Events List Does Not Display Notes Off

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solotibia
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2009/08/15 22:35:41 (permalink)

Events List Does Not Display Notes Off

I have a few days remaining of my trial Sonar and it doesn't look too good.

I need Sonar to record two to three ports of information and to keep each port's datastream discrete from each other. This has not worked as I find that ch2 note off information (ie velocity zero) finds its way from port 2 to port 1. Now that wouldn't be so bad, but Sonar does not report the note off information in either port! So, I am unable to edit note off information in either port. Why?

The note on (ie velocity 127) information is not being written from port 2 to port 1.

Ian
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    daveny5
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    Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/15 23:06:59 (permalink)
    I believe its because few instruments send note offs. Most instruments send a note on with a duration. At the end of the duration, the note stops. There's no need for a note off.

    Dave
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    solotibia
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    Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/16 00:00:18 (permalink)
    That makes sense, however, in my situation I need to be able edit the note offs as they turn on and off stops on a virtual pipe organ. And, with the 'bleeding' of ch2 note offs from Port 1 (keyboards) to Port 2 (stops and expression) I need to find these recalcitrant children and eliminate them.

    Ian
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    solotibia
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    Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/16 00:01:30 (permalink)
    Sorry that should be bleeding from Port 2 (keyboards) to Port 1 (Stops and Expression)
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    solotibia
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    Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/16 00:45:21 (permalink)
    Further information: When using a midi monitor utility, the velocity zero midi note off events can be clearly observed. So, Sonar does record these events, it just doesn't display them in the events list. Well, not so far as I have been able to make happen.

    Ian
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    brundlefly
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    Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/16 00:51:25 (permalink)

    I believe its because few instruments send note offs. Most instruments send a note on with a duration. At the end of the duration, the note stops. There's no need for a note off.


    Say what? Sorry, Dave, I know you have a ton of MIDI experience, but this makes no sense at all. The controller doesn't know how long the note is until you lift the key, so there's no way it could send a "duration" with the note-on. Besides, duration doesn't even exist in the MIDI spec, it's just a concept used by sequencers, and derived from the time between the Note On and the Note Off. I believe some sequencers store Note Ons and Note Offs, and some convert the time between them to a duration, but the durations has to be converted back to a separate Note Off to be sent as a MIDI message. I seem to remember reading that SONAR is among the latter, but I'd have to check.

    And to the OP. I'm sorry to say you're not making sense to me either. The port info is part of the MIDI message. There's no way for it to "bleed" to another port, unless you've got some sort of really flaky hardware driver that's mis-writing messages. I don't believe there's any way this could be SONAR's doing in any case. I've been doing this for over twenty years, and I've never heard of MIDI "bleed" between ports. Are you using MIDIOX to see this or...? And if you do see it in the monitor, on what basis are you concluding that it's a SONAR issue, and not your MIDI interface? What is your MIDI interface by the way?

    Edited for clarity and typos.

    Is this April fools day or something. You guys are in cahoots to stir up some action on the forum, right?

    Sorry, not trying to be argumentative with either of you, but this is just weird. 



    post edited by brundlefly - 2009/08/16 00:55:48

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    solotibia
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    Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/16 05:05:35 (permalink)
    When playing thru Sonar, there is no issue. The problem occurs only on Sonar replay on the identical MIDI chain.

    Sonar does sends a note off message, one question I have is why aren't any of these events listed in the events list?

    I agree that the 'bleeding' analogy makes no sense. However, that is the best word that I can come up with to describe what occurs during replay. Once again, it only occurs in replay, not when playing the instrument live.

    Ian
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    bvideo
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    Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/16 12:29:35 (permalink)
    solotibia


    When playing thru Sonar, there is no issue. The problem occurs only on Sonar replay on the identical MIDI chain.

    Sonar does sends a note off message, one question I have is why aren't any of these events listed in the events list?

    I agree that the 'bleeding' analogy makes no sense. However, that is the best word that I can come up with to describe what occurs during replay. Once again, it only occurs in replay, not when playing the instrument live.

    Ian

    As to your first question, Sonar converts incoming matching note-on -- note-off sequences into a Note+duration. That is what is displayed in the event list (and it is certainly easier to view and edit that way, too). On playback, note off is sent for each note when the duration expires. Instead of editing note-off events, you would edit duration. That makes sense, since the only logical thing you would want to edit about a note-off event would be its timing (note-off velocity is apparently not implemented).

    For the second question, Sonar keeps the original incoming MIDI channel in the recording, so in fact a single track could have a recording of multiple MIDI channels if you were simultaneously recording from multiple sources. But it is configurable for the output to all be sent to a single MIDI channel. In that case, all the MIDI events on the track are sent back to a chosen channel number that is configured as the MIDI output port/channel of the track. There are various possibilities for confusion here. In particular, if two different instruments hit the same note, the shortest duration would prevail if playback is merged to a single channel.

    To be sure of everything, you would need to examine the input setting: port & channel (or none, aka omni) and the output setting: port & channel (or none, aka original input channel). For input, none means omni, meaning record all channels. For output, none means "send to the same channel as recorded", while an explicitly chosen channel number means "send all events to the chosen channel", no matter which channel they were recorded from. For the recordings you have already made, examine the event list to find out if they contain multiple channels.

    For your situation, it seems you would want to set the input port & channel number of each track to the channel number of the instrument you want recorded by that track, so you don't inadvertently record events from another controller that you intend to be recorded at the same time to a different track. If the tracks are then properly recorded to the MIDI channel you want, you can set the output channel to none if your tracks were recorded from different channels or you could set it to the preferred channel number for that track. I'd do the latter, since I might later do editing, copy/pasting, or rerecording from some different controller/channel. Setting the output channel to the intended output device prevents surprises. If you are recording the tracks individually using a single controller on a fixed channel, then definitely set the output channel to the intended output, not none.

    Since I've never had "crosstalk" with proper channel settings and recordings, my guess to find the problem would be to look for having a track with events on multiple channels with the output channel set to something other than "none" or having more than one track with the same original input channel and the output channels both set to "none".

    Bill B

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    brundlefly
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    Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/16 12:54:21 (permalink)

    Once again, it only occurs in replay, not when playing the instrument live.


    When playing live are you using Local Control on a keyboard synth, or are you using Input Echo on the MIDI track to send the incoming MIDI back out to the synth? If the latter (which is usually the preferred configuration), I would expect this misrouting of Note Offs to occur both during live playing, and on playback. Either way, we still wouldn't know whether this is a SONAR problem, or a driver/hardware problem.

    Also, I was wrong about the port assignment being part of the message. Messages will be sent to whatever port is assigned as the output in the MIDI track, as bvideo pointed out. So it would technically be possible for SONAR to screw up and send the Note On to one port and the Note Off to another. I've never seen it happen in all my years, but I only installed S8 last week, and everything I've done has involved on one I/O pair of MIDI ports, so I wouldn't be affected by any new bugs S8 might have in this regard.

    Still wondering what you are using for a MIDI interface(s), and are they USB, Firewire or PCI?. If you have multiple hardware interfaces, they could be having driver conflicts.
    post edited by brundlefly - 2009/08/16 12:57:52

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    solotibia
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    Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/16 19:49:22 (permalink)
    bvideo


    solotibia


    When playing thru Sonar, there is no issue. The problem occurs only on Sonar replay on the identical MIDI chain.

    Sonar does sends a note off message, one question I have is why aren't any of these events listed in the events list?

    I agree that the 'bleeding' analogy makes no sense. However, that is the best word that I can come up with to describe what occurs during replay. Once again, it only occurs in replay, not when playing the instrument live.

    Ian

    As to your first question, Sonar converts incoming matching note-on -- note-off sequences into a Note+duration. That is what is displayed in the event list (and it is certainly easier to view and edit that way, too). On playback, note off is sent for each note when the duration expires. Instead of editing note-off events, you would edit duration. That makes sense, since the only logical thing you would want to edit about a note-off event would be its timing (note-off velocity is apparently not implemented).

    As Port 1 has the organ stop information, I need to be able to edit out the false stop offs that have strayed there from Port 2. However, as you point out, if Sonar only stores note+duration, then even if I could edit out the bad eggs, the duration is not going to change. It is difficult to work out what the duration should have been for these stops, but it can be calculated by the stops used in the rest of that registration most of the time.

    For the second question, Sonar keeps the original incoming MIDI channel in the recording, so in fact a single track could have a recording of multiple MIDI channels if you were simultaneously recording from multiple sources. But it is configurable for the output to all be sent to a single MIDI channel. In that case, all the MIDI events on the track are sent back to a chosen channel number that is configured as the MIDI output port/channel of the track. There are various possibilities for confusion here. In particular, if two different instruments hit the same note, the shortest duration would prevail if playback is merged to a single channel.

    The original incoming and outgoing ports remain identical whether being played live, or in replay.

    To be sure of everything, you would need to examine the input setting: port & channel (or none, aka omni) and the output setting: port & channel (or none, aka original input channel). For input, none means omni, meaning record all channels. For output, none means "send to the same channel as recorded", while an explicitly chosen channel number means "send all events to the chosen channel", no matter which channel they were recorded from. For the recordings you have already made, examine the event list to find out if they contain multiple channels.

    The settings that I had, and continue to have are omni for input on each port, and none for output on each port.

    For your situation, it seems you would want to set the input port & channel number of each track to the channel number of the instrument you want recorded by that track, so you don't inadvertently record events from another controller that you intend to be recorded at the same time to a different track. If the tracks are then properly recorded to the MIDI channel you want, you can set the output channel to none if your tracks were recorded from different channels or you could set it to the preferred channel number for that track. I'd do the latter, since I might later do editing, copy/pasting, or rerecording from some different controller/channel. Setting the output channel to the intended output device prevents surprises. If you are recording the tracks individually using a single controller on a fixed channel, then definitely set the output channel to the intended output, not none.

    On port 1, all 16 channels (organ stops and expression) are recorded and replayed. On port 2, only 5 channels (organ keyboards) are recorded and replayed.

    Since I've never had "crosstalk" with proper channel settings and recordings, my guess to find the problem would be to look for having a track with events on multiple channels with the output channel set to something other than "none" or having more than one track with the same original input channel and the output channels both set to "none".

    The interesting thing is that when using Steinberg Cubase LE in an identical device line up this problem does not occur. So, it seems that the product to purchase may be Cubase 5, and not Sonar? Also, just like my experiences with Tascam/Giga, that company was incompetent when it came to sales and support, whilst the Giga forum (like this forum) was an excellent resource. The Australian distributors (a subset of Roland Australia) have proved to be completely inept. Even when it came to obtaining a registration number for the Sonar 8 trial s/w (in other words before I had given them my money!). So, why persist with Sonar? I prefer the interface.

    Ian





    post edited by solotibia - 2009/08/16 19:56:52
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    solotibia
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    Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/16 19:55:17 (permalink)
    brundlefly



    Once again, it only occurs in replay, not when playing the instrument live.


    When playing live are you using Local Control on a keyboard synth, or are you using Input Echo on the MIDI track to send the incoming MIDI back out to the synth? If the latter (which is usually the preferred configuration), I would expect this misrouting of Note Offs to occur both during live playing, and on playback. Either way, we still wouldn't know whether this is a SONAR problem, or a driver/hardware problem.

    If it was due to these other issues, then I believe that the problem would manifest itself live. I am using Input Echo.

    Also, I was wrong about the port assignment being part of the message. Messages will be sent to whatever port is assigned as the output in the MIDI track, as bvideo pointed out. So it would technically be possible for SONAR to screw up and send the Note On to one port and the Note Off to another. I've never seen it happen in all my years, but I only installed S8 last week, and everything I've done has involved on one I/O pair of MIDI ports, so I wouldn't be affected by any new bugs S8 might have in this regard.

    Still wondering what you are using for a MIDI interface(s), and are they USB, Firewire or PCI?. If you have multiple hardware interfaces, they could be having driver conflicts.

    midiman 4 x 4 USB in and out from the Sonar DAW fed and received by an Edirol UM-880 from the organ



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    solotibia
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    Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/16 20:02:51 (permalink)
    Update:

    Since making the original recordings I have moved those stops which were on the organ from ch2 to be on ch7. As there is no keyboard on ch7 on Port 1, guess what? No bleeding of any info from Port 2 to Port 1! This is a work around as obviously there is a bug in Sonar on replay.

    Thanks for your help.
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    brundlefly
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    Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/16 20:21:37 (permalink)
    Since making the original recordings I have moved those stops which were on the organ from ch2 to be on ch7. As there is no keyboard on ch7 on Port 1, guess what? No bleeding of any info from Port 2 to Port 1!

    Why would channel 2's note offs get redirected to port 1, and not channel 7's? Makes no sense, but I'm glad you found a solution.

    ....obviously there is a bug in Sonar on replay.


    A totally unfounded conclusion IMO that is not backed up by the experience of others, and will not help you find a permanent fix to a problem that is very likely peculiar to your system configuration, but if that's how you want to look at it, fine.




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    ducatibruce2
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    Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/16 20:42:50 (permalink)
    I'd make sure "Always echo selected midi track" is unchecked under Options/Global/general in Sonar (it can cause wierd behaviour whilst trying to be "helpful") and make sure I'm recording each channel to its own midi track.

    Then utilise the track's output parameters in Sonar to select the channel you want each output to.

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    solotibia
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    Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/16 20:58:41 (permalink)
    brundlefly



    Since making the original recordings I have moved those stops which were on the organ from ch2 to be on ch7. As there is no keyboard on ch7 on Port 1, guess what? No bleeding of any info from Port 2 to Port 1!

    Why would channel 2's note offs get redirected to port 1, and not channel 7's? Makes no sense, but I'm glad you found a solution.


    ....obviously there is a bug in Sonar on replay.


    A totally unfounded conclusion IMO that is not backed up by the experience of others, and will not help you find a permanent fix to a problem that is very likely peculiar to your system configuration, but if that's how you want to look at it, fine.
    Hey! You miss the point. I am evaluating the trial s/w with the intention to purchase IF it worked. It doesn't happen with the light version of Cubase. It doesn't occur when playing live, it doesn't happen if the midi notes on in one port are different to the midi notes off in another. There IS a problem.


    post edited by solotibia - 2009/08/16 21:04:26
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    solotibia
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    Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/16 21:03:26 (permalink)
    ducatibruce2


    I'd make sure "Always echo selected midi track" is unchecked under Options/Global/general in Sonar (it can cause wierd behaviour whilst trying to be "helpful") and make sure I'm recording each channel to its own midi track.

    Then utilise the track's output parameters in Sonar to select the channel you want each output to.


    Thank you. When I read through the Sonar help info, and other info out there on the web, this was suggested. However, it didn't fix this particular issue. The decision I have to make is whether to use the workaround so that I can keep the Sonar interface, or whether, other issues might arise that I have yet to trigger. I believe that problem with these virtual organs is that in using midi note on and off for stop switching means that notes are held for a very long time, and that this is an atypical use of midi notes. Who knows? I just need something to work, reliably that I find comfortable to work with. Sonar wins on the latter.

    Ian
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    bitflipper
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    Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/16 21:58:47 (permalink)
    Ian, re-read bvideo's response above. I thought it was well-stated.

    I don't mean to disparage your intentions. But as a very longtime software user, if I couldn't get a feature to work properly in an application that I'd only spent a few hours with, I would assume user error, not jump to the conclusion that it was a bug in the software.


    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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    John
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    Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/16 22:04:57 (permalink)
    I agree Bit one good reason I didn't bother posting. It was well covered by Bill's excellent post.

    Best
    John
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    daveny5
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    Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/16 23:27:01 (permalink)
    brundlefly



    I believe its because few instruments send note offs. Most instruments send a note on with a duration. At the end of the duration, the note stops. There's no need for a note off.


    Say what? Sorry, Dave, I know you have a ton of MIDI experience, but this makes no sense at all. The controller doesn't know how long the note is until you lift the key, so there's no way it could send a "duration" with the note-on. Besides, duration doesn't even exist in the MIDI spec, it's just a concept used by sequencers, and derived from the time between the Note On and the Note Off. I believe some sequencers store Note Ons and Note Offs, and some convert the time between them to a duration, but the durations has to be converted back to a separate Note Off to be sent as a MIDI message. I seem to remember reading that SONAR is among the latter, but I'd have to check.


    First off, I said "I believe..." I didn't say I was certain. However, if I am wrong, show me where the Note Off messages are. I don't see any. I'm only referring to Sonar.. I don't know what other sequencers do.


    post edited by daveny5 - 2009/08/16 23:29:18

    Dave
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    simpleman
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    Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/17 00:49:25 (permalink)
      As far as I can see, there is nothing in the MIDI “white pages”which specifies a standard course of action for Note Off message. Note On has a bunch of parameters associated with it, velocity, pan, pitch bend, aftertouch and so on. Duration is implied by the Note On action being driven. Event List does not show a Note Off value because by design no action is supposed to happen. What, however is available is the ability of a MIDI designer, hardware or software, to implement something of their choosing. It has what is called undefined addresses in the MIDI message table. With this in mind, an open ended assignment can be taken by having Sonar implement a branch in its code allowing a designer to do something with Note Off if they want too, otherwise Sonar will continue on its merry way. In other words a device or VST code will need to ping Sonar for Note Off messages and execute that branch. At least this is how I interpret this can be done. If it works in Cubase. Does Cubase Event List show Note Off? How is it implemented that it works for you.
    Then again if one wants to do something, like Expression for example, why not generate another Note On message.
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    Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/17 02:37:19 (permalink)
    First off, I said "I believe..." I didn't say I was certain. However, if I am wrong, show me where the Note Off messages are. I don't see any.


    I  think you're being a little disingenuous with that. The next sentence was much more definitive that "Most instruments send a note on with a duration." Anyway, as the OP pointed out, SONAR will not show you the Note Offs, but you can see them in any MIDI activity indicator, including the MIDI velocity meters in SONAR, and the one in system Tray of the Taskbar. Hit a key and hold it; you will see the activity indicators light up momentarily as the Note On comes through. Keep holding it as long as you like and then release the key; you wil see another flash as the Note Off comes thorugh.





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    frankandfree
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    Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/17 02:56:23 (permalink)
    Of course brundlefly is right with that. Just think about it: how should the device sending the Note On know at that time for how long you are going to hold the note? Sonar computes the duration only when the related Note Off is already received. This is a) for convenience, as you don't have to search the list for related On/Off pairs to change a note's length and b) for safety, as you cannot delete a note Off seperately and thus create a Note On event without relating Note Off, resulting in an endless hanging note.
    On the downside, you can't edit the velocity part of Note Off events, which is a real omission imo. With this value you would control eg the velocity of a release sample or the release time of a synth's ADSR envelope (if implemented in the receiving synth). An example of an instrument capable of this would be Kontakt.
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    brundlefly
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    Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/17 10:46:23 (permalink)
    On the downside, you can't edit the velocity part of Note Off events, which is a real omission imo.


    Good point. No reason why SONAR couldn't include Note-Off velocity as a parameter in the note event properties, and give you a switch to show either Note-On or Note-Off velocities in the PRV, or maybe even show the On velocity tail at the beginning of the event, and the Off velocity tail at the end simultaneously in two different colors. Seems like an easy implementation. I wonder why they haven't done it - not enough feature requests, I guess.


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    bvideo
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    Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/17 11:43:59 (permalink)
    From the information slowly accumulating about Ian's MIDI setup, he has the track MIDI settings right. Clearly, Sonar does not have a means to separately record and display stray note-offs, so there is no point in trying to look for them and edit them out of a track. There are some more likely possibilities.

    My next few questions to try to be of any further help would be to find out what the whole equipment chain is. I was surprised to hear about using both a midiman 4 x 4 USB and an Edirol UM-880. So there are two computers.(?) Also, Ian, I am sure you know the UM-880 has the capability of routing such that MIDI can be can be switched between ports, so you would have checked the setup there to make sure it is not causing the problem. I would also ask where in the MIDI chain the MIDI monitoring was done and what was seen.

    When you fixed the problem by changing the channel, did you edit the channel numbers in the track or rerecord? It's good you found a workaround, but your diagnosis of a Sonar bug leaves open the real issue.  Can the problem be isolated to playing back just one note on the errant port & channel or does it only happen in the context of a stream of notes? And does it happen every time? And when the errant note-off goes to the wrong port, does it go at the same time to the right port? (I.e. how did you determine it was coming from the other port's note off?)  Some of these Q's might help to reproduce this problem in a simpler environment so someone else could double check it.

    MIDI has mainly two different note-offs: 1) "note off" with any velocity, and 2) "note on" with velocity 0. DAWs could be different and still correct in how they represent or transmit note offs. Also, any equipment or driver in the MIDI chain needs to be correctly implemented with regard to "running status", which is a means to reduce the amount of data in a MIDI stream. Note-on-velocity-0 is more "compressible" within a stream of notes on&off, but potentially more buggy. I had a JLCooper MIDI patcher with a running status bug. They were going to charge me $75 to fix it.

    Another issue is the use of "all-notes-off", which at least one machine of mine (I don't remember which) used to turn off the last playing note on a port/channel. If some part of the chain were to misinterpret it (e.g. as a "panic") the music would be wrong.

    Another possibility: one sometimes must be extra careful when viewing the PRV so as not to be fooled by the appearance of the display. If a note has been "split" or if two of the same note overlap in time, it may appear as a single long note, but the earlier note-off will prevail. Also, I'm speculating, if a MIDI clip is slip-edited, possibly a note could be shortened on playback, even though it still appears correct in the event list .

    Bill B.
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    daveny5
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    Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/17 11:56:53 (permalink)
    brundlefly



    First off, I said "I believe..." I didn't say I was certain. However, if I am wrong, show me where the Note Off messages are. I don't see any.


    I  think you're being a little disingenuous with that. The next sentence was much more definitive that "Most instruments send a note on with a duration." Anyway, as the OP pointed out, SONAR will not show you the Note Offs, but you can see them in any MIDI activity indicator, including the MIDI velocity meters in SONAR, and the one in system Tray of the Taskbar. Hit a key and hold it; you will see the activity indicators light up momentarily as the Note On comes through. Keep holding it as long as you like and then release the key; you wil see another flash as the Note Off comes thorugh.


    Whatever...
    The bottom line is Sonar does not show the Note Offs in the Event List. Sounds like they are in the MIDI stream though.

    I've read that you can create a Note Off by using a Note On with a velocity of 0.

    post edited by daveny5 - 2009/08/17 12:06:27

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    Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/17 14:28:15 (permalink)
    The bottom line is Sonar does not show the Note Offs in the Event List. Sounds like they are in the MIDI stream though. I've read that you can create a Note Off by using a Note On with a velocity of 0.


    All true.

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    Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/18 06:02:46 (permalink)
    bvideo

    Many thanks for taking the time to consider my situation.

    From the information slowly accumulating about Ian's MIDI setup, he has the track MIDI settings right. Clearly, Sonar does not have a means to separately record and display stray note-offs, so there is no point in trying to look for them and edit them out of a track. There are some more likely possibilities.

    My next few questions to try to be of any further help would be to find out what the whole equipment chain is. I was surprised to hear about using both a midiman 4 x 4 USB and an Edirol UM-880. So there are two computers.(?)

    Yes. A 3.6ghz P4 DAW with 4GB RAM with the Midiman 4 X 4, and a MacPRO with 8GB RAM running Hauptwerk - it has the UM-880.


    Also, Ian, I am sure you know the UM-880 has the capability of routing such that MIDI can be can be switched between ports, so you would have checked the setup there to make sure it is not causing the problem.

    Confirmed. The same arrangement is used to play the instrument live. So, if I had patched across Ports I would have problems in performance.

     I would also ask where in the MIDI chain the MIDI monitoring was done and what was seen.

    At the Midiman Outs

    When you fixed the problem by changing the channel, did you edit the channel numbers in the track or rerecord? It's good you found a workaround, but your diagnosis of a Sonar bug leaves open the real issue.

    Maybe "bug" is the wrong word. Following on from some more research out there, especially the piece of cut and paste below, it seems that it is a "feature" which means even though Sonar ouputs midi notes off, one is unable to edit them in the events list. That is what I required.

    Can the problem be isolated to playing back just one note on the errant port & channel or does it only happen in the context of a stream of notes?

    Yes. I actually recorded a test track with two stops on (two notes on) which were then turned off by a note off from a different port (the keyboard with the same channel # as the two stops.

    And does it happen every time?

    Yes.

    And when the errant note-off goes to the wrong port, does it go at the same time to the right port? (I.e. how did you determine it was coming from the other port's note off?) 

    Easy coz the stops are on ch2 notes midi notes 51, and 52, and the two keys pressed had the same channel and midi note #s

    Some of these Q's might help to reproduce this problem in a simpler environment so someone else could double check it.

    MIDI has mainly two different note-offs: 1) "note off" with any velocity, and 2) "note on" with velocity 0. DAWs could be different and still correct in how they represent or transmit note offs. Also, any equipment or driver in the MIDI chain needs to be correctly implemented with regard to "running status", which is a means to reduce the amount of data in a MIDI stream. Note-on-velocity-0 is more "compressible" within a stream of notes on&off, but potentially more buggy. I had a JLCooper MIDI patcher with a running status bug. They were going to charge me $75 to fix it.

    Another issue is the use of "all-notes-off", which at least one machine of mine (I don't remember which) used to turn off the last playing note on a port/channel. If some part of the chain were to misinterpret it (e.g. as a "panic") the music would be wrong.

    Another possibility: one sometimes must be extra careful when viewing the PRV so as not to be fooled by the appearance of the display. If a note has been "split" or if two of the same note overlap in time, it may appear as a single long note, but the earlier note-off will prevail. Also, I'm speculating, if a MIDI clip is slip-edited, possibly a note could be shortened on playback, even though it still appears correct in the event list .

    Bill B.

    Why do some of my notes cut off shortly after they start? A MIDI channel does not support ensemble polyphony, which allows unisons (as in a trombone section with two trombones playing the same note). A MIDI channel supports only keyboard polyphony: On a keyboard, unisons can not occur because there is only one key for each MIDI note number. This limitation also occurs in MIDI because the MIDI "note off" message is associated with a key number rather than with any particular note. ("Note off" is misleading -- "key off" is more accurate.) But Cakewalk MIDI editing lets you make notes overlap. MIDI stores the key on and key off messages separately, but Cakewalk stores both together, as a note which has a start time and a duration. This  way, each note on is associated with a note off, even after cutting and pasting sections of music. But some problems occur, as shown below.

    The rest of this excellent webpage is here: http://www.bikexprt.com/cakewalk/midiprob.htm

    So, I think that this is simply how Sonar's MIDI has been designed.

    Moving the impacted stops to ch7 (there are no keyboards on ch7) remedies the issue. However, the only way to fix the already recorded tracks (organist now returned overseas) would seem to be to edit the duration of each stop which has been impacted. What a pain.

    Ian

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    ducatibruce2
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    Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/18 10:58:47 (permalink)
    brundlefly



    On the downside, you can't edit the velocity part of Note Off events, which is a real omission imo.


    Good point. No reason why SONAR couldn't include Note-Off velocity as a parameter in the note event properties, and give you a switch to show either Note-On or Note-Off velocities in the PRV, or maybe even show the On velocity tail at the beginning of the event, and the Off velocity tail at the end simultaneously in two different colors. Seems like an easy implementation. I wonder why they haven't done it - not enough feature requests, I guess.

    I'd guess the lack of feature requests is the result of very few things supporting/using the parameter. And those that do can give some unusual results - see http://sequence15.blogspot.com/2008/09/release-velocity.html for some examples & a mention of the difficulty in playing whilst being aware of the release velocity.
    A lot of things that do support ADSR manipulation on the fly do so using Control Change messages which are possibly a bit more "intuitive" & consistant in their application.

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    brundlefly
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    Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/18 11:25:56 (permalink)
    the difficulty in playing whilst being aware of the release velocity.


    I started to make a comment in my original post about the about the difficulty of timing the release to get the desired musical effect since the receiving synth can't start processing the release velocity until it receives the message when the key is all the way up. This is very different from a real instrument, which starts reponding o the "release" action of the performer as soon as it starts to change. Mod wheels, breath controllers and the like are a lot more intuitive in this respect.

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    ducatibruce2
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    Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/18 11:26:46 (permalink)
    <snip>
    Moving the impacted stops to ch7 (there are no keyboards on ch7) remedies the issue. However, the only way to fix the already recorded tracks (organist now returned overseas) would seem to be to edit the duration of each stop which has been impacted. What a pain.

    Ian
    When you say "there are no keyboards on ch7" do you mean that there were sound producing events (Note Ons & Offs) on the previous problematic channel? And are the "stop" events are some sort of patch modifier?
     
    If so, I think the problem is not with Sonar but how the midi data was routed to record. I'm not aware of anything that, having received a note on midi message, will then recognise a matching note off as a patch modifier because there is another matching note off arriving at some point in the future (even though there are any number of other patch modifying matching note offs in the interim) that is the "stop making the noise" note off (unless it received & analysed/parsed the entire stream/file before starting "playback")
    . The patch modifier note off events have to be recorded on their own channel.
     
    Generally, when first playing/testing with unfamiliar equipment I will route it into Sonar, turn Local Control off on the midi source, and in Sonar input echo the midi data back to source so that any routing anomalies are apparent when you don't hear what you played.
     
    Apologies if I've got hold of the wrong end of the stick & since I've never seen a note off without a matching note on I can't suggest anything in the way of easy editing to resolve the problem with the recorded data.

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