jb101
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Re: Dumb & Simple Fix for Crackles with X3c
2013/11/06 11:29:11
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2:43AM
Turning off 64-bit engine? Seems contradictory to the many posts that say to turn it on, or leave it on.
After all, it's probably a setting that doesn't even really matter.
I believe that for most situations, and possibly for 50% of the Sonar population, nVidia graphics cards are to blame for most, if not all, audio crackles and pops caused by latencies. It would be interesting to set up a poll (is that even possible?). I know that I am biased, and a little negative towards the topic, because I am one of the "50%" that's experiencing problems.
Cakewalk disagree with you, but what do they know?  There is an issue with X1c that can cause problems with 64bit DPE turned on (with the ProChannel Console Emulator). Cake have said to turn it off, and they are working on addressing the issue.. I've turned it off and am finding X3c a blast.
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John
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Re: Dumb & Simple Fix for Crackles with X3c
2013/11/06 11:41:47
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Beepster
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Re: Dumb & Simple Fix for Crackles with X3c
2013/11/06 12:04:43
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I've broached this subject before and gotten a couple different answers that I think I understood but they were in relation to specific things. IIRC by engaging the 64 bit option Sonar processes everything internally at 64 bit float as opposed to 32 bit float (correct?) thus giving double the amount of accuracy when making calculations (correct?).
So I guess what I'd like to know is what exactly does this mean for my mixes and what it means for my computer resource consumption?
Does it make things sound better? Does it help FX do their jobs better? How much extra burden does it put on my computer? What computer components does it effect most (CPU, RAM, HDD, etc)?
Perhaps this should be a new thread but because of all the back and forth here on the subject it has me curious. Especially considering some of the weird issues I've had. I keep it enable because I've always been told that it's "better" and my system should be able to handle it but if I can make informed judgment calls on when to use it and when not to and what the benefits/disadvantages of both options are perhaps I can toss it onto my troubleshooting list.
Cheers.
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Lynn
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Re: Dumb & Simple Fix for Crackles with X3c
2013/11/06 12:28:35
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Beepster
I've broached this subject before and gotten a couple different answers that I think I understood but they were in relation to specific things. IIRC by engaging the 64 bit option Sonar processes everything internally at 64 bit float as opposed to 32 bit float (correct?) thus giving double the amount of accuracy when making calculations (correct?).
So I guess what I'd like to know is what exactly does this mean for my mixes and what it means for my computer resource consumption?
Does it make things sound better? Does it help FX do their jobs better? How much extra burden does it put on my computer? What computer components does it effect most (CPU, RAM, HDD, etc)?
Perhaps this should be a new thread but because of all the back and forth here on the subject it has me curious. Especially considering some of the weird issues I've had. I keep it enable because I've always been told that it's "better" and my system should be able to handle it but if I can make informed judgment calls on when to use it and when not to and what the benefits/disadvantages of both options are perhaps I can toss it onto my troubleshooting list.
Cheers.
That's a question many of us would like to know. The 64 bit DP engine was advertised for years as the reason why CW was ahead of Pro Tools and several other DAWs. Yet, now CW tells us to disregard it until they get it fixed. I've seen so many conflicting opinions on this over the last several days that I have no idea what to believe. I'm still staying with X3b until the dust settles.
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John
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Re: Dumb & Simple Fix for Crackles with X3c
2013/11/06 12:29:37
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CW will tel you it make things sound better. I'm not so sure it makes much difference. I sure can't tell if its on or not by how it sounds. The thing is that plugins may process at 64 bits internally or 32 bits. Ozone is one that uses 64 bits. What happens when Sonar is processing at 64 bits and the plugins is processing at 32 bits. Sonar will need to drop the bit depth to accommodate the 32 bit processing plugin. This has nothing to do with its native bit depth BTW.
It just seems to me that until all plugins process at 64 bit and Sonar is not required to adjust its bit depth to match, the overall processing on a computer will be greater and thus use more CPU usage on a given task. Turning off 64 bit processing will stop the need for Sonar to constantly adjust bit depth and give one a smoother overall operation.
Some say it really matters I'm not so sure that it does.
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Beepster
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Re: Dumb & Simple Fix for Crackles with X3c
2013/11/06 13:16:32
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☄ Helpfulby Lynn 2013/11/07 00:23:25
@Lynn... Howdy. Hope you've been well (I haven't been perusing the songs forum much lately which will hopefully change soon). I've been watching posts on this release closely. The impression I'm getting is that disabling the 64 bit thingie is mostly to resolve the Console Emulator hum issue. If you don't use the CE it probably wouldn't even come into play but if you do it's definitely something to watch out for. I don't think it is affecting everyone (not sure about that but I think some people have tested it and weren't getting the problem). It does seem a wise move to perhaps at least have a rollback/restore point to X3b considering some of the reported issues with the C patch but again those problems only seem to be affecting certain people and from the fix list it did solve a bunch of other potential problems. Personally I'd look at it from this perspective... Is X3c causing me a problem running with the 64 bit double precision engine enabled? If not no problem. If so am I willing to continue the project without it through to completion (at 32 bit float which from what I was told years ago is overkill as it is but I don't know because I'm n00b)? Seems like a bad idea to turn it on and off willy nilly throughout a project (but again I do not know). Am I willing to open old projects that had 64 bit enabled and switch them to 32 bit (again only if the problem is manifesting itself)? Basically if I were neck deep in the X3 world already (which I currently am not) I'd look at whether the fixes in X3c are fixes I need (but from most reports it was solid) and whether the new issues with X3c are affecting me personally (list of fixes here... http://www.cakewalk.com/support/kb/reader.aspx/2007013331). If the C patch were affecting things negatively AND the 64 bit disable fix was the solution AND I wasn't willing to disable it for the entirety of my projects I would probably just stick with the B patch because at the pace the Bakers are going you know the D patch is likely gonna come pretty soon. Sticky issue for sure but when it comes right down to it if B is working for you then I'd say let it work for you and wait for D. tl;dr... If it ain't broke don't fix it. ;-)
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John
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Re: Dumb & Simple Fix for Crackles with X3c
2013/11/06 13:35:58
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Beep you're putting too much importance on a feature that may not be all that important.
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Beepster
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Re: Dumb & Simple Fix for Crackles with X3c
2013/11/06 13:38:30
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John
CW will tel you it make things sound better. I'm not so sure it makes much difference. I sure can't tell if its on or not by how it sounds. The thing is that plugins may process at 64 bits internally or 32 bits. Ozone is one that uses 64 bits. What happens when Sonar is processing at 64 bits and the plugins is processing at 32 bits. Sonar will need to drop the bit depth to accommodate the 32 bit processing plugin. This has nothing to do with its native bit depth BTW.
It just seems to me that until all plugins process at 64 bit and Sonar is not required to adjust its bit depth to match, the overall processing on a computer will be greater and thus use more CPU usage on a given task. Turning off 64 bit processing will stop the need for Sonar to constantly adjust bit depth and give one a smoother overall operation.
Some say it really matters I'm not so sure that it does.
Interesting. Still don't really get it but if having it engaged has things flopping around to different bit depths... well IDK. Most things I use are 64 bit but because of not knowing exactly whether that setting actually affects synths/effects or is just processing the audio or herding smurfs in another dimension it's difficult to approach that setting with any kind of confidence. All I can assume is if I'm giving my processor/computer the ability to make more accurate calculations then it would mean less rounding which would mean more accurate audio results. It all makes me wonder though... with tape the little bits of metal getting scattered around were more accurate than digital for a while because it didn't have the rounding limitations. At 64 or 32 or even 24 how much more accurate could tape possibly be? Even if the tape were like a foot thick or a MILE thick and totally saturated with metal filings? How much can our puny human ears actually hear of that? Apparently I've got hyper sensitive ears and I hear crap that seemingly no one else does (which is surprisingly because of the abuse I've put them through). Like I can definitely hear the CE's effect on even an individual track where other can hardly hear it on an entire mix. If even I can't hear it what's the point? I mean I haven't done a/b's but maybe I will. I mean I can hear a difference between 16 bit and 24 bit. I can hear a difference between 48khz and 96khz. But 32 bit and 64 bit? IDK... I doubt it. However even if I can't hear it what does it mean for a professional mastering session? What does it mean for the gradual degradation of sound quality as it goes through the process of being converted to mp3's or some hipster kid recording to a cassette so they can walk around with their vintage boombox? What does it mean for stamping it on vinyl? What does it mean for future generations a hundred years from now listening to it like we listen old Robert Johnson records and say "Damn, dog! That sounds like shyote!" All things the Beepster thinks about... but it is quite possible I am completely insane. lol
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Beepster
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Re: Dumb & Simple Fix for Crackles with X3c
2013/11/06 13:40:27
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John
Beep you're putting too much importance on a feature that may not be all that important.
Ha!!! You'll love my follow up post then. lolololol ;-p Edit: ...and I don't really worry about it too much. I've always just left it turned on as recommended. I don't THINK it causes me any problems but I would like to understand it more. Seems pretty sciency and stuff though. Perhaps beyond what I can absorb. This seems more the realm of the bitflippers and DrewFx's of the world. Not lowly Beepses.
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stevec
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Re: Dumb & Simple Fix for Crackles with X3c
2013/11/06 14:20:10
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FWIW, normally there's no harm in leaving it enabled, other than perhaps a slight bit of resource overhead. The big question is, and always has been, does it make any kind of audible difference whatsoever? Good luck getting a definitive answer on that one. Which is why I think John is essentially saying "don't worry about it" - that extra precision isn't going to be as audible as a 60Hz hum! One thing to keep in mind with this preference is that it applies to real-time playback. When you export audio you also have the option to enable or disable 64bit double precision, regardless of how the preference is set. I personally believe that if it has any relevance at all it'll be here and not during playback, since exports are what the rest of the world will hear. So if the project I'm exporting is something that I think might benefit from that extra precision in any fashion, right or wrong, then I'll enable it during export. Why not?
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John
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Re: Dumb & Simple Fix for Crackles with X3c
2013/11/06 14:23:10
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Tape was never accurate. Thats why a second gen tape did not sound as good as the first. Digital can make unlimited copies without degradation where tape can't.
All the little iron dust particles that made up tape was as variable as water. It got fluffed off with each pass plus you didn't even have to use for it go bad. Tape would become brittle and separate the substrate from the binder. There was no real archiving because each time you made a copy you lost data. Than if the tape recorder was just slightly out of alignment all hell could result. Now we have people touting the sound of tape and they forget that it was darn hard to get a really good recording.
Have you ever looked at a video tape and compared it to a digital HD Blue ray disk? If you think about it that difference is what audio tape offers in comparison to digital audio on a hard disk.
Tape was and is an awful medium for audio or video. But it was all we had.
I should stop now because it really upsets me when a reference to tape is made without a curse also applied.
And don't get me started on digital tape either. LOL
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Lynn
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Re: Dumb & Simple Fix for Crackles with X3c
2013/11/06 14:35:52
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Hi, Beep. I find this subject to be very interesting. Since the Console Emulator was introduced in X2, I've been using it on every project, and I have fallen in love with it because I perceive it to add depth to my mixes and has an analog vibe that was lacking. I'm grateful that CW quickly found that turning off the 64 bit engine allowed users to use X3c with their CE's. However, I noticed since then that the moderators have been largely silent on this issue, especially since it conflicts with their advertising philosophy over the last 5 years. If they come on here and say that it doesn't make any difference in the overall sound of a project, then they negate their advertising.
I've heard nothing but OPINIONS since then, but nothing that I would really call concrete evidence. I've been asked to do blindfold listening tests to determine whether or not the 64 bit engine is really necessary, but that's not persuasive to me because I don't have "golden ears" nor the world's best monitor system. So, my judgement is based on how stable and solid the processing is overall. Right now, I'm rock solid with X3b using the 64 bit engine, the Tape Emulator, and Console Emulator, but not with X3c. So, I'm hoping that CW issues a patch before they come out with X3d, and soon! They've done this in the past, and I'm hoping they can do it again.
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amiller
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Re: Dumb & Simple Fix for Crackles with X3c
2013/11/06 14:45:47
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From Cake's website:SONAR Core Technology and 64 bit Double Precision EngineThere’s a reason SONAR just sounds better. SONAR's industry-first, end-to-end, 64-bit double precision floating point mix engine allows you to mix with sonic clarity using a suite of versatile effects, powerful mixing tools, and endless routing possibilities. The 64-bit audio mix engine means you are mixing with the best audio quality in the industry today. The 64-bit engine is featured in SONAR X1 Studio and Producer only.  Best of all, you can take advantage of this audio engine on both 32-bit and 64-bit PCs giving you unmatched audio quality with spacious amounts of headroom and footroom through extended dynamic range. SONAR X1 also features native support for 64-bit floating point audio files, allowing you to import, stream, and render tracks and mixes at the highest quality available in the industry. The 64-bit Double Precision Engine provides greater resolution, meaning more accurate audio reproduction and more headroom. You'll especially notice the benefits of the 64-bit Double Precision Engine when working in large projects containing many audio tracks and plugs-ins. Your chances of clipping will be significantly reduced. The 64-bit signal path includes plug-ins and buses. SONAR sends and receives 64-bit data to and from all plug-ins that accept 64-bit data. Combine this 64-bit data chain with SONAR’s line of Linear Phase accurate audio effects and you have true a mastering environment. If a plug-in requires 32-bit data, SONAR will automatically handle the conversation. Partial list of SONAR’s 64-bit effects and instruments: - ProChannel
- LP-64 EQ Linear Phase Mastering EQ
- LP-64 Multiband Linear Phase Mastering Compressor
- TS-64 Transient Shaper
- TL-64 Tube Leveler
- VC-64 Vintage Channel
- Roland V-Vocal 1.5
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- Rapture LE
- Session Drummer 3
RAWK!!! . SONAR Platinum: 2017.10
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Splat 
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Re: Dumb & Simple Fix for Crackles with X3c
2013/11/06 14:53:09
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I still think having a performance improvement by playing Grand Theft Auto 5 at the same time as recording is a bit of a scoop....
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Beepster
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Re: Dumb & Simple Fix for Crackles with X3c
2013/11/06 15:02:23
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@stevec... Yeah, I don't see any spikes in my perf module so I assume it's okay but who knows. For stuff like that I just try to go with defaults or highest quality until it causes a problem. Does it help? I have no friggen' clue but that's what makes me wonder and I guess as I get all the other more rudimentary questions about audio out of the way my mind wanders to things like this. It truly is a touch of insanity but at least it's putting my obsessive nature to something useful, yanno? ;-)
@John... Fair enough. The only real first hand experience I have with producing with tape was years ago (I was like 13 or some crap) when me and my much older bandmates would rent one of those Fostex 4 track dealies that recorded to cassette. Tons of ping ponging, minimal (and crappy) effects, exporting to tape decks, endlessly scouring the manual to figure out what the heck we were doing, etc... and even then the drummer was dealing with most of it and the results weren't all that great. Otherwise it was all in fancy studios getting recorded to 2 inch or ADAT with real producers who were doing all the work. I never really understood it, still don't and at this point don't really care because it seems to be a dead art. I know guys who are still obsessed with tape and I figured there was a reason for it but now I realize that the digital stuff likely surpasses it all which was kind of my point. Forget any hardware benefits of tape consoles (which seemingly can be replaced by digital plugins anyway for FAR less cost and hassle)... at what point did digital exceed analog? 16 bit? 24 bit? 32 bit? And how far can we go with it? The human ear is a limited physical entity but how limited? I doubt we've even come close to exceeded what the human mind can process but the human ear seems to be the choke point... or is it? We are an evolving species. Maybe with the more accurate recordings of the modern era and the fact that everyone seems to have access to them maybe in a couple thousand years our hearing will be far more accurate through the process of evolution. Maybe then the difference between 32 and 64 bit will be very noticeable. Not that anyone will likely be listening to my crummy metal tunes a thousand years from now but music being produced today that ends up being considered culturally and historically significant will be and the higher bit depths will matter. Just like the Robert Johnson comparison I made earlier (I'm on the RJ kick because I've been listening to a bunch of that stuff the past few days). Perhaps if the engineers of those recordings realized the impact they would have they would have opted for the most advanced tech of the time.
Again really it's nuthin' to do with nuthin'. Just mumbling to myself as I let a bunch of other concepts I've been studying settle into the long term memory of my brain and plotting my next moves for the project I'm currently working (which I should probably get my arse in gear on today... lol). Rambling about inanities helps me think. This thread just happened to be the victim of today's chaotic Beepisms.
;-p
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John
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Re: Dumb & Simple Fix for Crackles with X3c
2013/11/06 15:28:23
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stevec
FWIW, normally there's no harm in leaving it enabled, other than perhaps a slight bit of resource overhead. The big question is, and always has been, does it make any kind of audible difference whatsoever? Good luck getting a definitive answer on that one. Which is why I think John is essentially saying "don't worry about it" - that extra precision isn't going to be as audible as a 60Hz hum!
One thing to keep in mind with this preference is that it applies to real-time playback. When you export audio you also have the option to enable or disable 64bit double precision, regardless of how the preference is set. I personally believe that if it has any relevance at all it'll be here and not during playback, since exports are what the rest of the world will hear. So if the project I'm exporting is something that I think might benefit from that extra precision in any fashion, right or wrong, then I'll enable it during export. Why not?
Excellent point Steve about the export. Good post overall too. As to what will be used for audio in the future. When quantum computing is in every home this whole discussion will be moot. 50 quantum bits is greater in storage capacity than that of the entire universe.
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drewfx1
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Re: Dumb & Simple Fix for Crackles with X3c
2013/11/06 15:29:31
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Lynn
I've heard nothing but OPINIONS since then, but nothing that I would really call concrete evidence. I've been asked to do blindfold listening tests to determine whether or not the 64 bit engine is really necessary, but that's not persuasive to me because I don't have "golden ears" nor the world's best monitor system.
Oh I see. When I did an export both ways in your other thread and posted the measurements showing most of the 32bit errors often don't accumulate to the point that they will even make it into 24bit output (much less be audible), you consider that an "opinion"? It's very simple: 1. If we go through the math we can see that the errors won't accumulate to the point of being audible. 2. If we take quantitative measurements, we will find that the errors are not at a level that would be audible. 3. If we do double blind testing in a controlled test, we will find that the errors are not audible. What would you consider "concrete evidence"? If you insist that everyone including the "true believers" agree that it isn't audible, then I'm afraid you're going to be out of luck. The only reason this is controversial is that people would rather argue than do controlled tests. And if I do the tests (as I have done), people who don't like the results just ignore them. And most of the time, the descriptions of what people claim to hear doesn't much match what the errors would sound like if they were audible anyway.
 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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Beepster
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Re: Dumb & Simple Fix for Crackles with X3c
2013/11/06 15:44:30
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I believe you Drew. I'm not smart enough to test that stuff myself nor really understand it but it does make sense to me that perhaps we've moved past the point where such precise calculations really don't matter to our limited ears. I swear I can hear a difference between 16bit and 24 but beyond that.... I don't think so. Even at those lower depths I may be imagining it anyway. I was just being silly with my ramblings about us evolving Ferengi ears.
Perhaps if I ever get a dog he'll appreciate the difference in my bit depth selection. Then again subjecting animals to my noise might be considered cruel. ;-)
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Lynn
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Re: Dumb & Simple Fix for Crackles with X3c
2013/11/06 16:00:15
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drewfx1
Lynn
I've heard nothing but OPINIONS since then, but nothing that I would really call concrete evidence. I've been asked to do blindfold listening tests to determine whether or not the 64 bit engine is really necessary, but that's not persuasive to me because I don't have "golden ears" nor the world's best monitor system.
Oh I see. When I did an export both ways in your other thread and posted the measurements showing most of the 32bit errors often don't accumulate to the point that they will even make it into 24bit output (much less be audible), you consider that an "opinion"?
It's very simple:
1. If we go through the math we can see that the errors won't accumulate to the point of being audible.
2. If we take quantitative measurements, we will find that the errors are not at a level that would be audible.
3. If we do double blind testing in a controlled test, we will find that the errors are not audible.
What would you consider "concrete evidence"? If you insist that everyone including the "true believers" agree that it isn't audible, then I'm afraid you're going to be out of luck.
The only reason this is controversial is that people would rather argue than do controlled tests. And if I do the tests (as I have done), people who don't like the results just ignore them. And most of the time, the descriptions of what people claim to hear doesn't much match what the errors would sound like if they were audible anyway.
Drew, I appreciated the tests that you did on my thread. That's the only evidence that I've seen that seems credible. Now, I, personally, don't want to spend time doing my own tests because time is limited, and I'd rather make music. I'll take your word for it. Your test seems to go against CW's own words (per amiller's post above), and that is where I get confused. But, don't think that I don't value your time and input. If CW is slow to release a patch or an update, then I'll likely convert to X3c just to see how it handles. If it turns out that there is no audible difference nor hangups in processing, then you may very well have debunked CW's theory and advertising campaign for the last 5 years. Again, I've not seen anybody from CW debate this. P.S.- I think that I may be chagrined with myself for spending a lot of money to upgrade my equipment for 64 bits when it may not have been necessary. Nobody likes to feel "had".
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drewfx1
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Re: Dumb & Simple Fix for Crackles with X3c
2013/11/06 16:56:04
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Lynn
If it turns out that there is no audible difference nor hangups in processing, then you may very well have debunked CW's theory and advertising campaign for the last 5 years. Again, I've not seen anybody from CW debate this.
They tend to be fairly careful in their wording:
...unmatched audio quality with spacious amounts of headroom and footroom through extended dynamic range
The 64-bit Double Precision Engine provides greater resolution, meaning more accurate audio reproduction and more headroom.
This is all absolutely true, but note that there is no mention of audibility or the fact that 32 bit single precision already provide hundreds of dB's of excess headroom and dynamic range.
You'll especially notice the benefits of the 64-bit Double Precision Engine when working in large projects containing many audio tracks and plugs-ins.
Um, how large? How many tracks? Theoretically if you have enough tracks the errors will accumulate, but they accumulate very slowly. Oh, and I should mention that the errors accumulate on a per sample basis (i.e. not over time) and any tracks that are muted or silent for a given sample don't count. And if you had a LOT (and when I say "a LOT", I mean more than you are likely imagining) of tracks sounding all at once, how likely are you to be able to pick out tiny artifacts that are much quieter than your actual audio anyway?
Your chances of clipping will be significantly reduced.
This is hysterical, because though technically true, you have no remotely realistic chance of clipping to begin with - the amount of headroom with 32bit float is already unfathomable from an audio perspective. I think the fact they they even make this claim speaks for itself.
In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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Beepster
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Re: Dumb & Simple Fix for Crackles with X3c
2013/11/06 17:29:01
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☄ Helpfulby CakeAlexS 2013/11/06 17:35:29
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Beepster
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Re: Dumb & Simple Fix for Crackles with X3c
2013/11/06 18:12:23
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You know what... I just remember a whole pile of smart dudes here telling me ages ago to leave that 64 bit thingie unchecked until export. Forgot about that one.
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stevec
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Re: Dumb & Simple Fix for Crackles with X3c
2013/11/06 18:13:40
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Lynn
P.S.- I think that I may be chagrined with myself for spending a lot of money to upgrade my equipment for 64 bits when it may not have been necessary. Nobody likes to feel "had".
FWIW, upgrading to use 64bit SONAR and 64bit plugins is an entirely different discussion than the 64bit Double Precision preference.
SteveC https://soundcloud.com/steve-cocchi http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=39163 SONAR Platinum x64, Intel Q9300 (2.5Ghz), Asus P5N-D, Win7 x64 SP1, 8GB RAM, 1TB internal + ESATA + USB Backup HDDs, ATI Radeon HD5450 1GB RAM + dual ViewSonic VA2431wm Monitors; Focusrite 18i6 (ASIO); Komplete 9, Melodyne Studio 4, Ozone 7 Advanced, Rapture Pro, GPO5, Valhalla Plate, MJUC comp, MDynamic EQ, lots of other freebie VST plugins, synths and Kontakt libraries
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jb101
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Re: Dumb & Simple Fix for Crackles with X3c
2013/11/06 18:25:37
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stevec
Lynn
P.S.- I think that I may be chagrined with myself for spending a lot of money to upgrade my equipment for 64 bits when it may not have been necessary. Nobody likes to feel "had".
FWIW, upgrading to use 64bit SONAR and 64bit plugins is an entirely different discussion than the 64bit Double Precision preference.
Steve, you have added several good posts to this thread, as usual. I think many people are getting confused about 64 bit operating systems/programs/plugs and Sonar's 64 bit Double Precision Engine. I would only advise that forum members who don't understand the difference, please don't advise others on it.
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Lynn
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Re: Dumb & Simple Fix for Crackles with X3c
2013/11/06 18:43:33
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jb101
stevec
Lynn
P.S.- I think that I may be chagrined with myself for spending a lot of money to upgrade my equipment for 64 bits when it may not have been necessary. Nobody likes to feel "had".
FWIW, upgrading to use 64bit SONAR and 64bit plugins is an entirely different discussion than the 64bit Double Precision preference.
I think many people are getting confused about 64 bit operating systems/programs/plugs and Sonar's 64 bit Double Precision Engine.
I would only advise that forum members who don't understand the difference, please don't advise others on it.
Yes, I'm entirely confused by that difference. Is there anyone out there that can explain that difference to a "dummy"?
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drewfx1
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Re: Dumb & Simple Fix for Crackles with X3c
2013/11/06 19:48:12
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Lynn
jb101
I think many people are getting confused about 64 bit operating systems/programs/plugs and Sonar's 64 bit Double Precision Engine.
Yes, I'm entirely confused by that difference. Is there anyone out there that can explain that difference to a "dummy"?
64 bit operating systems/programs/plugs = 64 bit memory addressing. More bits means you can address more memory locations. Remember when libraries had card catalogs (oops, I'm dating myself)?  You can think of 64 bit memory addressing as lots more cabinets full of cards so that you can reference lots more books (memory addresses). The 64 bit engine refers to mathematical precision - sort of the difference between 12.27/4.73 = 2.6 vs. 12.27/4.73 = 2.5940803382663847780126849894292
In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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bobguitkillerleft
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Re: Dumb & Simple Fix for Crackles with X3c
2013/11/06 21:22:10
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Hi all,
I'm really confused by the suggestion to "uncheck the 64 bit double precision engine",as I run everything at "64" in Prefferences/Audio Data/All Projects/File Bit Depths,just for the simple fact that,"it allows me to do it so,if it works why not"?
I have to admit I did roll back to X3b,as I was getting some weird "never ending"-electronic"she's about to blow up"type noise,that vanished,after I rolled back to X3b.
Although I run my simple projects at 512,1024[all 64 bit],I just checked,by reimporting a project for messing with[mastering?]and my VS-100 played back perfectly with 64 samples 9.1ms RTLatency,which surprised even me.
One of the things that made me pick Sonar,was cakewalks 64 bit capability,but now we're being told to uncheck the "64 bit double precision engine"????
I do hope this just temporary,as although at 2 1/2 years with computers total,I definitely still consider myself to be a newb with "all things digital".
Apart from wishing I could set up my plugin list like I had in X2[obviously out of the question,now there is VST3]I'm really liking X3 and I'm super glad I just made it before the price changed[so my email's kept saying-"Last Days,Hurry Up"],or something similar,and I think I prefer the "Tape Emulator" PC module,over the waves Kramer Tape,but like a lot of things,maybe tomorrow I'll think different?
I'm definitely confused about the 64 bit thing though,as I said,it was one of the reasons I picked Sonar.
Cheers
Bob
https://soundcloud.com/rks26https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hitmen Lenovo W540 Factoryrefurb SONAR PLATINUM,Ozone 7 N.I. KA6 Komplete 9 SSD4 Platinum Epi L/H LP Custom Headstock broken twice and fixed.Gibson L/H Les Paul 2010 Wine Red Studio stupid Right Hand Vol.Tone for Left Hand?LH84Ibanez RS135 gen.FloydRose JB Marshall 100w 2203 4x25w Celestion Green backs "You are what you is"-Frank Zappa "But I'm gonna wave my freak flag high"-Jimi Hendrix
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Anderton
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Re: Dumb & Simple Fix for Crackles with X3c
2013/11/06 21:34:37
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Guess I wasn't clear about a few things, sorry.. 1. I usually leave the 64-bit engine on, but after installing X3c, I noticed some people experienced some problems by leaving it on. So, I turned it off. When Cakewalk gives the "all clear," I'll turn it back on again. 2. One my desktop, I usually use an !/O setting of 512. But hex (audio) guitar seems to prefer 1024. 3. Hex guitar: I was a fan of Gibson's high-tech guitars long before I joined the company, in fact it's probably a reason why I joined the company  ...the first was the HD.6X Pro, which formed the basis of the band EV2 ( here's a clip, love the Pelham Blue guitar color!!) with Brian Hardgroove from Public Enemy. Incidentally, he converted to Sonar recently after excessive frustration with some other DAWs. I then moved on to the Dark Fire and Dusk Tiger guitars, which had dedicated computer interfaces, and finally to the FBX. The interfaces have a stereo out + three stereo outs that appear within Sonar - left is one string of a string pair, right is the other string of the pair. Maybe I should start a thread on why hex guitar is so effing amazing...I think it's a kind of final frontier. If you want to hear some of the cool things you can do with six outputs, several plug-ins, and Sonar, I did a review of the HD.6X Pro for Harmony Central with a bunch of audio examples - scroll down toward the bottom of the article. If there's interest, I'll start a separate thread. Hex guitar is amazing - many of the advantages of synthesizers, but with the organic, expressive possibilities of guitar. You can retrofit existing guitars although of course, it's a little more kludgy than having it built in.
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2:43AM
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Re: Dumb & Simple Fix for Crackles with X3c
2013/11/06 22:53:34
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CakeAlexS
I still think having a performance improvement by playing Grand Theft Auto 5 at the same time as recording is a bit of a scoop....
This is for real.
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Anderton
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Re: Dumb & Simple Fix for Crackles with X3c
2013/11/06 23:25:42
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☄ Helpfulby bobguitkillerleft 2013/11/07 08:15:17
So about 64-bit audio engines...here's my "I think I got this right" response.
My first digital audio experience was Sound Tools on a Mac Plus with a 16-bit audio engine. It didn't take much processing to overrun what 16 bits could calculate, and you could hear the result. On the bright side, you had a built-in fuzztone (whether you wanted it or not).
The original TDM bus was 24 bits of resolution in the I/O and it dithered every time it went back and forth to the bus. The native version of Pro Tools didn't have this limitation, which is why there were those Gearslutz-type threads on "Why does Pro Tools on my laptop sound better than my TDM system?"
IIRC some DAWs made an intermediate step to a 24-bit engine on the way to 32-bit float. Pro Tools was 48 bits fixed and is now 32-bit float.
When Sonar came out with the 64-bit engine, again IIRC, not all DAWs in use had made it to 32-bit floating point. Those that were still using older engines definitely sounded inferior if you were doing lots of calculations with lots of plug-ins, bouncing, etc. Sonar was ahead of the curve with the 64-bit engine, but over time, 32-bit float became standard and provided enough resolution for all practical purposes, so Sonar's lead was not as significant as it had been when the 64-bit engine was introduced.
However, from a theoretical standpoint, 64-bit floating point is as good as it gets. Will you hear a difference compared to 32-bit floating point? Highly doubtful. But somewhere, someone is doing their 2,344th bounce using a reverb plug-in, and is hearing a difference...
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