John T
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look
2015/01/23 18:25:50
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In the interest of fairness, I think Cakewalk's own stuff is not very guilty of this, these days. Something like this is the ideal mid-point between Valhalla-style clarity and like-a-rack-unit familiarity: 
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SteveStrummerUK
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look
2015/01/23 18:26:24
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stickman393
I've posted my thoughts on this before:
I hate knobs - A modest proposal about virtual hardware UIs
Excellent article, you make a lot of sense. I'm guessing that Waves UI I posted above meets all the requirements you listed. I just opened it up again and (as you mentioned) double clicking on a button allows you to type in the exact value you require. 
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SteveStrummerUK
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look
2015/01/23 18:33:32
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YolandaSupercute
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look
2015/01/23 18:38:26
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John T
While I'm on the subject, and relevant to citizens of this parish, here is, with honestly no desire to offend, my number one least favourite UI design of all time:
The VC-64 was technically and sonically superb. But that UI slows me down so much I hardly ever used it. It successfully looks like a generic piece of ace high-end vintage gear. And renders itself near-unusable in the attempt.
Yep (where is Yep, anyway, I miss that guy). Every time I go to use VC I say to myself "It sounds so good, let's give it another chance!" Then I open it up, look at it, and can only spend time choosing a preset and pumping up the gain before I want to just start...
post edited by YolandaSupercute - 2015/01/23 19:05:59
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stickman393
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look
2015/01/23 19:06:00
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☄ Helpfulby John T 2015/01/23 19:12:38
Waves "gets it". I've been a fan of Valhalla since I first saw it. And if all plugins used UI like that used in the Cakewalk XX-64 family, I wouldn't have written the article in the first place, although there is still room for improvement.
Many vendors are making progress on this issue, since I wrote and revised the article, but there's still a lot of repeat offenders out there :-)
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jackson white
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look
2015/01/23 19:09:14
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☄ Helpfulby John T 2015/01/23 19:12:53
@ microapp - You may want to check out MeldaProductions.
http://www.meldaproduction.com/plugins/effects.php
They offer a clean AND consistent UI across a wide range of useful plug-ins. User preferences include a few different skins for the UI, but nothing in the photo-realistic vintage style. Perhaps an opportunity for their marketing dept.
Concur with John T on the CW VX/PX plugins. Very easy and intuitive to use.
The VC-64 was surprisingly good for what it does and might be worth an upgrade effort even though we're told that path is not possible. Perhaps CW will reinvent for Sonar Pt without the steampunk aesthetic. Couldn't help thinking I was in a Jules Verne novel every time I used it with Captain Nemo on deck for overdubs. All that was missing were a few random hissing and bubbly effects while twisting the knobs.
-------------------- Some pieces of wood with wires and bits of metal stuck in them, silicon and plastic
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Splat 
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look
2015/01/23 19:11:41
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☄ Helpfulby John T 2015/01/23 19:13:00
I'm not really worried, but if everything looked like quadcurve or fabfilter I would be happy.
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John T
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look
2015/01/23 19:14:51
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YolandaSupercute
(where is Yep, anyway, I miss that guy).
Yep departed these shores a few years ago for the People's Republic of Reaper. He has a fantastic long thread on their forums about non-DAW-specific production and engineering. A smart guy, for sure.
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YolandaSupercute
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look
2015/01/23 19:23:13
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John T
Yep departed these shores a few years ago for the People's Republic of Reaper. He has a fantastic long thread on their forums about non-DAW-specific production and engineering. A smart guy, for sure. Ah thanks John T...its been a while...guess I gotta revamp my "most trusted Forumites" list...
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John T
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look
2015/01/23 19:27:18
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If you're interested - and I know I shouldn't be sending anyone over the border into enemy territory, though I'd argue this is a minor transgression - the thread is called "Why do your recordings sound like ass?" Google that and you'll find it.
It's seriously one of the best discussions I've ever read about record production (with particular, but not exclusive attention paid to the home studio). At least until it becomes a troll-fest about 20 or so pages in.
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Guitarpima
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look
2015/01/23 20:08:54
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Your banging your head. Software designers are aesthetically insane. They think eye strain is a good thing. They must get kickbacks from Advil and Tylenol as well as opticians.
Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy. Win 7 x64 X2 Intel DX58SO, Intel i7 920 2.66ghz 12gb DDR3 ASUS ATI EAH5750 650w PSU 4x WD HDs 320gb DVD, DVD RW Eleven Rack, KRK Rokit 8s and 10s sub
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SongCraft
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look
2015/01/23 20:33:32
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IMHO, hardware with all those cool dials are all nice and dany hands on old-school technology (which I love) but that does not translate logically for today's ITB virtual recording studio (DAW)... {read on} especially as we move towards more advanced UI such as, Touch -- think along the lines of the movie Minority Report. Yes, just one big mother load of a screen with pip technology integrated  positioned on a flexible portable unit (frame) to allow me to adjust from flat-top (table mode) to straight-up vertical mode... the vertical mode is ideal for anyone who prefers to stand-up and wiggle their heinie all whilst they tweak and play with SONAR.  Hey, don't laugh, vertical mode (standing position) is actually a much healthier (physical) workflow / workout. Virtual mixers such as Prop/head Record, hmmm, all those cute little tiny itsy bitsy dials? Arghhhhhhhh... sure that's fine if you have an awesome controller interface but why bother if as pointed out (Minority Report) is where the future is heading. Touch is here and it's going to get better and more affordable. That and above said; in regards to the UI, it makes more sense to get rid of dials and replace them with commonsense / cleverly designed UI to make it way more user-friendly; both visually much clearer, graphically informative for example, pan, volume, filters and envelope parameters don't need no virtual hardware faux-asinine annoyances such as little dials, dang it, just point and swipe directly on the parameters and/or graph.... This in essence frees up a lot of valuable screen space to allow more room for clearer more informative UI feedback (details) and workflow. Developers have been almost locked into this 'modelling based on old hardware technology' all whilst wasting valuable work-space / screen-space as explained earlier.
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microapp
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look
2015/01/23 22:30:33
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jackson white
@ microapp - You may want to check out MeldaProductions.
http://www.meldaproduction.com/plugins/effects.php
They offer a clean AND consistent UI across a wide range of useful plug-ins. User preferences include a few different skins for the UI, but nothing in the photo-realistic vintage style. Perhaps an opportunity for their marketing dept.
Nice. Do you use any of these and if so how do they sound.
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cclarry
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look
2015/01/23 22:32:52
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pwalpwal
it's all about familiarity
You know what they say about that roight? 
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microapp
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look
2015/01/23 22:34:43
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DragonBlood
microapp
One reason I like the Sonitus plugs is that they typically have a modern look with linear controls and bar-graph meters.
I love the graph on the Sonitus compressor.
Dude, anything Sonitus looks like Windows 98. That's hardly modern at all but I tend to gravitate towards things like the QuadCurve EQ and Waves H-EQ Hybrid Equalizer
http://www.waves.com/plugins/h-eq-hybrid-equalizer
I need eye candy and delicious looking buttons.
I was not referring to the stylistic look of Sonitus but rather to the use of linear controls/meters and graphs over the vintage pots, switches and electro-mechanical VU meters.
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microapp
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look
2015/01/23 22:40:22
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Cookie Jarvis
Personally I hate the move to cartoon GUIs...I think it's an age thing ;) I'm used to real equipment and plugin interfaces that try to emulate the real thing just make more sense to me.
Bill
I started designing hardware in 1972, software in 1975 on the very first microprocessors. I worked for MCI in 1977-1980 on their multi-track tape machines. I don't think it is an age thing.
post edited by microapp - 2015/01/23 23:00:22
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microapp
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look
2015/01/23 22:43:39
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scook
microapp
No they would sell more because you would use the vintage skin and I would use the techno skin.
It is no skin(!) off their back to provide both since it is not a physical thing. It is only code.
Not sure having Cakewalk messing around skinning 3rd party plug-ins is a good use of time/money. I can think of a few things which may be more useful.
I am not suggesting Cakewalk skin 3rd party plugs. I am suggesting the 3rd parties provide skins. Cake could provide skins for their own plugs or insist on skins for licensed plugs.
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microapp
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look
2015/01/23 22:57:31
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cclarry
pwalpwal
it's all about familiarity
You know what they say about that roight?
Yes, it breeds contempt. I seriously doubt that a majority of Sonar users have ever been in a high-end studio (not that many left) or used the actual gear that many plug-ins emulate. Fairchild 670 goes for $40K-$60K if you can find one. So their familiarity is with the plug-ins and the way they look. Again, give us the option and provide various skins to suit one's own taste.
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bapu
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look
2015/01/23 23:05:40
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When I am listening to a mix in the car it's not important that the drums were made with BFD/Superior Drummer both of which have almost no "character" in their display of a kit vs. say EZDrummer which has very detailed images of the kit. Now when I'm mixing, seeing EZDrummer I know I respond more favorably. Karyn is (partially) right. People do respond visually but as you (microapp) point out, you respond to graphs and numbers, whereas others (me) respond to a UI with bakelite chips in the knob. You say Sonitus and I say UAD/et.al. In the end what we all strive for is how the mix sounds in the car, roight?
post edited by bapu - 2015/01/23 23:12:29
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bapu
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look
2015/01/23 23:13:44
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microapp
Cookie Jarvis
Personally I hate the move to cartoon GUIs...I think it's an age thing ;) I'm used to real equipment and plugin interfaces that try to emulate the real thing just make more sense to me.
Bill
I started designing hardware in 1972, software in 1975 on the very first microprocessors.
I worked for MCI in 1977-1980 on their multi-track tape machines.
I don't think it is an age thing.
Agree. I've been in software development since 1978 (24x80 CRTs). But see my post above.
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mixmkr
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look
2015/01/23 23:22:44
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I have to think there are many more people that are thrilled to be able to own some of this vintage stuff, that they've only just read about on the internet, because words like Fairchild, Neve, Manley...etc, etc..have become the buzz words to use for those who spend $1000 or less on their hobby. But even if it's just a virtual replication, that's good enough. Always wanted to own an 1176 or a Ca2a... but don't want to triple your investment in your "studio" with just one, cantankerous piece of historic, analog gear?? Welp, for $100, you can say you've got the "same" thing... it's just computerized now!!
I remember when people bragged about having ProTools, when it was ProTool's light version, which wouldn't even transfer to the big boy version.
Mic shockmounts were the rage in earlier years of home recording, when your humble setup could look like something Frank Sinatra sang into...or only those artist, where recording budgets didn't matter.
So... some furturistic version of a piece of hardware?? Only those that look past what I said above... which excludes probably more people than we realize.
Now I think the VC-64 was kinda cool. It didn't really copy anything in appearance. It was kinda like an old Chevy.
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bapu
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look
2015/01/23 23:23:14
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And let's not forget customers. They will respond positively to a GUI in their way. And I'm pretty sure it's not the Sonitus look that will wow them.
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mixmkr
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look
2015/01/23 23:52:52
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bapu
And let's not forget customers. They will respond positively to a GUI in their way. And I'm pretty sure it's not the Sonitus look that will wow them.
Agreed. I'm not so sure these forums really represent an accurate representation of the type of users, that record with this stuff. I think there are many more customers that aspire to having a piece of the "expensive stuff" and appearance is everything. You have to admit, the nice studios also have that "wow" appeal ...and if you've got a Lexicon 224 on your computer monitor... it IS the current version, btw. Any rate...if I wanted an 1176 emulation, it kind of makes sense to have the same kind of controls and looks, as it's easier to identify with. With something like the Quad Curve EQ... it doesn't really matter as much. Infact it's more of a learning experience, with the different types of EQ styles you can select and actually see what the differences supposedly are.
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microapp
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look
2015/01/24 00:16:22
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Bapu, Your point about how it sounds is of course valid. Everyone has their own sense of visual aesthetics and the vintage look is in many ways a fad. In a few years ultra modern may replace it or steam-punk or whatever. I am simply saying the tech exists to give us a choice. Win 8 is considered a failure because of what, the Metro interface and no start menu? I have used Win 8 for a couple of years now and I never saw the Metro screen unless I rebooted. with 8.1 not even with a reboot. If you saw one of my win 8 PCs, you would say ,'Ah win 7', because there are choices in configuring how it looks. I make mine look like win 7. Others may like the tiles, charms,etc. I made XP look like win2000. In this case , people were unwilling to take a few minutes to learn how to make it look like they wanted. In the case of plugs, we don't even have that choice (with a few exceptions). My brain works in an analytical way. If I adjust a control on a plug, I am hearing what this is doing to the sound but also thinking 'what is this doing inside'. My wife may be more concerned whether the panel colors matched. Does anyone know what ratio all-in gives on an 1176? I think you would have to measure it. I want it to be obvious. And if I know the ratio I can relate that to what it does to the sound which is very useful compared to turning all the knobs and pressing all the switches in all possible combinations until it sounds right. I am simply saying to plug makers, give us a choice. It's not like they have to fabricate a new case with different hardware inside. Compared to the effort involved in creating the plug-in algo, a skin is nothing. If marketing got on board with this, rather than user selectable skins, they would probably sell two completely different plugs. Same algo, vintage skin on one, techno skin on the other. Double your product line. But then don't get me started on marketing.
post edited by microapp - 2015/01/24 00:24:36
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microapp
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look
2015/01/24 00:36:13
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SteveStrummerUK
John T
While I'm on the subject, and relevant to citizens of this parish, here is, with honestly no desire to offend, my number one least favourite UI design of all time:
The VC-64 was technically and sonically superb. But that UI slows me down so much I hardly ever used it. It successfully looks like a generic piece of ace high-end vintage gear. And renders itself near-unusable in the attempt.
OMG, that meter... and the knob placement ! Modeled after a prop in the Outer Limits. This thing would definitely have to have a 'make my mix not suck' setting for me to use it. But people are quite fond of it I know.
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look
2015/01/24 01:17:23
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Sliders are easier to read than knobs. 'Tis why I have requested a slider option for the PAN knob on channels. As with the image above, it is just plain stupid to have to use my magnifying vision to discern the little bit of white on a knob to know what it is doing. At least it should have a giant white gash for quick reference. Such knobs on hardware are great for fingers. And the real 3d look of real hardware makes it easy to see. But the wasted time created the illusion of 3d on a screen results in cloudy shading and decreased visibility.
post edited by YouDontHasToCallMeJohnson - 2015/01/24 01:31:07
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Kev999
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look
2015/01/24 02:53:27
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Karyn
As far as any plugin is concerned all the controls could just be a table of data like a spread sheet.
Humans, on the other hand, respond best to visual stimuli. It's easier to decide quickly if something is big or small by seeing an object that represents the size, rather than an arbitrary number.
So on a sliding scale between raw data -> virtual hardware controls, the closer you move towards the virtual controls the easier it is for humans to use. The may be a point where any extra realism adds nothing to the ease of use, like chips on the bakerlite knobs. But in general, added realism aids comprehension through familiarity.
It would be interesting if all plugins came with 2 GUIs and a button to switch back and forth from one to the other. One GUI would be big and stylish while the other one small and plain, with a simple array of sliders and buttons. Would most people eventually gravitate towards sticking with the simple one after they become familiar with the controls? I don't know.
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YolandaSupercute
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look
2015/01/24 03:01:33
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Kev999
It would be interesting if all plugins came with 2 GUIs and a button to switch back and forth from one to the other. One GUI would be big and stylish while the other one small and plain, with a simple array of sliders and buttons. Would most people eventually gravitate towards sticking with the simple one after they become familiar with the controls? I don't know.
Either way, we're still basing sound on (irrelevant but useful-ish) visuals...
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look
2015/01/24 03:09:20
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If you're doing an LA2A emulation, it makes little sense to me to do it with a Melda style look. If you're designing a plug from the ground up though, say an EQ, I prefer it to use all advantages of a modern interface, like FabFilter Pro Q2.
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stevec
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look
2015/01/24 10:49:02
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Personally, I like the vintage look of many current plugins. I think they're slick. That said, I don't necessarily like using the controls on all current vintage looking plugins. Overall and on average I think I agree with John T - CW's own PX and VX64 are a decent balance between the two extremes.
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