carlosagm79
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Essential pluigins not included with Sonar
Although Sonar package includes new plugins covering different functions,still missing some basic and important ones, like noise reduction,clipping fixer and click/pop restauration, this is essential in most studios, when editing problems,recording artifacts or higly distorted guitar introduces those common problems, its weird that Sonar does have a suite for that. I use Waves and Sony plugins for that issues.
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twoifbysea
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Re:Essential pluigins not included with Sonar
2011/07/18 22:01:57
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I currently have 3 DAWs. None of them have those plugs. Nor have I ever needed any of them. *shrugs*.
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konradh
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Re:Essential pluigins not included with Sonar
2011/07/18 22:02:23
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Agree--but just curious: what type of noise would you most often be eliminating? Would this be more of a filtering problem or a gating issue? My #1 offender is buzzy single coil pick-ups players bring in. Thanks.
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windsurfer25x
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Re:Essential pluigins not included with Sonar
2011/07/18 22:09:27
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I wouldn't want them to include something like that, because it wouldn't be as good as what I already have... iZotope's RX 2 Advanced
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intuneaudio
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Re:Essential pluigins not included with Sonar
2011/07/18 22:10:27
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Except for the rarest of circumstances I've never needed any of those style of plugins. So not really essential for me.
It might be a good idea to look at where those noises are coming from. The plugin might treat the symptom but it's not fixing the problem.
The majority of those plugins are just fancy preset EQ's or multiband compressors. By using them you may filter out some of those noises but you are losing quality in your signal and altering the sound (not in a good way).
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carlosagm79
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Re:Essential pluigins not included with Sonar
2011/07/18 22:42:32
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I do lots of splits, also apply chains of dynamics processing destructively to some clips(like vocals), if I made a mistake,or a small portion of a recording its clipped, I save time and eliminate the click/clip whatever instead a re-recording.
Heavy metal guitar have a inherent hum, sometimes just fading or gating the quietest passages its ok, sometime I do noise reduction.
Sonar VVocal sometimes after applied in a small clip it creates a molest click(a Bug, I don't know)
A good take from a bass player, for example, can be lost for very small clicks and rumble due to its jack plug or any other line issue.
Somebody says he have 3 DAW, never use Waves, Sony, Izotope, Soundsoap restoration tool??
The most common use, to restore old vinyl/ tape recordings!
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twoifbysea
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Re:Essential pluigins not included with Sonar
2011/07/19 02:31:35
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'"Somebody says he have 3 DAW, never use Waves, Sony, Izotope, Soundsoap restoration tool?? The most common use, to restore old vinyl/ tape recordings!" That's correct, I do not. I record music. I don't do restorations. It sounds like maybe you already have the tools you need and don't need them bundled with Sonar then? But as you can see by the horrible job I've done of trying to format this reply as a quote that I could use a good forum quoting tool.
post edited by twoifbysea - 2011/07/19 02:35:44
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John T
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Re:Essential pluigins not included with Sonar
2011/07/19 06:52:35
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There's the seeds of a more general point in this, I think.
Putting aside the fixing of bugs and the improving of UI, there aren't actually many places for DAWs left to go, in terms of capability. I'd say this has been the case for maybe three or four years now.
What we're into now is a pretty mature phase, where there are only a few worthwhile vectors left to explore.
One's workflow / UI / methodology stuff. There's still plenty of room to innovate in terms of how you actually work with these tools.
Another is refinement. Thinking specifically about Sonar, we all know that scoring could be better, video could be better, the Matrix could be better. Stuff like that.
Which leaves the last area, which is, to my mind, comprehensiveness. All the major DAWs have been exploring this a bit, with more and more bundled plug ins, and integrated channel strips and what have you. Being able to say you've got everything you're going to need in one box is a powerful sales point.
I think integrated noise reduction tools are a totally coherent potential addition to a DAW. The point's been made that such tools would be unlikely to be the equal of the very best, such as Izotope RX, but I think that's somewhat beside the point. I think there will always be a market for extremely high end task-specific tools of that nature. Just as bundled EQs haven't killed the market for VST EQs.
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:Essential pluigins not included with Sonar
2011/07/19 08:56:49
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I think integrated noise reduction tools are a totally coherent potential addition to a DAW. The point's been made that such tools would be unlikely to be the equal of the very best, such as Izotope RX, but I think that's somewhat beside the point. I think there will always be a market for extremely high end task-specific tools of that nature. Just as bundled EQs haven't killed the market for VST EQs. Sonar already includes most of the essential tools for mixing. As mentioned, there are 3rd party plugins that are better for specific tasks. Noise-reduction is pretty niche'. Personally, I don't think I'd want mediocre noise reduction. If you need NR on a regular basis, it's easy to justify RX or the Waves plugins. Speaking of NR, it's best to kill noise at the source. That means having guitar players shield those single-coil pickups/etc.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Essential pluigins not included with Sonar
2011/07/19 09:00:19
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Some of the very best noise reduction tools are available in Cool Edit Pro... it's a fifteen year old program. I like using the Cool Edit tools in Adobe Audition... but the CEDAR box we use is even better at taking care of the job. Without the CEDAR I'd prefer to do noise reduction in a wave editor and to do it destructively... so I use Adobe Audition often. It seems like it would be kludgy to do state of the art noise reduction in SONAR... sort of like using Melodyne. best regards, mike
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John T
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Re:Essential pluigins not included with Sonar
2011/07/19 10:20:02
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Jim Roseberry
I think integrated noise reduction tools are a totally coherent potential addition to a DAW. The point's been made that such tools would be unlikely to be the equal of the very best, such as Izotope RX, but I think that's somewhat beside the point. I think there will always be a market for extremely high end task-specific tools of that nature. Just as bundled EQs haven't killed the market for VST EQs.
Sonar already includes most of the essential tools for mixing.
As mentioned, there are 3rd party plugins that are better for specific tasks.
Noise-reduction is pretty niche'. Personally, I don't think I'd want mediocre noise reduction.
If you need NR on a regular basis, it's easy to justify RX or the Waves plugins.
Speaking of NR, it's best to kill noise at the source.
That means having guitar players shield those single-coil pickups/etc.
I wouldn't personally have any use for it myself, either. Just speculating that it's probably the kind of thing that's going to start working its way into the packages. I think DAW makers have a bit of a problem in that they are running out of areas to strongly differentiate from one another in. So "who's got the most stuff in the box" has become a not insignificant competing factor.
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BEATZM1D10T
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Re:Essential pluigins not included with Sonar
2011/07/19 10:36:38
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Edit: Damn forum software, it's not taking any of my paragraph breaks. *scratches head* sorry for this mess. carlosagm79, "I do lots of splits," Make sure you are splitting at the zero crossing. "also apply chains of dynamics processing destructively to some clips(like vocals), if I made a mistake,or a small portion of a recording its clipped, I save time and eliminate the click/clip whatever instead a re-recording." Make a copy of the original track to destructively edit. You can always copy back in a clean part without an issue. The better approach is to probably edit non-destructively. "Heavy metal guitar have a inherent hum, sometimes just fading or gating the quietest passages its ok, sometime I do noise reduction." This really needs to be tackled at the source. Does the live room have clean power? Are the guitarists using quality cables and shielded guitars? If they have active electronics have they changed the battery? Are they using quality amps? I have some pretty monster gain amps that have less hum than a lot of old tweed Fender's that I've heard. "Sonar VVocal sometimes after applied in a small clip it creates a molest click(a Bug, I don't know)" You need to apply it to a dry vocal. Try turning the Forment control down too. "A good take from a bass player, for example, can be lost for very small clicks and rumble due to its jack plug or any other line issue." Line issues need to be resolved before ever recording. Give the bassist a working bass if you must. I've got 3 and access to many more for just this reason. "Somebody says he have 3 DAW, never use Waves, Sony, Izotope, Soundsoap restoration tool?? The most common use, to restore old vinyl/ tape recordings!" I don't do restorations, but I use SONAR, ProTools, and Logic. I've never needed to use anything more than a Gate or EQ for noise control.
post edited by BEATZM1D10T - 2011/07/19 10:40:57
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THambrecht
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Re:Essential pluigins not included with Sonar
2011/07/19 10:49:46
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We transfer tape and vinyl records with sonar x1. I think Sonar X1 is a great audio-editor. Plugins for de-noisung (ZNoise) and declicking (Algorithmix), declipping ... are more expensive than 10 x Sonar X1. For 99,8 % of the user there is no need for this expensive restauration-tools. (Algorithmix Renovator is 3.000$).
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TimV
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Re:Essential pluigins not included with Sonar
2011/07/19 12:15:54
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My computer is 64 bit, but I always record in Sonar 32 bit so that Sony Noise Reduction 2.0 will be available if I want it. There are times when it's hard to avoid getting some sound from the computer or air conditioning, especially if I'm recording a quiet instrument. Sometimes, applying noise reduction doesn't help much or affects the sound of the instrument, but there are other times when it really cleans up the track and makes the mix clearer.
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:Essential pluigins not included with Sonar
2011/07/19 14:54:26
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I think DAW makers have a bit of a problem in that they are running out of areas to strongly differentiate from one another in. So "who's got the most stuff in the box" has become a not insignificant competing factor. Agreed... That and useability are going to be key factors.
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bitflipper
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Re:Essential pluigins not included with Sonar
2011/07/19 17:56:09
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A case can be made that remedial editing is outside the scope of a general-purpose DAW, and that those functions are best left to specialized software. DAWs are geared toward real-time processing, while editors are more about offline processing. Things like noise and click removal are best done offline.
However, there is certainly room left for innovation in SONAR in areas such as data analysis. There is, for example, no mechanism in SONAR for determining the average RMS value for an arbitrary section of audio. There is also no dynamic range meter, no phase correlation meter. These are basic tools that do fall within the domain of general-purpose DAWs.
Most other types of plugins fall into the "maybe you need it but I don't" category. Some are getting excited about the new Z3ta version this month; others could not care less. When 8.5 came with a bitcrusher, some said yay, it's about time! Others wondered what the heck they'd ever use that for.
Which leaves the much smaller class of plugins that are exceptions to the "most people don't care" rule. One glaring deficiency that comes to mind is lack of a mastering limiter, an inexplicable oversight. Beyond that, I really can't think of anything else that isn't covered by the bundled effects.
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SvenArne
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Re:Essential pluigins not included with Sonar
2011/07/19 18:24:09
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bitflipper
One glaring deficiency that comes to mind is lack of a mastering limiter, an inexplicable oversight.
+1 Boost11 is a toy that came from SONAR Home Studio after some people got upset that HS users got a "mastering limiter", while Producer Edition users got none. It's really about time we got something that's more in line with the quality of the rest of the bundled plugs. I for one would like to have a rudimentary de-noise-click-pop plug bundled with SONAR. Not for starting a serious audio restoration enterprise, but every once in a while I get multitrack projects sent to me where one or more tracks could have benefited from noise reduction. Sven
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thomasabarnes
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Re:Essential pluigins not included with Sonar
2011/07/19 20:22:01
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I'd like decent noise reduction, de-pop, and a de-esser effects included with SONAR. I think these are essential plug ins to have for getting good vocal tracks. :)
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pianodano
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Re:Essential pluigins not included with Sonar
2011/07/19 21:26:12
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Please please please, no more plugins in Sonar. Most of us already have UAD plugs and or Waves. Those that don't need to getem. Btw, a good investment for a studio is a 1st class preamp and a few really good microphones. 8-10k bucks ought to do it. If the singer can't sing without breath blasts, phonic pops or essess thru a high end sinal path, in reality, he or she probably ain't ready to record anyhow!
The Sonitus gate itself is just fine for single coil hum and other noises that need some control. And there is nothing wrong with splitting clips to get rid of noise. A 3 min song takes about 5 minutes, max.
If I want to restore vinyl, I'll do it outside of Sonar. If I have a tape so crappy that the fidelity is lost, I'll send it to someone that specializes in restoration service, if the tape is worth restoring.
YMMV.
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sykodelic
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Re:Essential pluigins not included with Sonar
2011/07/19 22:17:36
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Most of us already have UAD plugs and or Waves.
nope sure don't and have no desire to get them......tons of others but none on that list. don't need plugs that force me to use Ilok or additional hardware.
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thomasabarnes
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Re:Essential pluigins not included with Sonar
2011/07/19 23:46:31
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Please please please, no more plugins in Sonar.
I've seen this said and even said it before myself. But I guess I didn't give it much thought before I expressed. OK I'll go for that. It's better to have SONAR as stable and bug free as it can be. However, I would be for Cakewalk selling such plug ins as a de-esser, de-pop, and a dedicated noise reduction as a separate bundle of decently efficient plug ins at the Cakewalk store. As for the Waves stuff, I have two issues with Waves stuff, ilok (yuk) and too expensive!
post edited by thomasabarnes - 2011/07/19 23:47:56
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konradh
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Re:Essential pluigins not included with Sonar
2011/07/20 10:40:25
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pianodano, You make good points, but I have to disagree about the singer comment because many of us have earned our keep cutting demos for amateur singers, or for professional songwriters who can't sing. De-essers etc make it much faster to get a usable take.
If you only work with pros, this is not an issue.
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windsurfer25x
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Re:Essential pluigins not included with Sonar
2011/07/20 10:46:54
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I guess the point is a lot of us wouldn't want Sonar to waste resources and development time on something like that when a number of us already have a good tool for that. And when there are much more important things that need attention
If Cakewalk HAS to include something like that, I hope they just license a tool from iZotope or something but personally I'd rather them not
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BEATZM1D10T
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Re:Essential pluigins not included with Sonar
2011/07/20 11:05:14
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Am I missing something? There are de-essers on the Vocal Strip(VX-64) and Vintage Channel(VC-64) already. Plus you can always add 2 SONITUS:FX EQ's and "roll your own" de-esser. I don't know why the Cakebakers would need to add another.
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:Essential pluigins not included with Sonar
2011/07/20 13:36:44
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I don't know why the Cakebakers would need to add another The least destructive method of "de-essing" is to process each offending "ssss" (or sibilant) independent of the rest of the track. You can do this by splitting each offending sibilant into a separate clip. Then, use Sonar's per-clip processing to apply a de-ess plugin, multi-band compressor, EQ, etc... to tame the sibilance. If you run a de-essing plugin across the entire track, you can loose a lot of the vocal exicitement/i ntelligibility. You can also duck the volume of the sibilant by using a Volume envelope.
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BEATZM1D10T
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Re:Essential pluigins not included with Sonar
2011/07/20 13:50:23
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Hey Jim. Yeah, I try to use the volume method for the most part and, when I do use plugs I definitely split the clips up. I'll usually do it all when I'm in the process of pitch correcting. I just don't see why we'd need another de-esser when we would probably all like to see a better limiter. But...I think the least destructive is just making the singer do it right in the first place ;)
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John T
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Re:Essential pluigins not included with Sonar
2011/07/20 13:52:57
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"Right" is a tricky concept here, I think. You do get people who are in all other regards great singers, but have a lot of sibilance going on. Even more common in voice actors.
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:Essential pluigins not included with Sonar
2011/07/20 14:17:38
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But...I think the least destructive is just making the singer do it right in the first place ;) You're right about that...  Mic choice can also affect sibilance
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SvenArne
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Re:Essential pluigins not included with Sonar
2011/07/20 16:22:35
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De-essing? We have that, I thought we were talking about noise reduction (see the OP)?
Sven
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bitflipper
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Re:Essential pluigins not included with Sonar
2011/07/20 16:31:27
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Most of us already have UAD plugs and or Waves. Speak for yourself, Danny.  Most of us don't have UAD or Waves, trust me. The point, however, is taken: the choice of plugins is often based on personal preference. I don't use the Sonitus EQ because I have other equalizers I like better. However, before I found them I did use the Sonitus EQ for everything and would have felt shortchanged had nothing like that been bundled with the DAW. In order to be competitive, all DAW vendors must bundle the essential effects. It comes down to what's considered "essential", and that will vary from user to user. And it isn't always about personal preference. Most hobbyists can't justify spending a lot of money, and bundled effects are a good value for those folks. If you were in Cakewalk Marketing, would you write off that (huge) market segment?
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