Helpful ReplyEnough with the Vintage Plugin Look

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microapp
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2015/01/23 10:46:21 (permalink)

Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look

Could we please stop designing plugs that look like leftovers from a 1950's Ham radio shack.
I like some of the Nomad plugs but the front panels are terrible.
One reason I like the Sonitus plugs is that they typically have a modern look with linear controls and bar-graph meters.
I love the graph on the Sonitus compressor.
Just because your Fairchild plug has chipped Bakelite knobs does not mean your mix is going to sound like Abbey Road.
Why not have huge knobs for faders in console view like the old EMI consoles if they are so cool.
At least add selectable skins and let the user decide , it is not that difficult.

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#1
Karyn
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look 2015/01/23 10:49:52 (permalink)
microapp
Just because your Fairchild plug has chipped Bakelite knobs does not mean your mix is going to sound like Abbey Road.
Why not have huge knobs for faders in console view like the old EMI consoles if they are so cool.

That's a great idea!  Can you add it as a feature request?  

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#2
joel77
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look 2015/01/23 10:57:49 (permalink)
I don't know, .... I kinda like the vintage look. 
 
To each, his own I guess.

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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look 2015/01/23 10:58:04 (permalink)
it's all about familiarity
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look 2015/01/23 11:00:22 (permalink)
I'm mostly with the OP. I love FabFilter stuff for that reason. However, if a compressor (for example) emulates a specific hardware item, it makes very little sense to have it look like something else entirely.
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pwalpwal
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look 2015/01/23 11:05:12 (permalink)
yeah i'm also with the op, being a geek, was just explaining why they do it...
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look 2015/01/23 11:10:58 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Beachboy 2015/01/23 18:55:59
Karyn
microapp
Just because your Fairchild plug has chipped Bakelite knobs does not mean your mix is going to sound like Abbey Road.
Why not have huge knobs for faders in console view like the old EMI consoles if they are so cool.

That's a great idea!  Can you add it as a feature request?  


While your at it could you ask if the next Sonar upgrade will be delivered with a (real Reel) Tape recorder with 2 32 track tape reels and a cutter for editing the tape before mastering.
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microapp
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look 2015/01/23 11:17:29 (permalink)
I kinda like to know what the plug is actually doing.
I don't like the magic knob concept where the min setting is 'sucks more' and the max setting is 'sucks less' and you have no clue what is actually doing.
IMHO, theoretically any plug could emulate any other plug by changing a few parameters in the basic code.
There are software libraries which have standard filter code for creating plugs. Emulating specific hardware exactly gets a little more complicated but it is still just code.
The boutique plug market is just that .... market-ing.
It is reminiscent of the guitar pedal market.
joel77
I don't know, .... I kinda like the vintage look. 
To each, his own I guess.

Joel, You should be able to choose the vintage skin.
I should be able to choose the techno geek skin.
Problem solved.
There is a gazillion skins for WMP mostly user created.
Why not sell a plugin skin for $4.95? Or better yet since you can easily pay $1K for a few plugs, throw in a few skins FOR FREE.
uh-oh I said the F-word.
 
post edited by microapp - 2015/01/23 11:27:02

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Karyn
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look 2015/01/23 11:22:56 (permalink)
As far as any plugin is concerned all the controls could just be a table of data like a spread sheet.
Humans, on the other hand, respond best to visual stimuli.  It's easier to decide quickly if something is big or small by seeing an object that represents the size, rather than an arbitrary number.
 
So on a sliding scale between raw data -> virtual hardware controls,  the closer you move towards the virtual controls the easier it is for humans to use.  The may be a point where any extra realism adds nothing to the ease of use,  like chips on the bakerlite knobs.  But in general, added realism aids comprehension through familiarity.

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tlw
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look 2015/01/23 11:23:36 (permalink)
I find a "hardware-like" interface many plugins is often easier to read at a glance and better laid out than many with a more so-called "modern" gui. You could design e.g. an amplifier plugin with just numerical entry boxes for gain, bass/mid/treble, reverb and volume but a "traditional" interface works much better. For me anyway.

It's true that there are some awful looking and confusing fake hardware plugin guis around and I agree that some of the Nomad plugs could look better but that's more of a colour/contrast/layout issue than a fault in the basic concept.

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microapp
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look 2015/01/23 11:42:25 (permalink)
Karyn
Humans, on the other hand, respond best to visual stimuli.  It's easier to decide quickly if something is big or small by seeing an object that represents the size, rather than an arbitrary number.

Karyn,
Exactly, which is easier, to compare 10 bar-graph meters or 10 linear pots or the rotational position of 10 knobs?
A graph showing real-time data along with the slope and knee in the Sonitus compressor makes it very easy to set up initially. Your ear takes it from there.
I am certainly not talking about entering numbers. I am talking about applying current graphics display technology to make it easier to comprehend what the 'device' is doing. When the original hardware devices were created they had knobs, switches and VU meters to choose from. WHy use a 4Mhz quad core to emulate this ?  We have infinite possibilities.
 

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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look 2015/01/23 11:43:45 (permalink)
Personally I hate the move to cartoon GUIs...I think it's an age thing ;) I'm used to real equipment and plugin interfaces that try to emulate the real thing just make more sense to me.
 
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look 2015/01/23 11:49:34 (permalink)
Cookie Jarvis
Personally I hate the move to cartoon GUIs...I think it's an age thing ;) I'm used to real equipment and plugin interfaces that try to emulate the real thing just make more sense to me.
 
Bill




I agree....but....they could leave out all the scratches and dents and make us feel as though we've just found a brand new vintage piece of equipment stored in a closet somewhere still in the box.... .   JK

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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look 2015/01/23 11:53:03 (permalink)
If the original was nice looking an the layout intuitive, then I like the variety. I've been checking out the FabFilter Twin, and it functionality suits it's look, and I like how it looks, but it's a modern synth. The retro stuff I like the look of, but enough of the scratches, chips and weathering. If they are going to make it look second hand, change me second hand prices

 
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microapp
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look 2015/01/23 11:55:24 (permalink)
Karyn, That is the marketing part I guess.
I still say skins is the answer and to each his own. We have the technological capability to do that now and the only problem is convincing manf's to give us a choice.
Of course some things are difficult to do with knobs and VU's.
Take the Pro-channel EQ fly-out. It is the kind of thing I am advocating.

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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look 2015/01/23 11:55:55 (permalink)
They would sell less, 'cause I'm a sucker for those vintage skins!!! :)
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microapp
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look 2015/01/23 11:58:54 (permalink)
No they would sell more because you would use the vintage skin and I would use the techno skin.
It is no skin(!) off their back to provide both since it is not a physical thing. It is only code.

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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look 2015/01/23 14:47:22 (permalink)
cowboydan
While your at it could you ask if the next Sonar upgrade will be delivered with a (real Reel) Tape recorder with 2 32 track tape reels and a cutter for editing the tape before mastering.



No, but it would be reely cool if the plugin reels actually turned while in use...
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look 2015/01/23 14:48:39 (permalink)
microapp
No they would sell more because you would use the vintage skin and I would use the techno skin.
It is no skin(!) off their back to provide both since it is not a physical thing. It is only code.




It's not only code but painted graphics someone has to create first.
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look 2015/01/23 15:02:03 (permalink)
soens

No, but it would be reely cool if the plugin reels actually turned while in use...

Kramer Master Tape does that! Of course, who knows how big o chunk of my CPU it eats up.
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look 2015/01/23 15:10:01 (permalink)
microapp
No they would sell more because you would use the vintage skin and I would use the techno skin.
It is no skin(!) off their back to provide both since it is not a physical thing. It is only code.


Not sure having Cakewalk messing around skinning 3rd party plug-ins is a good use of time/money. I can think of a few things which may be more useful.
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look 2015/01/23 15:15:15 (permalink)
microapp
One reason I like the Sonitus plugs is that they typically have a modern look with linear controls and bar-graph meters.
I love the graph on the Sonitus compressor.

Dude, anything Sonitus looks like Windows 98. That's hardly modern at all but I tend to gravitate towards things like the QuadCurve EQ and Waves H-EQ Hybrid Equalizer
http://www.waves.com/plugins/h-eq-hybrid-equalizer
 
I need eye candy and delicious looking buttons.
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look 2015/01/23 17:45:50 (permalink)
 
As long as the plug-in works, I can't really see the problem.
 
Of course, the more intuitive the lay-out the better.
 
But I tend to agree with microapp's OP. Making something look old for the sake of it seems a bit of a waste of someone's time.
 
Having said that, when it comes to the older style, some VST UIs just have to have lots of knobs. I reckon PSP do a great job of making something that looks like it came out of a 1950s school science lab superbly functional:
 

 
And when functionality above form is necessary, this Waves Tru-Verb UI has got all you need:
 


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stickman393
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look 2015/01/23 17:49:18 (permalink)
I've posted my thoughts on this before:
I hate knobs - A modest proposal about virtual hardware UIs
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look 2015/01/23 17:59:57 (permalink)
soens
No, but it would be reely cool if the plugin reels actually turned while in use...


As well as the one already mentioned, the reels turn on Wave's plugin as well.

For true realism there should be a requirement to vitrually clean and demagnetise the heads before use and regularly while in use, with a "lazy engineering apprentice" preset which emulates dirty heads and partial demagnetising.

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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look 2015/01/23 18:00:54 (permalink)
Cakewalk Sonar is a together diced pile on purchased 3rd party plugins without any kind of corporate-identity.
 
I would like to see in Sonar some really high quality plugins that gui design fits into the skylight interface. It should look as one system.
 
Please Cakewalk take a look at Cubase , Studio-One or ProTools. They all have their own labeled high quality plugins with all the same look and feel matching the interface of the DAW. This other DAW's do more appear as a complete system, because of their well designed plugin interfaces.
 
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look 2015/01/23 18:15:35 (permalink)
Personally, I don't care what a plugin looks like, as long as it sounds good.



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John T
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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look 2015/01/23 18:17:08 (permalink)
There's a good argument, I think, for retaining the layout of emulated gear. For example, I've long thought that a big part of the "magic" of a Pultec isn't just what's under the hood (though that's of course very important), but the way the Pultec's UI design makes you think, and the EQ moves it steers you towards.
 
However, I think layout is the only significant thing there. If we're having knobs, fine, but for me, I'd be happy if we could lose the weird photo-realism.
 
This is one of my favourite plug in UI designs. All clarity, all function. Nothing there that doesn't need to be there.
 

 
 
 

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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look 2015/01/23 18:21:13 (permalink)
Generally I agree. The mouse does not lend itself to rotating controls. And while I appreciate the LOOK of some of the vintage stuff, it is not ergonomically in line with how we use modern computer controls. 
 
Also agreed, the Sonitus suite got this totally correct. Simple, easy to understand, and simple to operate. 

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Re: Enough with the Vintage Plugin Look 2015/01/23 18:21:47 (permalink)
While I'm on the subject, and relevant to citizens of this parish, here is, with honestly no desire to offend, my number one least favourite UI design of all time:
 

The VC-64 was technically and sonically superb. But that UI slows me down so much I hardly ever used it. It successfully looks like a generic piece of ace high-end vintage gear. And renders itself near-unusable in the attempt.

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#30
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