What, haven't you guys been to the

http://forum.cakewalk.com/tt.aspx?forumid=illuminati

fourm?

Its where Zimmer, Copland (1900-1990), Williams, Elfman, Fleck, et al hang out.  Boy I thought everyone went there.

Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]

Monkey23



I know that my current Cakewalk dealer has decided not to stock X1 (Producer, Studio, and Essential) but will order it for a customer as a "special order".

Who is your local dealer?

Would prefer not to say for reasons that will be explained in the PM I just sent you.

New Coke is an interesting example to raise. The reality of that whole thing is way different to the myth. The myth being that people overwhelmingly hated it, and what were they thinking, and yadda yadda.

Here's an excerpt from the Wikipedia page on it. The whole thing's worth a read, but this bit, and particularly the bits I've highlighted are somewhat illuminating I think:

Early acceptance

The company, as it had planned, introduced the new formula with big marketing pushes in New York (workers renovating the Statue of Liberty were symbolically the first Americans given cans to take home[20]) and Washington, D.C. (where thousands of free cans were given away in Lafayette Park). Sales figures from those cities, and other regions where it had been introduced, showed a reaction that went as the market research had predicted. In fact, Coke's sales were up 8% over the same period the year before.[21]
Most Coke drinkers resumed buying the new drink at much the same level as they had the old one. Surveys indicated, in fact, that a majority liked the new flavoring.[22] Three-quarters of the respondents said they would buy New Coke again.[21] The big test, however, remained in the Southeast, where Coke was first bottled and tasted.

[edit] Backlash

Despite New Coke's acceptance with a large number of Coca-Cola drinkers, a vocal minority of them resented the change in formula and were not shy about making that known — again just as had happened in the focus groups.[23]
Many of these drinkers were Southerners, some of whom considered the drink a fundamental part of regional identity. They viewed the company's decision to change the formula through the prism of the Civil War, as another surrender to the "Yankees"[23]. Company headquarters in Atlanta started receiving letters expressing anger or deep disappointment. Over 400,000 calls and letters were received by the company.[19] A psychiatrist Coke hired to listen in on phone calls to the company hotline, 1-800-GET-COKE, told executives some people sounded as if they were discussing the death of a family member.[24]
They were, nonetheless, joined by some voices from outside the region. Chicago Tribune columnist Bob Greene wrote some widely reprinted pieces ridiculing the new flavor and damning Coke's executives for having changed it. Talk show hosts and comedians made light of the switch. Ads for New Coke were booed heavily when they appeared on the scoreboard at the Houston Astrodome.[20] Even Fidel Castro, a longtime Coke drinker, contributed to the backlash, calling New Coke a sign of American capitalist decadence.[25] Goizueta's own father expressed similar misgivings towards his son; the only time the younger man recalled him ever agreeing with Castro, the man whose revolution had driven him and his son, nearly penniless, to America a quarter-century before.[26]
Pepsi took advantage of the situation, running ads in which a first-time Pepsi drinker exclaimed "Now I know why Coke did it!"[27] However, Pepsi actually gained very few converts over Coke's switch, despite claiming a 14% sales increase over the same month the previous year, the largest sales growth in the company's history.[21] The most alienated customers simply refused to buy New Coke rather than switch to Pepsi.[28] Coca-Cola's director of corporate communications, Carlton Curtis, realized over time that they were more upset about the withdrawal of the old formula than the taste of the new one.[29]
Gay Mullins, a Seattle retiree looking to start a public relations firm with $120,000 of borrowed money, formed the organization Old Cola Drinkers of America on May 28 to lobby Coca-Cola to either reintroduce the old formula or sell it to someone else. His organization eventually received over 60,000 phone calls. He also filed a class action lawsuit against the company (which was quickly dismissed by a judge who said he preferred the taste of Pepsi[30]), while nevertheless expressing interest in landing Coca-Cola Company as a client of his new firm should it reintroduce the old formula.[31] In two informal blind taste tests, Mullins either failed to distinguish New Coke from old or expressed a preference for New Coke.[32]
Still, despite ongoing resistance in the South, New Coke continued to do well in the rest of the country.[23] But executives were uncertain of how international markets would react. Sergio Zyman, the company's chief marketing officer, heard doubts and skepticism from his relatives in Mexico, where New Coke was slated to be introduced later that summer, when he went there on vacation.
Goizueta publicly voiced a complaint many company executives had been making in private as they shared letters the company had received thanking them for the change in formula, that bashing it had become "chic" and that, as had happened in the focus groups, peer pressure was keeping those who liked it from speaking up in its favor as vociferously as its critics were against it. Donald Keough, the company's president and chief operating officer, reported overhearing this exchange at his country club outside Atlanta:

"Have you tried it?"
"Yes."
"Did you like it?"
"Yes, but I'll be damned if I'll let Coca-Cola know that."[33]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Coke

John T wrote:
"New Coke is an interesting example to raise."
 
John T, smart fellow you.  You picked up on that purposeful inclusion in my post.
 
Yes, New Coke was better in the taste testing part of their consumer research.  Where they failed miserably was the exclusion of the simple human emotional attachment to the previous product.   No one asked if this was a suitable replacement for the old Coke.    Humm.....is there a parallelism here?  I’ll let others ponder that question.

And where does Pepsi fit in?

Hi Brandon,

Thank you for you reply and for your having shared some insights with us.

Your comment, that many users you speak with are unaware of the forum, struck a nerve... and I would like to share an response with you.

You have mentioned to me previously that you have met many users, new users, and prospective users, who claim they find SONAR too complicated or too confusing.

I would like to suggest that there may be a correlation here.

Personally I know of no other program that requires as much knowledge to master and fully understand. I guess your direct competitors may be similar... but I don't anything outside of DAW environments that require so much knowledge and experience. A competent DAW operator must know music, acoustics, electronic audio, and basic sound production skills. Furthermore the operator has to have a mind suited to creating something from constituent parts. That's a serious list of qualifications.

I can hack my way around 3D Studio Max and Maya and produce video animation and game interiors. I can edit video in just about any editor. But, honestly I can't think of any other type or category of program that requires so much knowledge to utilize effectively as a DAW. I don't mean that to seem like a bad thing... I think it's great that Cakewalk and a few competitors are pushing the absolute limits of what we may regard as a single "Workstation" application in any field of endeavor.

And so, I wonder if the very people whom you speak to who claim that SONAR is too confusing, cluttered, or complicated are the very people who are not taking advantage of the opportunities to learn here at the Cakewalk forum.

I find this forum has been invaluable for me with regards to learning SONAR. Personally, I try to *trade* for help with SONAR by offering tips and advice about audio production. Info which I have learned from a lifetime of experience. The forum works like a big pay forward circle for me and the forum is vital to me as I continue to learn SONAR.

I sincerely hope you will consider this the next time you are speaking with someone who is advising you too dumb down and simplify SONAR while they remain unaware of the vast amount of help that they may receive here at the forum.

By my estimate it takes at least 3 years to master SONAR and that must seem humbling to seasoned musicians or engineers that are simply new to SONAR.  I sincerely feel that placating requests to make everything seem simple is a disservice to the potential that SONAR has always represented.

I hope this message finds you in an open minded mood and that you enjoy a great spring season.

very best regards,
mike

 

John T

Katie_Katie


John T wrote:
"New Coke is an interesting example to raise."

John T, smart fellow you.  You picked up on that purposeful inclusion in my post.

Yes, New Coke was better in the taste testing part of their consumer research.  Where they failed miserably was the exclusion of the simple human emotional attachment to the previous product.   No one asked if this was a suitable replacement for the old Coke.    Humm.....is there a parallelism here?  I’ll let others ponder that question.

That's never been my view of it. It's interesting to me, as "New Coke" hos become a mythological signifier, which people use to mean, more or less "the triumph of popular common sense over corporate idiocy". When you look at the details of it, it turns out to be really no such thing, indeed quite the opposite. It's a story of the strenuous and ultimately successful efforts of a vocal minority to spin their own agendas as being in the general interest.

This is obviously an uncomfortable idea, as nobody wants to believe that they've been duped into passionately subscribing to a view they didn't really hold in the first place.

As to whether there's a useful analogy for what's been going on on this forum of late, I dunno. I think this place is too much of a backwater, really. I doubt it's that influential either way.

What has been going on in this forum since X1 was released has been IMHO an anomaly.  What's odd is that many longtime users who are having real problems in X1 kvetch about the marketing.
 
It's a side issue for them to be sure, but there is this implied "vox populi" going on here that I find to be delusional.
 
I'm sure someone who's never bought Sonar before has been crippled by X1, but try to find a post from one of them here that you don't think isn't complete bs.  I haven't.
 
It's the guys that knew better to hang back on X1 that were voluminously barfing 3 weeks in.
   
You hear "I never trust reviews" and "I've invested my time, money and improved the product" drivel.  And those guys who obsessively post technically do have influence on the forum, and they seem to expect CW to believe that influence.
 
I do have something else to say but I'm anticipating some things I consider inevetiable... Blechh.
 
 
 
 

Geeze...that "some other dude" guy is HOT!!!!!!!!!!  If only I wasn't straight.  Dern.  I mean that dark mustache and that blue hat....wah wah wee waw!!

Yeah Mike, I'd say it's time for an upgrade. Oh, and stay away from yorolpal...

It is obvious to me that some folks would buy a painted rock with the words “Sonar X5” and be happy clams.

 
Hey, I just looked in the Cakewalk store and I couldn't find the Sonar X5 rocks. Can you post a link?

johnnyV


Well, maybe if X1 sucks so bad, at least a lot of folks will come back to the Producer forum which has been relegated to the status of Home Studio forum. We're waiting for the smoke to clear from above before proceeding.
You want to see something sad, go visit the Highly tooted " Getting Started" forum.
Average reply to questions= 2.3
Average response time to questions = 22.1 hours

I suspect most of them will eventually end up here. And come on, it ain't THAT bad...

What I'm getting at is that I hope that we DON'T represent the norm ( my apologies to Norm ).

 
Ahh man, Norm is gonna be pissed!
 

Lynn


I have 5 friends that have been using Sonar over the last 10 to 12 years, and none of them care about this forum for various reasons.  Mainly because they work in their studios, have no problems, and when they're done working they get as far away from their computers as possible.  Some people actually have lives.  I suspect that is true for most CW users everywhere.  And then, there are those of us that like to share, brag, complain, teach, learn, etc.  Since X1 has been released, I've had the strongest desire to share my feelings with the world.  I think it got into my water supply.  What I'm getting at is that I hope that we DON'T represent the norm ( my apologies to Norm ).

I can't say I have that many friends/associates that use Sonar but I know 2 people who only come here when I shoot them a link.
 
Lynn, I've read about your previous struggles with X1 and I'm very glad they're mostly alleviated.  I think you were quite a gentleman during that process too.  Cheers!
 

I resonate with what Urbancheese has said. (EDIT .... Although I just realise now that another whole page of conversation has passed since then ... Doh!)
I too am a long term Cakewalk user and supporter (18 or so years) but have only ever posted here in the last two months because of difficulties I've had with X1.  I've always been a Cakewalk fan and have lurked occasionally on the forum over the years as a guest, but now is the first time I have really needed help and or answers.
 
I've had a lot of crashes and strange behaviour from X1 but have often found someone else has usually encountered it before I do. Therefore, I haven't needed to raise the issue or comment - just read what others have already found and glean from that. In a bizarre kind of way - it is somewhat coldly comforting to know someone else is having the same trouble!!!!
 
I see the forum like any other social grouping - some are more extroverted and willing to put their opinion out there immediately - while others venture more cautiously testing the waters first, while some simply like to hear others speak as a way of forming their own opinions. My suspicion is that the forum IS a reasonable cross section of the total user base ... some early adaptors, some resistant to change and many more somewhere in between.
 
my $0.02 worth

We are only bits and peices of a whole we have never seen.