Guitarhacker
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 24398
- Joined: 12/7/2007
- Location: NC
- Status: offline
Electrical Grounding issues, and why they are dangerous
In the most recent copy of Electrical Contracting and Maintenance Magazine, I ran across this story. It's about replacing non-grounded outlets with 3 prong grounded outlets and not rewiring back to the panel properly. Yes, it is legal still to do this as long as certain conditions and code requirements are followed. It's not the best way to do things though. http://ecmweb.com/contractor/failures-outlet-testing-exposed It caught my eye since the story relates closely to what we all do..... home recording. The side bar story recounts the issues encountered in the rewiring of an older house which had non-grounded electrical outlets. The author was building a studio in the house and hired a licensed electrician to do the work. Be sure to read the sidebar story called Home Studio Horror Story... the link > http://ecmweb.com/contractor/failures-outlet-testing-exposed?page=3 is also included near the very top of the main story. The writer opted to hire a licensed electrician to do the wiring job. The electrician hired, opted to take some short cuts to save time and money and that ended up destroying the studio gear and cost the electrician when it all had to be rewired correctly and the studio equipment replaced. Having been zapped more than once on stage, and seeing a buddy's string touch a light pole and literally melt itself into the plastic nut....... this stuff is real, and it can be dangerous. More than one time I have lost equipment to improperly wired stage outlets. Anyway.... this is some food for thought.
post edited by Guitarhacker - August 21, 13 10:39 AM
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
|
Re: Electrical Grounding issues, and why they are dangerous
August 21, 13 10:55 AM
(permalink)
Seems like the author took the option to have the house wired on the cheap and then had it backfire. It's a good reason why a vendor should avoid customers that opt for the cheap option. I think the electrician made a bad decision to do the work the way it was done originally. I don't think it's helpful to help people take short cuts. The author seems to think that drilling a hole in the wall and doing it the right way was some sort of punishment when in fact he should have just paid to have it done right the first time. Seems like a bunch of dirty laundry. Anyways. best regards, mike
|
Doc_Hollingsworth
Max Output Level: -52.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2289
- Joined: 3/2/2008
- Location: Boise, Idaho
- Status: offline
Re: Electrical Grounding issues, and why they are dangerous
August 21, 13 11:40 AM
(permalink)
Wow I never realized the statistics were so high of getting zapped onstage 70%... Well I can count myself among those....
Doc MacBook Pro 15.4 Retina (mid 2015) Focusrite Clarett 8PreX & OctoPre Logic Pro X 10.2.4/Reason 9.2/Pro Tools 12.7 Long haired dachshund - requisite studio dog (no short hairs need apply - read the sign)
|
jbow
Max Output Level: -0.2 dBFS
- Total Posts : 7601
- Joined: 11/26/2003
- Status: offline
Re: Electrical Grounding issues, and why they are dangerous
August 21, 13 11:45 AM
(permalink)
At my parents house most of the outlets are two prong... so much going on there. I just read the "horror story" wow... I remember playing outside on the deck with the band back in about '66 and getting zapped on the mouth by an SM-57... no fun at ALL. Another thing is loose ground wires. Where we used to live I had a gorrible problem with buzzing, like there was a dimmer switch somewhere. I finally began opening outlet and switch plates... every ground wire was loose. The hot wires were not on screws but stuck into the back of the outles or switch but for some reason the ground wires were on the screws but like I said they were all loose. I went through the house and tightened them all and it helped a LOT. There was another problem at the pole, at the street. I could walk under the power wires servicing the house with a portable radio and it would buzz like crazt under the wires. I called GA Power and they came out, I showed them what was happening, they went up the pole, checked whatever they have up there and actually found a faulty piece, fixed it and that buzz stopped. Frankly I was surprised that they did that but... they did. I use power cnditioners here and they help. Down the road the power is so dirty you cannot even hear AM radio while driving down the road... and our power here is all underground. It is always something. Thanks for the article. J
post edited by jbow - August 21, 13 11:58 AM
Sonar Platinum Studiocat Pro 16G RAM (some bells and whistles) HP Pavilion dm4 1165-dx (i5)-8G RAM Octa-Capture KRK Rokit-8s MIDI keyboards... Control Pad mics. I HATE THIS CMPUTER KEYBARD!
|
Guitarhacker
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 24398
- Joined: 12/7/2007
- Location: NC
- Status: offline
Re: Electrical Grounding issues, and why they are dangerous
August 21, 13 11:49 AM
(permalink)
I guess you could look at it that way. However, in this time and day, most people are trying to get things done as inexpensively as possible..... including most people here..... probably you too. I know that I do. Since most people are not electricians, they simply have to rely on that person's skills that the job is done right, even on the cheap. I fault the electrician for not double checking to be sure the hot and neutral were correct and the installation of the "bootleg" ground was a mistake.... that should never be done. Using a GFCI outlet is the best way to solve a missing ground wire that is legal. Of course pulling a dedicated ground is better but I can attest that from being in this business and facing this very issue, that is not the easiest or the less expensive way. Certainly, rewiring with new cable is the best way. Using a non-contact tester, it is relatively easy to be sure the hot is actually the hot and the neutral is the neutral..... there is no excuse for 120v on a neutral slot in an outlet. Had the electrician taken the time to verify this one issue, the entire destruction of the studio gear would not have happened. When I used to do electrical work on a daily basis, and knew I was working on a 2 wire ungrounded circuit, I was especially careful to ensure the hot and neutral were not reversed when I was finished. Older electricians remember a time when grounds were not common. 2 wires was the standard. Hot & neutral. The service equipment was grounded and the neutral was connected to the ground at the service. As a result, many homes with older wiring may still have this ungrounded wiring in it. Bonding the frame of dryers and ranges used to be a common thing....relying on the neutral wire to be the grounding means. This is known as 3 wire outlets. This is no longer approved on new installs. The new ones are called 4 wire outlets, having a separate ground and neutral wire. However, the older ones are grandfathered and need not be replaced as long as everything else is up to code..... wire size, breaker size, wire condition.....
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
|
Doc_Hollingsworth
Max Output Level: -52.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2289
- Joined: 3/2/2008
- Location: Boise, Idaho
- Status: offline
Re: Electrical Grounding issues, and why they are dangerous
August 21, 13 11:53 AM
(permalink)
I didn't see any indication of going the cheep rout from what I read .. could be lazy too.
Doc MacBook Pro 15.4 Retina (mid 2015) Focusrite Clarett 8PreX & OctoPre Logic Pro X 10.2.4/Reason 9.2/Pro Tools 12.7 Long haired dachshund - requisite studio dog (no short hairs need apply - read the sign)
|
jbow
Max Output Level: -0.2 dBFS
- Total Posts : 7601
- Joined: 11/26/2003
- Status: offline
Re: Electrical Grounding issues, and why they are dangerous
August 21, 13 12:02 AM
(permalink)
A side note... you should never allow electricians or cable guys to run anything through a foundation vent... unless you want a rat problem. The screen is on the vents for a reason. I see it all the time and when I was not paying attention an electrition did it to my house. Within a few months I had to trap rats in the crawlspace and I could see where he ran a wire through the corner of a vent and the rats made the hole bigger... and a rat can get through anything it can get its head through. A huge rat can squeeze through a hole the size of a quarter... Just saying... OK, back on topic, sorry. J
Sonar Platinum Studiocat Pro 16G RAM (some bells and whistles) HP Pavilion dm4 1165-dx (i5)-8G RAM Octa-Capture KRK Rokit-8s MIDI keyboards... Control Pad mics. I HATE THIS CMPUTER KEYBARD!
|
jbow
Max Output Level: -0.2 dBFS
- Total Posts : 7601
- Joined: 11/26/2003
- Status: offline
Re: Electrical Grounding issues, and why they are dangerous
August 21, 13 12:09 AM
(permalink)
Herb, do you know why Atwater-Kent, the king of the radio companies, went out of business? The All-American Five radio circuit. It was cheap to build but the wiring resulted in a hot chassis. A-K refused to build them because they were and are dangerous, only a cardboard back protecting the consumer from 120v. Theradios A-K built were better and they were safe but they couldn't compete with the price of the AM5 and they couldn't stay in business. I've worked on some AM5s, you have to be CAREFUL. Most of the bakelite radios of the 40s and 50s were this type of circuit. They do sound good though! J
Sonar Platinum Studiocat Pro 16G RAM (some bells and whistles) HP Pavilion dm4 1165-dx (i5)-8G RAM Octa-Capture KRK Rokit-8s MIDI keyboards... Control Pad mics. I HATE THIS CMPUTER KEYBARD!
|
Doc_Hollingsworth
Max Output Level: -52.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2289
- Joined: 3/2/2008
- Location: Boise, Idaho
- Status: offline
Re: Electrical Grounding issues, and why they are dangerous
August 21, 13 12:14 AM
(permalink)
jbow A side note... you should never allow electricians or cable guys to run anything through a foundation vent... unless you want a rat problem. The screen is on the vents for a reason. I see it all the time and when I was not paying attention an electrition did it to my house. Within a few months I had to trap rats in the crawlspace and I could see where he ran a wire through the corner of a vent and the rats made the hole bigger... and a rat can get through anything it can get its head through. A huge rat can squeeze through a hole the size of a quarter... Just saying... OK, back on topic, sorry. J
Doe this mean that if you get rats running through the house you can sue the cable guy or electrician for fixing the foundation, floorboards and rat extermination?
Doc MacBook Pro 15.4 Retina (mid 2015) Focusrite Clarett 8PreX & OctoPre Logic Pro X 10.2.4/Reason 9.2/Pro Tools 12.7 Long haired dachshund - requisite studio dog (no short hairs need apply - read the sign)
|
Re: Electrical Grounding issues, and why they are dangerous
August 21, 13 12:38 AM
(permalink)
I hear what you are saying Herb. We just went through our 3 year remodel. The house and my mix room have all new copper 12g wire and fixtures. I got the best guys I could find. I made them aware I don't cut corners. They seem so unaccustomed to being asked to cut corners that it takes a few conversations to convince them that "to code" is just a minimum and I actually want it better than that. After they left I pulled everything apart and fixed a few things... cause I can't sleep at night the other way. I didn't bother telling them about the small details I fixed and over sights I found, and honestly I intend to hire them for phase 6 when I re do the live room. I simply don't know how else to do it. all the best, mike Guitarhacker I guess you could look at it that way. However, in this time and day, most people are trying to get things done as inexpensively as possible..... including most people here..... probably you too. I know that I do. Since most people are not electricians, they simply have to rely on that person's skills that the job is done right, even on the cheap. I fault the electrician for not double checking to be sure the hot and neutral were correct and the installation of the "bootleg" ground was a mistake.... that should never be done. Using a GFCI outlet is the best way to solve a missing ground wire that is legal. Of course pulling a dedicated ground is better but I can attest that from being in this business and facing this very issue, that is not the easiest or the less expensive way. Certainly, rewiring with new cable is the best way. Using a non-contact tester, it is relatively easy to be sure the hot is actually the hot and the neutral is the neutral..... there is no excuse for 120v on a neutral slot in an outlet. Had the electrician taken the time to verify this one issue, the entire destruction of the studio gear would not have happened. When I used to do electrical work on a daily basis, and knew I was working on a 2 wire ungrounded circuit, I was especially careful to ensure the hot and neutral were not reversed when I was finished. Older electricians remember a time when grounds were not common. 2 wires was the standard. Hot & neutral. The service equipment was grounded and the neutral was connected to the ground at the service. As a result, many homes with older wiring may still have this ungrounded wiring in it. Bonding the frame of dryers and ranges used to be a common thing....relying on the neutral wire to be the grounding means. This is known as 3 wire outlets. This is no longer approved on new installs. The new ones are called 4 wire outlets, having a separate ground and neutral wire. However, the older ones are grandfathered and need not be replaced as long as everything else is up to code..... wire size, breaker size, wire condition.....
|
jbow
Max Output Level: -0.2 dBFS
- Total Posts : 7601
- Joined: 11/26/2003
- Status: offline
Re: Electrical Grounding issues, and why they are dangerous
August 21, 13 12:54 AM
(permalink)
Doc_Hollingsworth
jbow A side note... you should never allow electricians or cable guys to run anything through a foundation vent... unless you want a rat problem. The screen is on the vents for a reason. I see it all the time and when I was not paying attention an electrition did it to my house. Within a few months I had to trap rats in the crawlspace and I could see where he ran a wire through the corner of a vent and the rats made the hole bigger... and a rat can get through anything it can get its head through. A huge rat can squeeze through a hole the size of a quarter... Just saying... OK, back on topic, sorry. J
Doe this mean that if you get rats running through the house you can sue the cable guy or electrician for fixing the foundation, floorboards and rat extermination?
Dam rite Doc!! Sue the people who made the floorboards too, and the neighbors who put up a birdfeeder, the maker of the birdfeed, and the cat for not doing it's job. Sue the vent maker, sue everyone. Sue the city for no longer baiting the sewers for rats... you know rats are semi-aquatic and in nature they burrow along rivers, creeks, or lakes and have an opening on the bank and UNDER water... which means... of course... that if you are on a sewer system that a rat can easily come up through your toilet. They do that, just hope you aren't sitting there when they do it... snakes do that too. Nice stuff there... sue the toilet maker and the plumber on general principle. Lawyers, Guns, and Money... Seriously, you can and should make them come back and fix or replace your vent and run their wires in a better way. Use a two piece Tem Vent and run the wire through a small hle in the vent surround, it ain't hard but I think they just don't know any better. J
post edited by jbow - August 21, 13 12:57 AM
Sonar Platinum Studiocat Pro 16G RAM (some bells and whistles) HP Pavilion dm4 1165-dx (i5)-8G RAM Octa-Capture KRK Rokit-8s MIDI keyboards... Control Pad mics. I HATE THIS CMPUTER KEYBARD!
|
Guitarhacker
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 24398
- Joined: 12/7/2007
- Location: NC
- Status: offline
Re: Electrical Grounding issues, and why they are dangerous
August 21, 13 1:10 PM
(permalink)
Good point on the "grounded" chassis issue. I do remember many of the 2 wire radios and some early guitar amps built back in the day relied in the neutral to ground the chassis. This was also before polarized plugs and outlets were widely used. The chassis was isolated from the consumer by the body of the electronic device being made from wood or plastic/bakelite. The hot chassis only "grabbed" you if you were grounded and the cord was reversed in the outlet. I studied electronics back in 1976. TV and radio repair. Our instructor warned us about this very issue you mentioned. Transformer-less chassis ground..... hairy stuff to mess with. Millions made....
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
|
Re: Electrical Grounding issues, and why they are dangerous
August 21, 13 1:12 PM
(permalink)
I fired the first HVAC contractor on my remodel from hell. I gave them a check for the first draw and suggested that I expected it to be returned uncashed. When they asked why, I explained that it was evident that they provided no training for, or supervision of, their employees and the workmanship reflected that circumstance. I sent over some captioned photos hi lighting the most egregious details. Ironically, I occasionally work on their television commercials. ;-) Very Ironically, the last time my wife was called to jury duty it was civil case between an unsatisfied customer and the same HVAC contractor. When they asked my wife if she was familiar with the HVAC business she told the entire story. She explained that we still have captioned photos of the poor workmanship and that they did indeed return the check uncashed. They kicked her out of the courtroom. The owner of the business didn't seem amused. best regards mike
post edited by mike_mccue - August 21, 13 1:14 PM
|
Guitarhacker
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 24398
- Joined: 12/7/2007
- Location: NC
- Status: offline
Re: Electrical Grounding issues, and why they are dangerous
August 21, 13 3:21 PM
(permalink)
funny stuff Mike.... and a cool way to get out of jury duty. I learned to be very cautious about advances for contractors. Personally, I only ask for advances if I get the feeling that a customer is trying to get over on me...... Have me do the job and then not pay. It's a case by case gut feeling determination. As a result, 22 years in business and only have a total of about $1000 that customers beat me on. I had one guy who owed me $450 from a job actually have the brass to call me a few years later to quote a nearly $3000 home security system for him.... I told him it would need to be paid in advance and included the amount owed which I mentioned to him..... never heard from him again....oh yeah... he's a minister at a local church BTW. I normally require nothing down and 100% at completion of the work in a manner satisfactory to the customer. Commercial customers can pay 30/net. If a residential customer balks at the terms, I will sometimes offer them 30/net as well. Again it's gut feeling and intuition. Then there was the carpenters from hell and the roofers from hell...... 2 stories of contractors I hired for some work on my house. Both companies came highly recommended by friends who had them do work for them...... neither will work for me again nor get a recommendation that is favorable. Needless to say I supervise and dole out money very carefully. If they need a deposit, I ask them if they are solvent enough to do the job. Most say yes, of course. To which I reply... then operate on your money and you can trust me to pay you on time. I assure them that I will pay them when the work is completed to my satisfaction and to a certain percentage of the total job. I hold back 10% at the end for 30 days in the event that I have problems after the fact so I know I can get them back to make the final fixes in a timely manner. Some walk away, some don't. I pay on time and they get the job done quickly to get paid.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
|
Re: Electrical Grounding issues, and why they are dangerous
August 21, 13 4:00 PM
(permalink)
Yes, that's a good policy. In my case I gave them a check for the work that they had performed so as to demonstrate that I was not in any way trying to get over on them. I know it's not the normal way of doing things but it worked out. best regards, mike
|
jbow
Max Output Level: -0.2 dBFS
- Total Posts : 7601
- Joined: 11/26/2003
- Status: offline
Re: Electrical Grounding issues, and why they are dangerous
August 21, 13 5:51 PM
(permalink)
Personally, I only ask for advances if I get the feeling that a customer is trying to get over on me...... Have me do the job and then not pay. It's a case by case gut feeling determination. Same here. I have found over the years that there are customers who have madean art of trying to get you to feel sorry for them, some sob story or another. They almost ALWAYS are trouble. Straight up people who want work done and don't quibble about the price are seldom trouble... I tried to tell my wife when she started her business to watch out for people who somehow made you feel like you should give them a break... I am not sure that they conciously do it but the pattern holds, they will be trouble when it comes time to pay and they almost always expect extra service and usually are not happy with anything you do... and it's like you said, a gut feeling, nothing you can really put your finger on but when a prospective customer begins to try to make me feel like I should give them a break a BIG RED LIGHT goes on. WAIT... newsflash... I just saw an Al Jazeera America commercial on FOX News Channel (of all places). I think they are wasting money there... bizarro. Yep, you learn to read customers after a while. J
Sonar Platinum Studiocat Pro 16G RAM (some bells and whistles) HP Pavilion dm4 1165-dx (i5)-8G RAM Octa-Capture KRK Rokit-8s MIDI keyboards... Control Pad mics. I HATE THIS CMPUTER KEYBARD!
|
craigb
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 41704
- Joined: 1/28/2009
- Location: The Pacific Northwestshire
- Status: offline
Re: Electrical Grounding issues, and why they are dangerous
August 21, 13 7:09 PM
(permalink)
Always in my gig bag when I'm helping out a friend's band - always used along with Furman power conditioners.
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
|
Re: Electrical Grounding issues, and why they are dangerous
August 21, 13 7:34 PM
(permalink)
The point of the article linked by the O.P. was that an "all good" result from that particular tool is inconclusive when it is used on the wiring scheme that was described as problematic. best regards, mike
|
Guitarhacker
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 24398
- Joined: 12/7/2007
- Location: NC
- Status: offline
Re: Electrical Grounding issues, and why they are dangerous
August 22, 13 3:52 PM
(permalink)
craigb
 Always in my gig bag when I'm helping out a friend's band - always used along with Furman power conditioners.
The entire point of the main story above is that those cheap testers don't always catch the serious problems in the wiring. That said.... I do have, and use 2 of those things. One is normal and one is a GFCI tester as well. I had an inspector plug one of those in on a GFCI 2 wire, ungrounded circuit I had worked on. He pushed the button to trip the GFCI..... it didn't trip. He was going to fail the job, until the senior inspector explained to him that it doesn't always trip on an ungrounded circuit, but it's still considered OK...... and safe. Trust them a little bit but not completely.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
|