WhyBe
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Envelope issues in 4.0.3
I just played back a track that I created in 4.0.0 with a bunch of precise envelope edits. In 4.0.3, the envelope nodes seem to not be as precise during playback...meaning they are far behind the beat on playback. I have tried increasing the latency and changing the number of buffers. Did anyone else have this problem?
I don't want to have to go through my whole song and move each node in order to correct this problem.
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dudemanjch
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RE: Envelope issues in 4.0.3
2005/07/31 22:18:52
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this happened before to me when upgrading between cakewalk products; in my case each node was late, but they were consistently late, i.e. each node was 1 beat late. Therefore, I grabbed all the late ones and moved them up 1 beat, and it solved my problem.
That might not be the same as yours, but hope it helps
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Tonmann
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RE: Envelope issues in 4.0.3
2005/07/31 22:18:54
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Yep, I noticed harsh jumps in the envelope processing with 4.0.3, too. Meanwhile I have reverted back to 4.0.2... Sorry, Cakewalk, the new audio-engine is really great, but the rest of this update isn't...  cheers, Chris
post edited by Tonmann - 2005/07/31 22:23:36
...maybe I never realized the joy till the joy was gone...
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WhyBe
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RE: Envelope issues in 4.0.3
2005/07/31 22:36:26
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I second that! I really don't want to move all the nodes to the WRONG spots, just to make it sound RIGHT.
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zendin
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RE: Envelope issues in 4.0.3
2005/08/01 00:22:51
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this is strange, because actually drawing/manipulating envelopes I've found to be much MUCH of an improvement in .3
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saturdaysaint
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RE: Envelope issues in 4.0.3
2005/08/01 00:30:43
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I've noticed that jump envelopes are particularly prone to not work in the update, but if I replace them with linear envelopes, things play back properly.
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Al 
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RE: Envelope issues in 4.0.3
2005/08/01 00:36:01
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this is strange, because actually drawing/manipulating envelopes I've found to be much MUCH of an improvement in .3 Indeed.. same here. For now it seems that the envelope situation got better ( EXCEPT that nasty bug - no vst automation after 7 minutes and 10 seconds...ouch ! ) just from reading the different experiences that users are having (i'm sure you read some 4.03 posts on page 1 of this forum) it looks like the patch to 4.03 is either trying to migrate some older values that make it to work like crap in some cases (again , just for some) .. or what else it could be ? it's not very clear who installed over what.. which users had a totally new (untouched) aud.ini and which not .. who cleaned all cake's registry keys and who just installed over the existing ones.. it is confusing as it is to think about all the different variables that makes one system to work so different from another and now it seems that there is even more confusion than ever. upgrading exe/dll files should be easy - i don't think that the patch has this kind of corruption ..*edit - ooops..actually the patch sometimes doesn't patch the cw13auto.dll as Noel said* but it's not clear where it might mess up and which file or files are getting copied or not over different user's machines. Can't a patch like this have some more checks and couldn't it be more reliable ? or mabe it's all the users fault !  
post edited by Al - 2005/08/01 07:50:16
Much fun with ours to natural resound! <G>
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Guest
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RE: Envelope issues in 4.0.3
2005/08/01 00:40:09
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ORIGINAL: saturdaysaint
I've noticed that jump envelopes are particularly prone to not work in the update, but if I replace them with linear envelopes, things play back properly.
i don't use jump envelopes that much .. but the linear, fast and slow curves seem to work just fine. in fact, some of the projects where the envelopes had been getting ignored when starting playback in the middle of an envelope now appear to be working correctly. I do have a couple of Fx envelopes with jumps .. i'll try them and see how they work.... jeff
post edited by jmarkham - 2005/08/01 00:45:21
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WhyBe
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RE: Envelope issues in 4.0.3
2005/08/01 07:47:10
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ORIGINAL: saturdaysaint
I've noticed that jump envelopes are particularly prone to not work in the update, but if I replace them with linear envelopes, things play back properly.
I use jump envelopes almost exclusively. I'll try making them linear. But still..... they need to fix that. I'm also going to try wiping out my aud.ini to see what happens. I installed from 4.00 through 4.02 then 4.03. It shouldn't make a difference though. For the people that don't experience this problem: are your envelopes very timing intensive? For example, do you use them to modify individual snares or highhats, etc. within a clip? Also, when I export the same file (that plays improperly), the rendered wave plays perfectly.....go figure.
post edited by WhyBe - 2005/08/01 07:54:00
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glazfolk
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RE: Envelope issues in 4.0.3
2005/08/01 08:00:36
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Once again Al's words shed considerable light on the subject, though sadly some of them do go over my head a bit (I'm an old splice 'n ' tape razor blade wielder, not a computer buff - one, for example, who would fell les fear undergoing the experience of having my cavities filled without an anaesthetic than venturing into the terrifying domain of the Windows registry). However, that said ... I must, completely by luck and in no way to my own credit, be doing something right. I've had nothing but good experiences with 4.0.3 (so far) - no transport probs, no envelope dramas, etc. If it helps, I just did the dum obedient thing, simple install, no tweaking or anything like that. I wouldn't know how to clean a registry key (whatever that means) and as for editing AUD.INI ... well, not without an exorcist present. I sure hope you guys get your issues resolved ...
post edited by glazfolk - 2005/08/01 09:57:12
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stratcat33511
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RE: Envelope issues in 4.0.3
2005/08/01 08:51:04
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Yes, me too - sorry
but I have a demo that has crossfades, using envelopes every 30-60 seconds.
the whole demo is about 8 minutes and I haven't experienced this issue.
I'll keep digging and see if I can recreate it.
So far so good here.
I just installed over everything I had already,
re-ran the VST adapter and tested.
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WhyBe
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RE: Envelope issues in 4.0.3
2005/08/01 11:06:08
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If you're doing fades, you're probably not going to hear any problems. For me, it's only when I do quick changes such as lowering the volume of a snare hit then immediately raising it back up to normal. This worked perfectly before 4.0.3. What's weird is that when exporting the song to wav, everything renders perfectly, unlike how it plays. I'm on a dual Xeon machine with HT enabled and latency set pretty high. I've done the upgrade thing as many times as Cakewalk has offered them, never having any problems.
post edited by WhyBe - 2005/08/01 11:11:50
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ohhey
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RE: Envelope issues in 4.0.3
2005/08/01 11:30:13
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Please contact cake about this.. they may not know there is a problem yet.
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saturdaysaint
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RE: Envelope issues in 4.0.3
2005/08/01 12:05:09
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I've contacted support already about the jump envelope issue.
I'm still seeing a few issues with linear envelopes when jumping around in the time line during playback. I have a track where I fade in the Sonitus reverb with a linear envelope and sometimes the reverb just jumps in at the next node, although this might be because it's a Sonitus plugin requiring PDC. This doesn't effect bounced/frozen tracks or if I start playback a few seconds before the envelope.
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Phrauge
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RE: Envelope issues in 4.0.3
2005/08/01 12:11:18
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Not seeing any envelope problem here. I worked on an envelope intensive project this weekend and 4.0.3 worked flawlessly.
Liquid DAW
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WhyBe
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RE: Envelope issues in 4.0.3
2005/08/01 14:15:31
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So maybe we are dealing with an "envelope + plugin" issue?
In my project I have a ton of Waves plugs and Antares. I'm sure some of those are PDC plugs also.
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Phrauge
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RE: Envelope issues in 4.0.3
2005/08/01 14:20:16
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ORIGINAL: WhyBe
So maybe we are dealing with an "envelope + plugin" issue?
In my project I have a ton of Waves plugs and Antares. I'm sure some of those are PDC plugs also.
Could well be. I have none of the Waves or Antares plugs on my DAW.
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saturdaysaint
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RE: Envelope issues in 4.0.3
2005/08/01 14:27:06
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ORIGINAL: WhyBe
So maybe we are dealing with an "envelope + plugin" issue?
Nope - I get the jump envelope problem with volume and panning envelopes.
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WhyBe
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RE: Envelope issues in 4.0.3
2005/08/01 14:31:51
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ORIGINAL: saturdaysaint
ORIGINAL: WhyBe
So maybe we are dealing with an "envelope + plugin" issue?
Nope - I get the jump envelope problem with volume and panning envelopes.
No plugins? Just the envelopes by themselves? What about other tracks? Do they have plugins? How many envelopes are you using on the total song.
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blueelectron9
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RE: Envelope issues in 4.0.3
2005/08/01 15:38:53
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For the people that don't experience this problem: are your envelopes very timing intensive? For example, do you use them to modify individual snares or highhats, etc. within a clip?
Also, when I export the same file (that plays improperly), the rendered wave plays perfectly.....go figure. I've gone down to measure-wide L-R sweeps, but nothing with the resolution that you're talking about (individual highhats, etc.). There's a few pieces I have that I wouldn't mine getting to that level with, but mainly my resolution is measure or multi-measure wide nodes with linear, power, or exponential cures. Best, Scotty
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stephenlnoe
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RE: Envelope issues in 4.0.3
2005/08/01 16:21:26
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Envelope issues here as well that were not present in 4.01 or 4.02. Maybe there are some more files that didn't get updated with the 4.03 as expected by cake that is causing this. I am using plenty of FX on the tracks (reverb, IQ4, modulator, FxEq, FxFlange etc).
We all need more cow bell
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Tonmann
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RE: Envelope issues in 4.0.3
2005/08/01 16:51:21
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If you have problems with envelopes of extrernal effects, maybe this here may be of interest for you, too... cheers, Chris
post edited by Tonmann - 2005/08/01 16:56:16
...maybe I never realized the joy till the joy was gone...
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glazfolk
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RE: Envelope issues in 4.0.3
2005/08/01 18:13:35
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ORIGINAL: WhyBe
In my project I have a ton of Waves plugs and Antares. I'm sure some of those are PDC plugs also.
My money's on Antares, esp Tube and Autotune. Try using the VST versions instead of DX if you have them .... This has been a problem for many since Sonar 3 at least.
post edited by glazfolk - 2005/08/01 18:18:52
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Tripecac
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RE: Envelope issues in 4.0.3
2005/08/06 12:08:25
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I get the jump envelope problem with volume and panning envelopes. Same here. I'm not using any plugins, just MIDI to my Triton. If I have a volume node at 100 and the next at 20 and then playback, in Sonar the volume "slider" changes from 100 to 20, but my Triton stays at 100. It doesn't seem 100% consistent, though. Is this similar to the envelope bug you guys are seeing?
post edited by Tripecac - 2005/08/06 12:13:46
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Keni
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RE: Envelope issues in 4.0.3
2005/08/06 12:31:39
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I hardly ever use jump slopes myself, but in the last week or so I've had occassion to use them a few times....
All my nevelopes including these appear to be working "normally"....?
Maybe it's driver-specific with this problem? I don't know how, but.........
I'll have to look at the numbers to see if they're realistic, but I adjusted the nodes to do what I wanted and it appears to be doing so...
Keni
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WhyBe
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RE: Envelope issues in 4.0.3
2005/08/06 13:20:28
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It may have something to do with the load that is being put on the CPU or audio engine. I have about 24 tracks with envelopes and plugins on just about every one. Changing latency doesn't make any difference. Maybe those who aren't having this issue aren't pushing the audio engine that hard or aren't using "Brand X" plugins. When rendereing/exporting the same project, it comes out perfectly. This is why I think it has something to do with the audio engine modifications. I'm going to try an uninstall of Sonar 4 (I hate going through that uninstall/reinstall crap).
post edited by WhyBe - 2005/08/06 13:26:22
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Tripecac
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RE: Envelope issues in 4.0.3
2005/08/06 14:09:21
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I don't think CPU load is an issue in my case: I'm just doing 16 tracks of MIDI, no audio or plugins.
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Dave Modisette
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RE: Envelope issues in 4.0.3
2005/08/06 14:22:08
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So maybe we are dealing with an "envelope + plugin" issue?
In my project I have a ton of Waves plugs and Antares. I'm sure some of those are PDC plugs also. Just curious. Doesn't Wave and Antares both use Pace protection?
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stratton
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RE: Envelope issues in 4.0.3
2005/08/08 12:24:43
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ORIGINAL: saturdaysaint
ORIGINAL: WhyBe
So maybe we are dealing with an "envelope + plugin" issue?
Nope - I get the jump envelope problem with volume and panning envelopes.
It's the opposite for me. Panning and volume envelopes work fine here. I just did a quick experiment: 4.03, one track of stereo drum loop, Sonitus track EQ and VST UAD-1 Pultec Pro. Sonitus responded to enable/disable envelopes, linear or jump. Pultec Pro responded only to linear envelopes. I noticed jump envelopes on UAD-1 effects not working on two other projects. At least there is a workaround. Ken
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Tripecac
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RE: Envelope issues in 4.0.3
2005/08/12 15:02:46
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What are you guys using for MIDI buffer size?
Cakewalk tech support recommended that we try changing the MIDI buffer to 1000 or 100.
Does that fix the problem? (I've since reverted to 4.0.2 so can't test)
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