Events List Does Not Display Notes Off

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bvideo
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Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/18 11:35:18 (permalink)
solotibia



Why do some of my notes cut off shortly after they start? A MIDI channel does not support ensemble polyphony, which allows unisons (as in a trombone section with two trombones playing the same note). A MIDI channel supports only keyboard polyphony: On a keyboard, unisons can not occur because there is only one key for each MIDI note number. This limitation also occurs in MIDI because the MIDI "note off" message is associated with a key number rather than with any particular note. ("Note off" is misleading -- "key off" is more accurate.) But Cakewalk MIDI editing lets you make notes overlap. MIDI stores the key on and key off messages separately, but Cakewalk stores both together, as a note which has a start time and a duration. This  way, each note on is associated with a note off, even after cutting and pasting sections of music. But some problems occur, as shown below.


Ian

Ian, if the above quote has a special meaning to you, then it appears Sonar implemented the notes off during recording. It seems you have seen "short" durations in the "organ stop" track. Once you determine it has been recorded, there is not much more to be gained diagnosing the playback. What really counts is the recording.

Ensemble recording was intended in MIDI to be accomplished by separate channels on a single cable or separate cables. Naturally, with a multiport MIDI interface, the ports are (or should be) equivalent inside the computer to a cable outside the computer. In your case, you have two multiport interfaces and you are using two cables to connect them. If "stops" were recorded correctly across one cable at the same time notes were recorded across the other cable, the software should not have garbled the two. But now it seems most important to monitor the MIDI coming in to Sonar during the performance, because that is when the problem happened. What's more, if this is a Sonar bug, anyone who is simultaneously recording multiple MIDI instruments (say two keyboards) using the same channel on separate ports would be pretty likely to see the same problem.

Now that the picture is becoming more clear, did you find that the truncated "stop" occurred just at the same time a "note" on the same channel/other port occurred? (Their endpoints would line up in a PRV.) Or did a note get made longer? In the first case, a note-off event was somehow duplicated to the other port. In the second case, the note-off was somehow misdirected to the other port. The question still remains which element in the chain duplicated or misdirected the note off.

I suppose another important question is whether the organ software(?) you are using is intended to be used on multiple ports. Or does it require using non-overlapping channel sets?

  Bill B.
#31
brundlefly
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Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/18 11:40:16 (permalink)
Generally, when first playing/testing with unfamiliar equipment I will route it into Sonar, turn Local Control off on the midi source, and in Sonar input echo the midi data back to source so that any routing anomalies are apparent when you don't hear what you played.


FYI - I asked earlier if the OP was using input echo rather than local control to drive the external synths, and he confirmed that he was. Nevertheless, the problem reportedly occurs only on playback of the recorded parts. I suspect that this might be because the two parts originally both on channel 2 of the different ports were not being played and recorded simultaneously.

I kind of gave up on this issue when I ran into the "It's a SONAR bug" wall, but bvideo seems to be getting further by applying diplomacy directly to the wound.



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#32
bvideo
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Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/18 12:15:21 (permalink)
brundlefly



Generally, when first playing/testing with unfamiliar equipment I will route it into Sonar, turn Local Control off on the midi source, and in Sonar input echo the midi data back to source so that any routing anomalies are apparent when you don't hear what you played.


FYI - I asked earlier if the OP was using input echo rather than local control to drive the external synths, and he confirmed that he was. Nevertheless, the problem reportedly occurs only on playback of the recorded parts. I suspect that this might be because the two parts originally both on channel 2 of the different ports were not being played and recorded simultaneously.

I kind of gave up on this issue when I ran into the "It's a SONAR bug" wall, but bvideo seems to be getting further by applying diplomacy directly to the wound.

Well so much for diplomacy; I now believe it is a Sonar bug. I did an experiment.

The setup:
Sonar 8.3.1 (also see my signature).
A Roland Dinosaur-50 transmitting/receiving on channel 2, local control off.
A Roland A90 transmitting on channel 2.
The two synths attached to separate input and output ports of a MOTU midi express 128.
Two tracks in Sonar, one configured to receive & send on the D50, the other on the A90.
Each synth shows the right meter movement when played individually and simultaneously (with the tracks enabled). A flash on a note-on and a tiny flash with a note off. (Note - I don't use "automatically echo MIDI on the selected track").
I intend the D50 to represent Ian's stops and the A90 to represent Ian's keyboard, but just channel 2 of each.

The experiment:
I set both tracks into record, and started recording. I held a cluster of notes on the D50. Then I played a sequence of notes on the A90, including the same notes held on the D50. The notes kept playing just fine on the D50. BUT - I could see the notes on the waveform getting stopped as I played on the A90!!! When I stopped recording, the waveforms clearly showed the recorded D50 notes stopped way early. I confirmed it by recording again & playing a single note on the D50 and playing notes on the A90. As soon as I played the same note (not released!) on the A90, the waveform of the note on the D50 track stopped. However, the D50 note did not stop. For kicks, I confirmed the same behavior happens when I start a note on the A90 and then play the same note on the D50. The behavior is symmetric.

The bug of recording a short note seems to occur at the moment of note-on from the same note on the same channel on a different port. This doesn't affect the notes being echoed during recording. I'd say this is an exact match to the problem seen by Ian.

I'm stunned! But I must admit I never tried recording simultaneously from multiple keyboards (edit - specifically multiple keyboards on the same channel. I keep them on separate channels for various reasons)

Bill B.

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#33
John
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Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/18 12:58:04 (permalink)
I'm not sure what all this is all about. In Sonar each note event has a duration. It is graphically represented by the length of the note in the PRV and also in the track view. IN the PRV that duration can be edited to what ever value one wishes. Note off is not needed here it is implied with the duration length. I can't see how adding a note off event will add any usefulness. 

Best
John
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drewfx1
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Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/18 15:31:15 (permalink)
I'm stunned! But I must admit I never tried recording simultaneously from multiple keyboards (edit - specifically multiple keyboards on the same channel. I keep them on separate channels for various reasons)
Bill B.

I wouldn't have believed it, but I can confirm as well: 2 keyboards on different ports/same Midi channel=sustained notes on one kbd cut off by note on on the 2nd kbd. I was very careful to make sure there were no merges/loops to cause the problem. Recording on different Midi channels solves the problem.

Has anyone reported this yet?

As for note offs not displaying seperately, then it would both be hard to pair them with the note ons, and if you could delete the note off only (or change the note#/channel/anything but the timing and note off velocity), you'd have a mess with stuck notes. It makes sense to me to show it as duration in the event list.

Also, FYI, certain e-mu HW (at least) does recognize note off velocity.

drewfx
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brundlefly
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Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/18 16:01:59 (permalink)
The bug of recording a short note seems to occur at the moment of note-on from the same note on the same channel on a different port. This doesn't affect the notes being echoed during recording. I'd say this is an exact match to the problem seen by Ian.


That's pretty interesting, Bill  Good work. And good job of distilling the problem down to an easily replicated test. Incidentally, I find myself marveling at the similarity in our gear collections (prehistoric and otherwise) I could replicate your setup almost to the letter.

I guess I should start buttering my hat to make the eating of it a little more enjoyable.

Sorry, Ian. You're right, I'm wrong. Please accept my apologies for questioning your troubleshooting skills, and challenging the logic of of your conclusion.

It would be interesting to try replicating this on older versions of SONAR, and see how far back it goes. I have 6 and 7 still installed, so that would be pretty easy. I'd have to dig up the CD for S4 if necessary, and before that, it's all the way back to PA9.



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dantarbill
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Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/18 16:34:34 (permalink)
John


I'm not sure what all this is all about. In Sonar each note event has a duration. It is graphically represented by the length of the note in the PRV and also in the track view. IN the PRV that duration can be edited to what ever value one wishes. Note off is not needed here it is implied with the duration length. I can't see how adding a note off event will add any usefulness. 


I haven't read this entire thread, because the amount of misinformation was just too thick to deal with.  But...

A MIDI note is represented in SONAR as if it were a NOTE ON (with a velocity) and a duration.  This IS NOT what falls out of the MIDI port when SONAR renders MIDI.  The actual MIDI data is a pair of events...a NOTE ON with a non-zero velocity and...later...when the note is supposed to terminate, a NOTE ON with a velocity of ZERO.  (There may be a release velocity, but I don't know off hand how that's implemented.)

If this has already been explained previously, then excuse my laziness.

Now that I've un-lazied myself...bvideo's first post should have pretty much ended the entire thread.

Dan Tarbill
#37
John
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Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/18 16:50:47 (permalink)
Dan again I have no clue what you are objecting to in my post. I am talking about editing note durations within Sonar. I see nothing I said that is wrong.

Best
John
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frankandfree
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Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/18 18:02:23 (permalink)

Now that I've un-lazied myself...bvideo's first post should have pretty much ended the entire thread.


I'm glad it hasn't. First I find it interesting and second it's outcome is the finding of a bug that could be confirmed and made reproducable with an easy receipt. That's a good thing in my book. I hope it will get reported and fixed for future releases. Reading the thread would have helped in this case.

Re usefullness of viewing/editing Note Off events:  How fast I release a key is rather a crucial parameter on a real piano so I'd think good MIDI piano keybords will account for that and transmit Note Off with velocity (rather than using Note On with velocity = zero) as well as I think good piano plugins will listen and react accordingly eg by playing a different release sample. That assumed, how wouldn't it be a good thing to be able to grab and edit the messages transporting that parameter? And in case the keyboard does send NoteOn with velocity Zero, why wouldn't it be a good idea to be able to transform them to Note Offs when you like to add that feature manually by editing? I know for sure Kontakt can react to release velocity (my Keyboard doesn't send it), why would you want your DAW not be able to work with it? I'd be glad for any accessable parameter to refine a performance.
I am not talking about a permanent change, Note On/Duration has it's obvious advantage, but in the end it is just an alternative way to view events. Both have advantages, so both are useful. Why not switch between them as needed?

I think missing out release velocity is cutting of a relevant part of the keyboard performance. Which doesn't matter too much at this end, seeing what a lousy keyboard player I am  but when I think on a recording it would sound all the same no matter how fast I release a string on my guitar... eeek


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drewfx1
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Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/18 18:04:26 (permalink)
dantarbill

when the note is supposed to terminate, a NOTE ON with a velocity of ZERO.  (There may be a release velocity, but I don't know off hand how that's implemented.)


Just to be absolutely clear, there are 2 ways a note off can be represented in the Midi spec:

1. As you state, a note-on with a velocity of zero is understood to be interpreted as a note-off. There is no note-off velocity in this case. (note-on status byte, followed by note# and velocity=0 data bytes)

2. A note-off status byte, followed by note# and note-off velocity data bytes.

drewfx
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brundlefly
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Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/18 18:46:15 (permalink)
I did some of my own testing on this, and I think I've found the simplest way possible to demonstrate the problem - only one keyboard controller and no synths needed:
 
1. Create a SONAR project with a single MIDI track in it, and no audio tracks.
 
2. Assign the input of that track to a MIDI In port in OMNI mode (or a specific channel, but you must match that channel with your controller output).
 
3. Assign the Output to any MIDI Out (including a soft synth's input - it doesn't matter).
 
4. Run a cable from the Out of the first MIDI I/O pair to another physical MIDI In that is enabled in SONAR's MIDI Devices setup.
 
5. Enable Input Echo on the track, and arm the track for recording.
 
6. Start recording, play a single MIDI note on your controller, and hold it for a second or two.
 
7. Stop recording and look at the length of the clip created and the MIDI event in it; they will both be 2-4 ticks long (MIDI echo latency).



So it seems to me we’ve got a couple of problems here:
 
First, Even if you aren't echoing the MIDI data to a physical port (the echo is to a soft synth), somehow that Note-On is being sent to at least one other physical out. And second, when that Note-On comes in the second port, it is being misinterpreted as being on the first port and stops the note being held by the controller connected to that port.
 
Testing with two tracks showed that it's the returning Note-On that stops the original note, rather than the Note-Off, just as bvideo reported.
 
BUT... it only happens during recording. Stop recording (even with the track still armed), and there is no problem playing in real time with this setup.
 
S7 has the same problem; I have not tested in S6 or earlier.



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#41
bvideo
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Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/18 19:22:17 (permalink)
Here's a theory about where to find the bug in the code.

When a note-on arrives, DAW software (or any instrument, really) should check to see if there is already a note "running" on that port, channel, and note number. If so, it should terminate that note and start a new note. The Sonar bug is that this checking/terminating is happening for all ports, not just the port where the note-on arrived. Note that "terminating that note" does not require echoing any events, just making the proper notation in the data recorded for the track (c.f. duration). A track should never contain simultaneous notes on any single note-number & single channel. Anyway, this kind of bug would explain why the playback is not interrupted even though the recorded note is truncated. Naturally, on playback the note would be truncated.

I'm sure there are drum-like machines that mostly don't need note-off, and maybe don't transmit them. That's one big reason the checking/terminating should be done.

On the somewhat tangential subject of release velocity, I agree Sonar would be a little better if it recorded the release velocity and allowed it to be edited. But I still think duration is the right way to link note-on and note-off. I don't happen to have any equipment that cares, though, and until now I don't remember it coming up in a thread.

As far as reporting the bug officially, Ian, would you like to do the honors?

Bill B.
#42
brundlefly
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Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/18 20:01:29 (permalink)
A track should never contain simultaneous notes on any single note-number & single channel.


But it could have the note-off being deferred by CC 64 (sustain) event while another note Note On with the same key number comes in on the same channel. I have this all the time in my piano playing. Effectively you do have two of the same not playing at the same time, and most polyphonic synths will use two voices to do this.

Anyway, this kind of bug would explain why the playback is not interrupted even though the recorded note is truncated.


I think the reason you don't hear the truncation while recording is simply that the misrouted Note-On coming into the port track is not echoed back out again to the synth, although it does get recorded so you hear it on playback. If it were echoed, my test setup would have created a MIDI loop.



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drewfx1
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Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/18 20:28:47 (permalink)
brundlefly

But it could have the note-off being deferred by CC 64 (sustain) event while another note Note On with the same key number comes in on the same channel. I have this all the time in my piano playing. Effectively you do have two of the same not playing at the same time, and most polyphonic synths will use two voices to do this.

The note-off is still sent to the synth though; it's just ignored by the synth if sustain (or sostenuto) is on.


I think the reason you don't hear the truncation while recording is simply that the misrouted Note-On coming into the port track is not echoed back out again to the synth, although it does get recorded so you hear it on playback. If it were echoed, my test setup would have created a MIDI loop.

I don't think I'd call it "misrouted". It sounds like maybe they just forgot to check port# in the note-on structure, so they create a note off whenever a "duplicate" note-on comes in on the same channel.

drewfx
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brundlefly
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Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/18 20:39:26 (permalink)
The note-off is still sent to the synth though; it's just ignored by the synth if sustain (or sostenuto) is on.


Not true. On playback of a sustained note, the note off (or note on with 0 vel) is not sent until you release the sustain.

It sounds like maybe they just forgot to check port# in the note-on structure


I don't know what you mean by this. Have you read the rest of the thread?

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bvideo
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Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/18 20:45:07 (permalink)
Brundlefly,
 Good point about the sustain pedal. I think the piano might be an interesting and complicated case. The direct sound of the wire needs to be stopped and restarted, I think, or maybe whacking a wiggling wire should use a different sample. But other parts of the sound, like resonance might continue and build up.

If there has been a MIDI note off, but the sustain pedal is down, and another note comes in, I think it is up to the synth to decide how to correctly make sound for a retrigger. But a DAW should still never offer a second note without first sending note off. There is no "correct" algorithm for terminating just one of two outstanding notes.

About your single instrument multiple port scenario, I was following it up to your point 7 where you said "they will both be 2-4 ticks long". At that point, I wasn't sure where two events would be seen if there is only one track. If there were two tracks, I can imagine how one of them would get a short note, but not two. But since we have the same equipment list, I should just try it and see.

Bill B.
#46
brundlefly
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Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/18 20:55:43 (permalink)
I was following it up to your point 7 where you said "they will both be 2-4 ticks long". At that point, I wasn't sure where two events would be seen if there is only one track.


Sorry. Sloppy wording. I meant "both the note event, and the clip", since a clip for a single note event starts and ends at the note boundaries.

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bvideo
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Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/28 10:34:52 (permalink)
I sent a support email to Cakewalk. They responded that I should "Try first looking at your ClockWorks application that came with your MOTU Midi Express to make sure you have your internal routing setup correctly to send to
SONAR." And also "If this does not work, let me know and I will look into this issue further." However, no reply method was provided, so I had to resubmit my report.

Isn't there some better way to report bugs, especially when there is a recipe to reproduce?

Bill B.
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brundlefly
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Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/08/28 10:48:18 (permalink)
I sent a support email to Cakewalk. They responded that I should "Try first looking at your ClockWorks application that came with your MOTU Midi Express to make sure you have your internal routing setup correctly to send to SONAR." And also "If this does not work, let me know and I will look into this issue further." However, no reply method was provided, so I had to resubmit my report.


I submitted a report via the web reporting tool, but I never hear anything back from that. I gave them the recipe that I documented here, involving looping back the MIDI output with a single controller. I also pointed out that it happens even if you have the output of the first MIDI track assigned to a soft synth, which is really nutty. I am using the 2x2 MIDI ports on my 1820m. Given that you, I and the OP all experienced this with different hardware, I think we can rule that out.



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#49
bvideo
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Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/09/02 19:20:20 (permalink)
After three rounds of messages with Sonar tech support, they report "unable to recreate" the bug and recommend that I contact MOTU (the midi express 128). I am very skeptical that the midi interface causes the problem, especially since Sonar's meters don't show any problems. Has anyone else reported it? I am sure there must be other interfaces that people on this thread used to recreate the problem.

Here was my instruction set I sent in my last email report to Cake:

Here is my setup and exactly how I used the meters to check it:

Setup
-----
Track 1 is set to receive from Port 1 channel 2. Keyboard 1 output is plugged into interface Port 1 input, transmitting on channel 2. Track 1 set to transmit on Port 1 channel 2.
Track 2 is set to receive from port 2 channel 2. Keyboard 2 plugged into port 2, transmitting on channel 2. Track 2 set to transmit on Port 2 channel 2.
(For the listening part of this test, both keyboards have their inputs connected to the interface outputs of the same port number as their outputs, and both have local control off.)

How to check with the meters -- important
-----------------------------------------
Set echo enable on both tracks.
Press and hold a key on keyboard 1. Note the MIDI velocity meter on track 1 lights and the meter on track 2 does NOT light.
Release the key on keyboard 1. Note the little bar at the top of the meter lights up on track 1 and does NOT light up on track 2.
Now verify the other keyboard lights up only its own meters.

The IMPORTANT part: this verifies a setup where Sonar will record events from keyboard 1 ONLY on track 1 and from keyboard 2 ONLY on track 2.

Now do the experiment.
---------------------
Set both tracks to record enable.
Press record and watch the transport start to move.
Press and hold C5 on keyboard 1. Observe the line being drawn on track 1. Keep holding.
Now press and hold C5 on keyboard 2. Observe the line on track 1 stops (!!!) and a line on track 2 starts.
Release both keys.
Now inspect the two track event lists. Track 1 has only the note from keyboard 1, except that it is truncated, compared with the length of time the key was held. Track 2 has only the note from keyboard 2.

If you were listening to the two keyboards during recording, it is interesting, because even though the recorded note on track 1 is truncated, keyboard 1 continued to play its note until releasing its own key. So while performing, no problem would be heard.

Conclusion
----------
This test indicates that a NOTE ON from port 2 channel 2 caused Sonar to truncate the note in progress on port 1 channel 2. Because of the track setup, Sonar does not record port 2's notes on track 1, but there is interference anyway. The workaround is to use two different channels when recording from two different ports. Of course this places a limit on Sonar's recording on simultaneous channels to a total of 16, even with a multiport interface.

#50
ducatibruce2
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Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/09/02 21:42:57 (permalink)

After three rounds of messages with Sonar tech support, they report "unable to recreate" the bug and recommend

Next time I fire up the DAW I'll have a try & report back.
I wonder if the same issue occurs if the input ports are on separate devices/interfaces rather than on the same device/interface. Something I'll check I guess.
post edited by ducatibruce2 - 2009/09/02 21:44:32

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#51
brundlefly
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Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/09/02 22:42:28 (permalink)
I am sure there must be other interfaces that people on this thread used to recreate the problem.


As I mentioned above, I was able to reproduce the problem with a different configuration on my 1820m, which is a PCI interface. I'll fire up the old M-Audio Omnistudio USB on my laptop with SONAR 6 and 7, and we'll see what that gets us.

Any chance you can get me in touch with the guy that worked with you from Cakewalk? I never hear form those guys when I log problem reports.

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#52
bvideo
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Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/09/02 23:31:35 (permalink)
Thanks brundlefly. Check yr pm.

I have resent the info as a problem report instead of a tech support request.

Edit- after 5 emails from me to tech support, they finally acknowledged it's their bug.
post edited by bvideo - 2009/09/04 17:10:39
#53
RichardHK
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Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/09/02 23:35:57 (permalink)
>Why do some of my notes cut off shortly after they start? <

And as Bill notes above, check your PRV for unintended overlapping notes too. Editing in the PRV with the mouse can often drop a note here and there!! And a hidden note that finishes earlier than the displayed note on top can kill your note! Not just intended ensembles.
 
Sorry for the big type. Wish this forum editor could adjust font size. :)
 
Edit: Just seen a load of 'bug' messages after posting this. Should have read whole thread first! But my observation still stands, and I also support fact that bugs are present in the Sonar MIDI implementation as shown on my older thread where cutting n pasting controller lane data leaves orphan data hanging around to complicate editing. Seems that bugs are not just from recent controller lane updates, but dating back to earlier TTS Cakewalk software too! Another example for Sonar to note - fix core app bugs before/as well as keep adding more features. Anyone who has done software programming knows that adding features to already buggy code just adds more complexity and hides those bugs even more. MIDI is pure maths so should be easy to fix, right? :(
  
post edited by RichardHK - 2009/09/02 23:49:43

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#54
bvideo
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Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/09/03 00:49:38 (permalink)
RichardHK


...
 
Sorry for the big type. Wish this forum editor could adjust font size. :)
...
 
 
  



Isn't there a font size setting in your browser? There is in mine (Seamonkey: view->text zoom) and it works just fine on this forum.

Bill B.
#55
RichardHK
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Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/09/03 01:23:40 (permalink)
Hi Bill,

Problem not with browser (I think!) as type size is inherited along with other sizes. I can resize in browser, but all relative. Other forums I use have a font tool to change size, font, etc, just like a word processor. That's what I haven't seen here (yet).
 
OP used a large type that I could not then change. Here now, I am typing same size as your message, which is the norm. At least we cannot blame MIDI or Sonar for this anomoly, and could also be a user problem. ;)
post edited by RichardHK - 2009/09/03 01:25:24

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#56
brundlefly
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Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2009/09/03 02:42:54 (permalink)
I'll fire up the old M-Audio Omnistudio USB on my laptop with SONAR 6 and 7, and we'll see what that gets us.


Okay. I finally got a chance to do this, and I was able to replicate the problem again. But I realized after I posted earlier that I would have to use the Omnistudio alongside the 1820m on my DAW, because the Omnistudio has only one I/O pair of MIDI ports. Actually this made the case for a bug even stronger, because the port interference is across totally unrelated devices in this case. Here's the setup (very similar to my earlier post):

1. Created a SONAR project with a single MIDI track in it, and no audio tracks. 
  
2. Assigned the Input of that track to MIDI In 2 on the 1820m, set to receive only on channel 1 (not Omni).
  
3. Assigned the Output of the track to MIDI Out 2 on the 1820m. 
  
4. Ran a cable from MIDI Out 2 on the 1820m to the MIDI In on the Omnistudio.
  
5. Enabled Input Echo on the track, and armed the track for recording. 
  
6. Started recording, played a single note on my controller, sending to MIDI In 2 on the 1820m on channel 1, and held it for 3-4 seconds. 
  
7. When I stopped recording, the recorded clip that should have been a measure or more long was just a thin vertical line, because the note being received and recorded on the E-MU's MIDI IN 2 was truncated by the same event being echoed to MIDI In on the Omnistudio, even though that MIDI port was not even assigned as input to anything in this one-track project.



For good measure, I tested several different channels, and found that the problem persisted across all of them.


One thing I as not able to replicate from my earlier test was having the MIDI Out assigned to a soft synth, and still having it echoed to the hardware Out. I think I must have been mistaken about that somehow.


Anyway, here we have a case where MIDI data coming in on a port on one piece of hardware is affecting MIDI being recorded on the same channel of a port on a completely different piece of hardware, not even sharing the same I/O bus on the computer (one PCI, one USB). That's not a hardware configuration issue or driver problem, that's a SONAR bug.

 

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#57
SilkTone
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Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2010/02/10 18:54:49 (permalink)
Guys, this is yet another symptom of this bug, I am 100% convinced of it. I have been trying for a year now to get Cakewalk to see that there is a serious problem with Sonar's MIDI implementation, but so far zero luck.

Also see this thread.

The root problem is that when Sonar was converted to a multithreaded engine, they forgot to update their MIDI implementation to be multi-threaded safe. Basically they share a single MIDI buffer between all threads, and when multiple MIDI sources send events around (as well as VSTis that send MIDI data out), the events in this single buffer get overwritten while another thread is trying to process it. I have been able to confirm this in a debugger where the contents of the MIDI buffer changes halfway through a VST's callback function where it handles MIDI events. See the linked website for a detailed description, as well as a plugin I wrote (with source code) and a Sonar project that can be used to expose the bug in different ways.

This is a serious bug but for some strange reason Cakewalk absolutely refuses to investigate this. I am so sick of trying to get them to even acknowledge the bug. Today I called tech support and had a simple setup where I duplicated this bug and I wanted them to tell me exactly what I was supposedly doing wrong to get the results I was getting. No luck, waiting for them to email me with their own test results.

The amount of effort I put into bringing this bug to Cakewalk's attention, combined with their utter lack of interest on their part boggles my mind. I don't care about getting a gold star on my forehead, I want them to fix this ******* bug so that Sonar is finally able to do basic MIDI routing properly. Is that too much to ask for?
post edited by SilkTone - 2010/02/10 18:58:21

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#58
Rbh
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Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2010/02/10 19:46:09 (permalink)
I believe note off is germane to the midi spec. It can be used as a control separate from the note on. Duration is expressed with respect to the clock rate. Note off can have a velocity value associated with it as well.

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#59
SilkTone
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Re:Events List Does Not Display Notes Off 2010/02/11 11:59:46 (permalink)
I can confirm that I have been able to reproduce the "MIDI Crosstalk Bug" using two MIDI keyboards.

Steps:

1. Start with a blank project.
2. Insert a new MIDI track: Set it's input to "[name of external keyboard 1] - Omni"
3. Insert another new MIDI track: Set it's input to "[name of external keyboard 2] - Omni"
4. Put both MIDI tracks into record.
5. Start recording.
6. On the 1st MIDI keyboard, press and hold a chord.
7. While holding the chord on the 1st keyboard, press the same keys on the second keyboard.
8. Stop recording.

Notice that as soon as the corresponding keys on the 2nd keyboard were pressed, the notes in the clip of the 1st keyboad were cut short.

When you change both inputs from "Omni" to "Ch. 1", the results are exactly the same.

[Scratching head...] has no-one ever needed to do something similar in the past few years? It absolutely boggles my mind that such a major bug can exist in Sonar for so long. I have personally been begging Cakewalk to look into this for a year now, and of course I have been ignored.  I can't believe that a major bug exists in Sonar that is so simple to reproduce, and so simple to imagine that other people would need to record two MIDI sources at the same time, yet here we are.
 
EDIT:
I can understand why there are so many non-belivers of this bug (including Cakewalk): It is such a stupid bug, and so difficult to image that it can exist, that people just always asume it must be a routing problem. If you don't believe it, then try it yourself. There have been multiple ways described now to duplicate this bug.
post edited by SilkTone - 2010/02/11 12:42:38

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#60
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