked. Those FX Chains also were improved compared to the original CA-X amps, so I would recommend them instead of the older, locked versions. Also, I believe that if you open any locked FX Chains in SONAR X3, they will unlock by themselves.
 
In any event if there are FX Chains that I created, you are welcome to use them however you want. I am replicating several of the amps in Studio One's FX Chains using S1's processors in conjunction with TH3.

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azslow3
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Re: Do we OWN our project files? 2018/01/13 18:17:58 (permalink)
Anderton
Also, I believe that if you open any locked FX Chains in SONAR X3, they will unlock by themselves.
In any event if there are FX Chains that I created, you are welcome to use them however you want. I am replicating several of the amps in Studio One's FX Chains using S1's processors in conjunction with TH3.

Thanks!

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#41
Cactus Music
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Re: Do we OWN our project files? 2018/01/13 18:51:18 (permalink)
What comes to mind for me is all the file converter apps out there. I have used a few like Handbrake to convert movie formats. And even converting a Wave to a MP3 used to involve paying for the codex. 
So if what you are building is a converter app that will say convert a CWP into CPR ( Cubase) or whatever it is Studio one etc uses I don't see how that's breaking anyone's copy-write. 
 
The only laws  if they existed,  is that you are forbidden from  tampering with the coding that you might need to build such a tool. If you cannot find that in writing seems it's all good to go. 

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#42
ampfixer
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Re: Do we OWN our project files? 2018/01/13 19:02:47 (permalink)
Forgive me for looking stupid, but I thought the OMF export file was supposed to be a way to get your projects into different DAW's. That was my hope. Unfortunately I can't get Mixcraft or Reaper to see or import the OMF files Sonar generates. Maybe the OMF files would be a place to start rather than the CWP files. Again, I know nothing about programming, but it sounds logical to me.

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#43
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Do we OWN our project files? 2018/01/13 21:21:49 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby CakeAlexSHere 2018/01/13 21:23:22
azslow3
While not all EU Directives are directly laws, I understand that in some areas EU has almost direct control on things. It comes from "EU" meaning in general, while the behavior is not US like, it is definitively stronger then let say UN. Without common patents, trademarks, copyrights and related rules enforcement, economically borderless  EU will fall apart in no time.
 
Such formats (several markers) have no technological component. I have already found several (EU) courts decisions that even proprietary scripting languages can be "parsed" without any restrictions or permissions, at least for purpose in question. F.e. when someone creates own program and has considered to USE some proprietary format for it, it is not the same as TRANSFER the information from that format. The later fall into "fair use" case in all documents I have seen so far.
 
But since you are here... Reaper does not support FX chains and CW "FX chain" is not a normal plug-in. I guess I will have to "un-roll" them. Your (locked) FX chains contain not exposed to users IP and so should not be un-rolled. Is that right?
 


 
Here is the EULA. Note the standard reverse assembly sections. http://store.steampowered.com/eula/241070_eula_0
So in theory this isn't kosher to do. Besides it would be incredibly difficult to actually do a full translator. Several years ago I was collaborating with a company who wanted to do just this and started writing up a specification. However since our file format is a modern object oriented chunked based (forward and backwards compatible) format, its very hard to write up without providing the actual code. Reverse assembling the file would be prohibitively difficult since each object has its own persistence history of versioned chunks.
 
I'm impressed that you want to try doing this but even if I wanted to do it myself it would be incredibly hard. I wouldn't recommend wasting your life on this :) Even something basic like pulling volume levels and parameter info for tracks would be very tricky since that data is all in a sub document within the project file. Each parameter is keyed by a bunch of guids etc which makes it pretty hard to find.

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#44
azslow3
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Re: Do we OWN our project files? 2018/01/13 22:03:58 (permalink)
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Here is the EULA. Note the standard reverse assembly sections. http://store.steampowered.com/eula/241070_eula_0
So in theory this isn't kosher to do.

Thanks for the answer. I guess you mention this section:

2.2. You may NOT reverse compile, reverse assemble, reverse engineer, modify, incorporate in whole or in part in any other product or create derivative works based on all or any part of the Product.
...
2.6 You may not perform engineering analyses of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT, including performance analyses, or benchmark analyses, without the written permission of Cakewalk.

Are CWP files generated by Sonar also a "part of the Product"?
I mean I do not see any statements about anything GENERATED by the product (WAVs, MIDIs, CWPs, presets, etc). Do I miss something?
 

Besides it would be incredibly difficult to actually do a full translator. Several years ago I was collaborating with a company who wanted to do just this and started writing up a specification. However since our file format is a modern object oriented chunked based (forward and backwards compatible) format, its very hard to write up without providing the actual code. Reverse assembling the file would be prohibitively difficult since each object has its own persistence history of versioned chunks.
 
I'm impressed that you want to try doing this but even if I wanted to do it myself it would be incredibly hard. I wouldn't recommend wasting your life on this :) Even something basic like pulling volume levels and parameter info for tracks would be very tricky since that data is all in a sub document within the project file. Each parameter is keyed by a bunch of guids etc which makes it pretty hard to find.

As I have written in this thread, I am not at "want to try" stage... I am rather close to the first prototype. Even exporting the information I can extract at the moment can simplify project transfer. And I am sure I can advance.
 
So, in short. Are you "do not recommend to do this" or "forbid to do this"? That is the major question.
 

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#45
msmcleod
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Re: Do we OWN our project files? 2018/01/13 22:25:54 (permalink)
Firstly, I think there's no doubt you own your .cwp files. 
If you wrote a book in word, does Microsoft own your .doc file? I don't think so.
 
Also, I don't think there's any legal issues with producing something to read .cwp files.
Microsoft's .doc and .xls formats have never been published, yet there are a miriad of libraries available to read them, and many of them with the source code freely available. And to go a stage further, programs such as OpenOffice and LibreOffice can also WRITE back to those formats.
 
The main reason companies don't publish their formats is they want to be able to change them whenever they like without worrying about breaking 3rd party programs they have no control over.
 
There's only one thing you have to watch out for, and that's how you reverse engineer the format. Looking at the .cwp file itself is absolutely fine. Reverse engineering Sonar, or TTSRES.DLL to find out how it does things would cause some legal issues.
 
M.
#46
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Re: Do we OWN our project files? 2018/01/13 23:34:39 (permalink)
Thanks for the above suggestions, all appreciated. I do know that I can export my tracks individually as wav files with a timestamp, however, I was trying to figure out a way to avoid having to export each track individually. I have a lot of projects, and most have between 10 - 30 tracks, so that's a lot of bouncing and/or exporting one track at a time, it would take forever one track at a time. If I save as a normal cwp file, all the audio does get saved individually as wav files, and they can all be loaded (one at a time) into another DAW, but will all load to the first beat of the first measure by default. I'm trying to find a way for the other DAW to see where the tracks should fall in on the timeline as they were in my Sonar project without having to convert each track one at a time. If Sonar sees that info, why couldn't another DAW see it? 
 
I would think that with so many other DAW companies aware that Sonar is no longer, one of them might step up and put an update into their DAW that enables it to load Sonar Project or Bundle files.  How hard can it be for another DAW company to do that? You would think they would jump on it because they would probably quickly scoop up a lot of Cakewalk's customer base if they make their DAW format compatible to Sonar's....or at least make a provision to read the embedded info that dictates where the track goes on the timeline. Most can read the tempo of an audio track, why not the rest of the info?
 
 
 

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#47
DrLumen
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Re: Do we OWN our project files? 2018/01/14 00:36:09 (permalink)
Interesting.
 
A couple of things come to mind. First is the recreation of the IBM BIOS by Compaq. I don't remember the term used but it was like the developers could not have ever seen any of the IBM BIOS (black box?). As long as they weren't using IBM code or ever exposed to it, and recreating it all from scratch, they were immune from copyright enforcement. As you have never seen (or likely never seen) the actual source code for reading and creating CWP files, you should be safe on that point.
 
Then there was the GIF hoopla of the 90's. They used the LZW compression that was later copyrighted. While Compuserve owned the GIF file format, some of the codec turned out to be copyright-able, which Sperry did later. Again, unless you are using code from some 3pt (likely the same 3pt code that CW used) you should be safe here as well.
 
The way it sounds, there would have been utilities or other daws that would have been able to open CWP files had there not been so much accumulation of mud and cludge over the years.
 
Plus, like others have said, it is no skin off CW's nose. They aren't losing revenue by somebody being able to read a project file. They may not like the fact that it is helping the migration from their product but they didn't give anyone a choice in that respect.

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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Do we OWN our project files? 2018/01/14 01:23:17 (permalink)
azslow3
So, in short. Are you "do not recommend to do this" or "forbid to do this"? That is the major question.

 
Its not up to me azslow, I'm not a lawyer and Cakewalk the company has stopped. However Gibson or another company that potentially acquires the assets and wants to continue the product could take issue with an unauthorized translator even if you could manage to do one so you would have to be prepared to deal with that.
You are a smart dude and I'm sure you could get far with the basic transfer of tracks and audio and maybe even plugin data but a full blown translator that can take a project and make it sound the same in another DAW is a pipe dream. Even the guys who were in the business of doing just that who we were working with couldn't do it.

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#49
Cactus Music
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Re: Do we OWN our project files? 2018/01/14 04:11:30 (permalink)
I'm glad Noel chimed in but doesn't sound like a few people read what he said by the next couple of  post.. Like the one that said "how hard can this be" did you not read what he said,, It's near impossible and I can see that. And one must keep in mind that it's possibly not in the best interest of DAW "A" to make it easy to switch to DAW "B" as that's a sure fired way to loose clients. 
 
The only conversion I can see would appeal to potential customers is one of Sonar to Pro Tools. There's no danger of Sonar users crossing over to Pro tools, but it would have made life easier for those with small commercial studios to take their projects to the bigger studios for further work. 
But a conversion so you could easily switch to Cubase, Reaper or Studio one is too close to home and if I owned Cakewalk I would not see it as good business. 
 
 

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#50
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Re: Do we OWN our project files? 2018/01/14 04:16:03 (permalink)
Wouldn't you need to know the CWP format as well as the new DAW's project format for this to work?
 
Besides... by the time you get it all figured out up and running, I think, you could have spent the same time just exporting/inserting the tracks by conventional means.  Once your projects are exported you'll have a converter you no longer need unless you keep creating new projects in Sonar that you intend on importing into your new DAW. In which case why not just use Sonar?!
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Re: Do we OWN our project files? 2018/01/14 04:40:42 (permalink)
I sort of agree but--- It's his hobbie , he enjoys the challenge! 
I'm staying with Sonar. 
But my projects transfer into Cubase with little effort.
That's because I'm not doing crazy things with Sonar. It.s the folks who have cretaed 100 track, 60 VST, 20 lane 9000 node automation monsters that are crapping their pants. I advise they just finish those off in Sonar and start something new. If you can't finish a song it was not worth starting anyhow. Learn to let go and move on to new and better creations. Just kidding,,,:)  but it;s partially true.. 

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#52
azslow3
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Re: Do we OWN our project files? 2018/01/14 08:15:50 (permalink)
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
azslow3
So, in short. Are you "do not recommend to do this" or "forbid to do this"? That is the major question.

Its not up to me azslow, I'm not a lawyer and Cakewalk the company has stopped. However Gibson or another company that potentially acquires the assets and wants to continue the product could take issue with an unauthorized translator even if you could manage to do one so you would have to be prepared to deal with that.
You are a smart dude and I'm sure you could get far with the basic transfer of tracks and audio and maybe even plugin data but a full blown translator that can take a project and make it sound the same in another DAW is a pipe dream. Even the guys who were in the business of doing just that who we were working with couldn't do it.

Thanks. I will not release the translator into public then. But I am going to demonstrate that is possible.
I understand that full translator which sound the same is even theoretically impossible to make (without izotope, ProChannel, etc.). But I guess just:
* tempo
* moving audio to correct position (with loop points)
* moving MIDI to correct position
* automations
* and FXes
cover the expectation of such transition.
 
But the point is taken. We DO NOT own CWP projects.
 
msmcleod
Firstly, I think there's no doubt you own your .cwp files. 
If you wrote a book in word, does Microsoft own your .doc file? I don't think so.

But if you have typed it on a friends computer, you do not own this computer after putting your book there. Even in case you have rented the flat in which it stay. Your friend has no rights on the book, but till you have a way to copy .doc file somewhere else, the situation is not good. Your friend propose to export it as a text file loosing all formatting or continue on his place (which is still fine, but the flat and the computer are not going to be updated/supported).
 
soens
Wouldn't you need to know the CWP format as well as the new DAW's project format for this to work?

And so my "new DAW" has text based project files and no problem people mess with them. This lesson is learned.
 
Thanks all for thoughts and suggestions. There will be no public prototype release. But we can continue once I can demonstrate something

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#53
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Do we OWN our project files? 2018/01/14 16:07:33 (permalink)
No you misunderstood. Users most definitely own their projects and any music produced in SONAR! 
I was referring to the translator itself not the project files. Personally I think export tools are cool although they are very hard to get right since all programs store data very differently.

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#54
azslow3
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Re: Do we OWN our project files? 2018/01/14 17:29:59 (permalink)
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
No you misunderstood. Users most definitely own their projects and any music produced in SONAR! 
I was referring to the translator itself not the project files. Personally I think export tools are cool although they are very hard to get right since all programs store data very differently.

When I own something, I normally can do with it what I want. F.e. I can take my guitar apart and even attach some parts to another guitar, right?
I own my Reaper files. I can open them with any text editor any "copy paste" to any other place, I can buy AATranslator and extract some information out of it automatically, etc.
 
But you write that while I own automations in my CPW file, I am not allowed to extract them out of it.
Sorry, but that sounds like a bit strange interpretation of "owning" things for me. More like CW allows me to store my information in something I do not really own. So like a deposit in a bank. I own the deposit, but I do not own the bank. So to take it out, I have to follow rules...
 
I repeat. I do not disassemble/debug/etc. any CW code. I purely analyze the content of CWP file (sure, including changes in it when I modify the project).  Since you have already mentioned that. Yes, it is in general hierarchical objects container. Most objects are not structured down to primitives, so there are many chunks, relatively big binary structures, lists, arrays and maps of them, with some conditional flags when something exist or requires different interpretation (probably "version" or "types"). "Automatic digging" has produced the outline which was possible to relatively quickly interpret (tracks list->audio slices->audio files, track list->MIDI clip->MIDI events, etc.).
There are some clever (but known) solutions (like packing 6 bytes integer mTicks and seconds in double into one union, using NaN region of double). But so far I have not spotted anything what can be called IP, I mean nothing is so unusual that it should be protected as a technological innovation.
Without that "technological" component, data/software format can not be protected in Europe (from everything I know so far). At that stage I have created this thread, to discuss the topic in public

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#55
Soundwise
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Re: Do we OWN our project files? 2018/01/14 19:10:31 (permalink)
I think the CWP translator will be awesome and very welcome tool. Looking forward to try it.

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foldaway
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Re: Do we OWN our project files? 2018/01/15 02:21:28 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2018/01/15 12:21:36
There seems to be a lot of people willing to offer legal opinions, while stating "I'm not a lawyer", as some kind of justification for not spending any time using a search engine & reading around the subject!
 
A few points from my research in relation to various earlier posts;
 
- The US courts have no jurisdiction in the EU, so any court action would have to be through the (in this case) German courts, which are required to implement EU directives.
- An EULA cannot remove the rights afforded by the EU Directive 2009/24/EC.  See the Oracle vs UsedSoft for a nice high profile example of this.  It's worth noting, that in comparison, the situation here is incredibly simple to understand (a Cakewalk you could say!), given how clear article 6 is on the subject.
- Even if the cwp files were considered "part of the program", Directive 2009/24/EC Article 6 specifically allows thier reverse engineering for the purposes of interoperability.
 
If anyone believes I am interpreting this incorrectly, please explain how.
link again : http://www.wipo.int/wipolex/en/text.jsp?file_id=208108#LinkTarget_129
 
 
#57
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Re: Do we OWN our project files? 2018/01/15 07:04:28 (permalink)
azslow3
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
No you misunderstood. Users most definitely own their projects and any music produced in SONAR! 
I was referring to the translator itself not the project files. Personally I think export tools are cool although they are very hard to get right since all programs store data very differently.

When I own something, I normally can do with it what I want. F.e. I can take my guitar apart and even attach some parts to another guitar, right?
I own my Reaper files. I can open them with any text editor any "copy paste" to any other place, I can buy AATranslator and extract some information out of it automatically, etc.
 
But you write that while I own automations in my CPW file, I am not allowed to extract them out of it.
Sorry, but that sounds like a bit strange interpretation of "owning" things for me. More like CW allows me to store my information in something I do not really own. So like a deposit in a bank. I own the deposit, but I do not own the bank. So to take it out, I have to follow rules...

 
You're being far too pedantic about this and making it harder than it needs to be. 
 
When we use Sonar to make our original music, we own our music and Cakewalk has no claim to it. That should be obvious. What Cakewalk has done (and other DAW makers have done) is provide us with the tools to make our music. They own the code to those tools, and we own the music. If you create a song in Sonar and save it as a Sonar file (i.e. .cwp, .cwb), the music in that file is yours, not Cakewalk's. But Cakewalk owns the code to the DAW tools we use to create and save our music, and they sold you permission to use a copy of that code with the conditions described in their EULA. By using their tools, you agreed to their EULA. As far as reverse engineering any Sonar software, it is covered by the EULA, which generally states that you are prohibited from doing that. If you move ahead with your translator you could possibly open yourself up to litigation (if Gibson so chooses). If you have questions about that, you need to consult with a lawyer who has the appropriate knowledge and you can't expect to receive permission, or even reliable legal advice, through a web forum like this one.
 
There are some clever (but known) solutions (like packing 6 bytes integer mTicks and seconds in double into one union, using NaN region of double). But so far I have not spotted anything what can be called IP, I mean nothing is so unusual that it should be protected as a technological innovation.

 
Whether or not their "solutions" can be called IP is not determined by your anecdotal observations - that is determined by legal experts, and you can bet that the Cakewalk/Gibson legal team *will* consider their method as Intellectual Property.
 
You are asking some questions the require an attorney, but you seem to be trying to get legal advice from a forum full of musicians.  :-/

  
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Brando
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Re: Do we OWN our project files? 2018/01/15 12:56:13 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby jackson white 2018/01/16 15:26:48
Ruben - the only question that Alexey is really trying to understand is whether a CWP file is considered "code" or whether it is a "container".
As he has stated, he has no intention to dig into SONAR which he agrees is "code". Unfortunately it doesn't seem like Noel is able to give him a straight answer. (Don't waste your time?).
I would think the last thing he wants is to have to enlist an attorney for something that is likely to be freeware or shareware or donationware or at best an app for a very small market. The utility also has its most significant value now and in the near future as a tool to help current users move to another DAW, in this case Reaper.

And - not to get even more pedantic, I would say that it would be hard for Cakewalk to prove they have more right of ownership to individual CWP files than the user - who clearly has (sole) rights to the contained content.
post edited by Brando - 2018/01/15 14:33:28

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#59
foldaway
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Re: Do we OWN our project files? 2018/01/15 14:25:47 (permalink)
Cactus Music
That's because I'm not doing crazy things with Sonar. It.s the folks who have cretaed 100 track, 60 VST, 20 lane 9000 node automation monsters that are crapping their pants. I advise they just finish those off in Sonar and start something new.

 
Yeah, I'm one of those folk (but with tracks ~2x as complex) & unfortunately, I can't finish any of these songs as Gibson/Cakewalk have left Sonar Platinum with a recognised crippling showstopper of an automation bug, that leaves automation lanes orphaned & uneditable!
 
So for folk like myself who've invested huge amounts of time, the only hope going forward is a tool such as the one azslow3 is developing.
#60
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